Should I buy ARC VTM 200 or 7BSST2?

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Waker

Should I buy ARC VTM 200 or 7BSST2?
« on: 22 Feb 2010, 09:13 pm »
I have alway planned on upgrading from my older 4BSST to new 7BSSTS, but I have an opportunity to acquire a pair of trade-in Audio Research Vacuum Tube Monoblock 200 WPC amps, about six years old.  I have not heard them in the showroom yet, nor have I ever heard the 7Bs.  I will be hearing the VTMs this week, but my dealer does not have a pair of 7Bs in the showroom or in stock. (For JT, my dealer is here in Mpls, known as Audio Perfection.)  I have heard AR amps in the past.  These AR amps are priced at $6650, the 7Bs at the MSRP of $8390. The cost of retubing the AR amps with tubes supplied by AR is $1600, bringing the cost up to about equal to the 7Bs.  Funny how that works out. 

Sound quality aside, the advantages of the Brystons are that they are new, have a limitless warranty, cost nothing in upkeep, and run cooler.  A plus for the AR amps is that I could resell them in a few years for close to what I paid. A big advantage with the 7Bs is their endless power into my demanding Maggie 3.6 speakers, whereas the AR amps would be at the minimum power needed, and are even less than my current 4BSST. 

In sound quality, I can predict the 7Bs as providing me with a quantum leap in dynamics and detail, with a solid-state signature that is closer to tube sound than ever before.  From what I have read about the AR VTM 200s, they do not provide a lush, liquid tube sound, rather, they are brutally honest, with a giant sound stage and central imaging, with huge air and dynamics that always impress. But they can also be somewhat hard in the upper ranges, revealing everything that is good and bad in a recording, thus, they do not present an overly warm sound, perhaps not even as much as the 7Bs may.  And this is where I hope some of you can provide me insight from your many experiences over the years.  Please give me your unbiased opinions. Yes, I implore the Bryston faithful, being confident you are all at peace in having arrived at your own secure places in your arduous journeys and are able to look back with fondness and respect on tube gear you may have heard or owned.

In the end, you may say I have to go with the sound I like, but I know there is insight out there I do not yet possess, plus this stuff is just plain fun to talk about.         

James Tanner

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Re: Should I buy ARC VTM 200 or 7BSST2?
« Reply #1 on: 22 Feb 2010, 09:22 pm »
I’m incredibly biased of course but there is a magic with Bryston and Magnepan. :D 

Jim Whiny the owner of Magnepan has used Bryston amplifiers on his personal system for many years (MG20’s for  L.C.R. -  MM3.6’ s for Surrounds).

James


werd

Re: Should I buy ARC VTM 200 or 7BSST2?
« Reply #2 on: 22 Feb 2010, 09:28 pm »
Unbiased as i can be with the maggies and their  extremely hard to please sensitivity. Everything that you mentioned about the ARC amp may just not be apparent. Go as big as power you can get with those. It just happens to be the Bryston here. So you should probably go with the Bryston amps.

vegasdave

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Re: Should I buy ARC VTM 200 or 7BSST2?
« Reply #3 on: 22 Feb 2010, 10:25 pm »
Listen and you'll decide. Both are superb amps.

toobluvr

Re: Should I buy ARC VTM 200 or 7BSST2?
« Reply #4 on: 23 Feb 2010, 06:03 pm »
Look at where you are posting!!    :o

If you want a less biased opinion, ask the question in a less biased place.
No disrespect to Bryston or its fanboys.


Laundrew

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Re: Should I buy ARC VTM 200 or 7BSST2?
« Reply #5 on: 23 Feb 2010, 06:58 pm »
Hello Waker,

I agree with vegasdave, it is a purchase you will have to live with and enjoy - never easy, is it :wink: Any chance of posting a photo of the Audio Research Vacuum Tube Monoblocks :drool:

Be well....

95Dyna

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Re: Should I buy ARC VTM 200 or 7BSST2?
« Reply #6 on: 23 Feb 2010, 08:31 pm »
Look at where you are posting!!    :o

If you want a less biased opinion, ask the question in a less biased place.
No disrespect to Bryston or its fanboys.

Yeah waker, You could just ask toobluvr for his unbiased opinion and whilst doing so pay no attention to his handle.  And, toobluvr, please consider that walker is comparing a specific SS amp to a specific tube amp hoping to find somebody who has heard both.  There is a higher probability of finding such a user on a Bryston or ARC users group forum.  If I hear that word fanboy one more time on here......please give it a rest as it is an inflammatory word that goes against the spirit of our forum.

CABrystonOwner10

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Re: Should I buy ARC VTM 200 or 7BSST2?
« Reply #7 on: 23 Feb 2010, 08:34 pm »
Hi Walker,

PLEASE do post your impressions after hearing the VT's. I really want to know if your impression matches ours. Sorry for the long-winded post.

We have had experiences with VT200 (my hand-me-down from my brother), VT200 MKII (friend's), VT200M (dealer) and Bryston 7BSST2 (family -> brother -> sister). All four drove the Thiel CS3.7. We used ARC CD's incl. CD 7 and LS 26 and Ref to drive the amplifiers so this is mostly an ARC system with 7B plugged into the chain.

The 3.7s love power and the VT's were rated at the minimum of what 3.7 prefers, so this may make a decent comparison for you.

Compared to 7B, the VT is slightly more polite, more rounded in each note. Cymbal rolls off just a hair sooner and a hair less airy. Bass is full and well controlled but ever so slightly less dynamic or more polite. Mid range is where the 7B is obviously richer revealing more harmonics. VT is wonderful too but just a hair less "sweet".   

In revealing details, the VT seems to reveal about 20% less than what we heard through the 7B. The 7B clearly revealed instruments and lines that were somewhat hidden or hard to hear through the VT. We were surprised by the amount of difference in details. This is not caused by tipped-up frequency either, it is true musical notes played by instruments that were hidden before. The 7B separated these lines for us.

The VT has a larger sound stage that extends deeper to the back of the speakers, taller to the ceiling and wider to the side. The 7B is slightly smaller side to side, shorter and layering is slightly more shallow. For the VT, it is like I am sitting up closer to the orchestra so it is laid out larger in general. For the 7B, I am a few rows back so it is slightly narrower and shallower.

The VT gives a "rounded", slightly rolled-off but slightly denser image. The 7B gives a crystal clear but less dense image. We prefer the 7B for all that we can hear but you may like the "sensation" of having a dense object suspended in space. The differences are slight but taste-specific.

The 7B has none of the hard, ear-killing solid state noise. In many ways, it sounds like an excellent tube amplifier. As solid state strives to sound like the best of tubes and tubes strive to sound like the best of solid state, I would say the 7B (28B?) comes darn close to the ideal range.

In terms of realism, both VT and 7B were quite adapt at being accurate with the 7B better by enough to make us notice. WHere we thought the VT's were realism champs before, the 7Bs outdo them with that much more information. THe shades of tonal changes coming from a single violin string being struck are that much more vivid. This is not a slight difference but clearly audible.

Added: We did not find the VT to be "harder" in the upper range. May be leaner and with Less details than the 7B. I use "lean" because lean does not heard our ears. "Hard" as in typical solid-state "hard" and "etchy" will ring our ears and chase us out of the room.

Added: In terms of honesty in reproduction, neither the 7B nor the ARC is forgiving. They are both brutal in their honesty. Bad upstream will bring bad sound to our ears. One interesting note is that a CD that sounded bad on the ARC may sound tolerable on the 7B because of higher resolution. This is counter-intuitive until we heard it. For example, a CD sounded lean in the highs, lacking mids and so so lows through the ARC. Played through the 7B, suddenly the lean high opens up to reveal two or more higher freq instrumental details. The mids reveal several more instruments and the lows become better integrated with the rest of the music. The 7B is better able to reveal more details so it can change our impression of what we thought was a bad recording.

In matching, we thought it all depended on what speakers they were driving. We thought the 7B is a better match for the 3.7 due to 7B's ability to control the speakers. The VTs would be perfect for speakers with high sensitivity (90+?) and lower power demand (100W+?).

In terms of ease of use, the 7B fires up and if we really must be picky, wait 10 minutes and off it rolls. Our older VT's generally require 40 minutes of warm-up before sounding their best. We did not ask how long it would take the newer VT200M to warm up.

My brother was plowing in $1600 a pop and $1800 if we count the $200 for re-bias and adjustments each time tubes were changed. He did not want to do the adjustment himself. Tube cost got expensive given how much we play our gear.

My brother was the one who dragged us around shopping, made us listen for hours, asked for our input and made us lugged all sorts of pre-amp, amp, cables and speakers around before finally settling on the 7B to replace his 9B which nearly replaced his old VT200 :D.

We thought a better comparison to the 7B may be the ARC Ref 300 or Ref 600. If you have not heard them, it is definitely worth a session. There are still differences but the 600 is one excellent amplifier. The 300 comes close to the 7B but hard to tell if it could surpass the 7B.

Hope this helps.

ps.
if possible, you may want to hear both amps driving your speakers.




95Dyna

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Re: Should I buy ARC VTM 200 or 7BSST2?
« Reply #8 on: 23 Feb 2010, 08:59 pm »
Thanks cabrystonowner10, that was a very interesting comparison.  I have 7B SST 2's also driving a more difficult than average pair of speaks and have never heard or seen a really comprehensive comparison of the 7's to a tube amp such as the ARC.  It's great to have the opportunity to hear how they stack up from someone who actually knows.  Very infomative.  If I'm not mistaken aren't the REF 600's five time the price of the 7B's?

CABrystonOwner10

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Re: Should I buy ARC VTM 200 or 7BSST2?
« Reply #9 on: 23 Feb 2010, 09:25 pm »
95Dyna,

Glad to share useful info.

The Ref 600 MKIII was around $35K, I think. It was an exquisite performer but way too pricey even for ARC lovers like my family. Thank goodness for Bryston!

Waker

Re: Should I buy ARC VTM 200 or 7BSST2?
« Reply #10 on: 23 Feb 2010, 10:11 pm »
Thankyou, CA Bryston Owner---what a nice report--just what I was looking for, especially with the 7's placed in an all-ARC system, including an LS preamp.
Quote
In revealing details, the VT seems to reveal about 20% less than what we heard through the 7B. The 7B clearly revealed instruments and lines that were somewhat hidden or hard to hear through the VT. We were surprised by the amount of difference in details. This is not caused by tipped-up frequency either, it is true musical notes played by instruments that were hidden before. The 7B separated these lines for us.
I am most interested in the resolving power of the 7BSST-2 that you describe here.  To me, clarity equals sweetness more than does a slightly-rounded tube signature.  The reputation of tube amps as better able to involve the listener with inner details is eclipsed by your qualitative analysis, obviously constructed over many hours of comparisons.  I am now much more confident that, if I go with the 7s, I will not be missing out on something that only tubes can deliver. And the 7Bs will certainly drive the Maggie 3.6R to no end, whereas the ARs are, as you say, at the low end of what is recommended.  And with the cost of retubing--the Brystons are much more appealing.  I will listen to the VTMs later this week, but I may just order the Brystons.   :D   

Waker

Re: Should I buy ARC VTM 200 or 7BSST2?
« Reply #11 on: 23 Feb 2010, 10:28 pm »
Quote
Any chance of posting a photo of the Audio Research Vacuum Tube Monoblocks

  Laundrew, for pics, please go to www.arcdb, the unofficial tribute site to ARC's product line history.  Lots of interesting biographies there. 

Again, CA Bryston Owner, thanks for taking so much time in helping me make a decision without my having heard both amps.  My dealer does not have a pair of 7Bs for demo, so your report is all the more invaluable and interesting.   :thumb:

topround

Re: Should I buy ARC VTM 200 or 7BSST2?
« Reply #12 on: 23 Feb 2010, 10:35 pm »
You will miss what tubes do.
Tubes offer a level of texture and dimensionality that I never heard a SS amp deliver. Is that better? For me yes. For some no.

Ever notice that most of the higher end systems on this forum are tube based.
Most of the more experienced guys that have been at this for a while use tubes.
This is for a reason, one day you will understand, it takes experience and not just a one  time sit down with tubes, I have been thru a few tube amps before I found the one that I liked.

I had some very expensive SS amps in my system, and while yes, they are clean, quiet, and deliver tremendous bass, they just lack the dimensionality, the 3dness that makes the experience so satifying.
Have you ever heard of a tube guy that discovered SS? Not likely

You have to understand what it is that tubes do. Everything is a compromise,, at first blush the SS may impress but over time you may become fatigued or bored, tubes involve you musically, like a transporter to the event.

Are tubes the best..no, neither is SS, everything is a compromise, you have to make the compromises you decide to live with. Most of you may not have alot of experience with tubes, so don't be too judgemental. There are a lot of experienced guys out there that will say otherwise irregardless of price.

Not trying to inflame anything here, but since there are no tube guys here, I thought I would just add a little from the other side of things.

Mike

Levi

Re: Should I buy ARC VTM 200 or 7BSST2?
« Reply #13 on: 23 Feb 2010, 10:59 pm »

The 7B has none of the hard, ear-killing solid state noise. In many ways, it sounds like an excellent tube amplifier. As solid state strives to sound like the best of tubes and tubes strive to sound like the best of solid state, I would say the 7B (28B?) comes darn close to the ideal range.




It is funny you mentioned about the 7B sounding close to tubes.  I have people over A/B between my 7B and my vintage McIntosh MC60 tube mono amps and after switching from tubes to ss, we could not hear the difference.  We did the swap from SS to Tubes and viceversa several more times during the day.   We listened for; top end, bass resolution, dynamics, midrange, three dimensionality, tone, ambience, etc...both similar.  In the end, we concluded that the McIntosh MC60 tubes sounded like SS.  :thumb:

McIntosh Clinic Performance certified DOB 9-9-69  8)

toobluvr

Re: Should I buy ARC VTM 200 or 7BSST2?
« Reply #14 on: 23 Feb 2010, 11:06 pm »
Yeah waker, You could just ask toobluvr for his unbiased opinion and whilst doing so pay no attention to his handle.  And, toobluvr, please consider that walker is comparing a specific SS amp to a specific tube amp hoping to find somebody who has heard both.  There is a higher probability of finding such a user on a Bryston or ARC users group forum.  If I hear that word fanboy one more time on here......please give it a rest as it is an inflammatory word that goes against the spirit of our forum.

I call em as I see em, Dyna.......call em as I see em.  Sorry that my opinion disturbs you so.

Of course I am biased.  Everyone is.   Yeah, in general I prefer tubes.  But that is based on experience.....lot of experience.  My allegiance to tubes is not blind, as you seem to suggest.  It is born from years of listening to lots of different stuff.....all technologies.  I keep an open mind to everything. 

Matter of fact my first high-end system back in 1995 was Bryston:  3BST amp and BP20 preamp.  Then I discovered the wonder of tubes.  They opened up a world of sound that I never knew existed.  The Bryston stuff did not even last 6 months in my system.  And you know what?  I did not even have to go very high up the tube chain to find what I thought was sonically superior.    It was replaced by a very modest tube amp.  But that's me.  Others may hear differently or have speakers that require real SS grunt.

Another story for ya....
Guy came to my place to buy my Bryston gear for his Maggies.   He was a bit of a newbie and unfamiliar with tubes.  He listened to my very modest tubed system for awhile and was completely enchanted.  That was all it took.  He didn't buy the Bryston...sold his Maggies.....and built a tube based system.
 
Look, I have no beef with Bryston.  I have no beef with SS in general.  I understand there are certain speakers that require SS.  If you like it, fine.   I just bought a SS amp two weeks ago.  I ask you, would a closed-minded person do that? 

In my orig post I did not even say what I thought would be better for the OP.  I simply said that I thought most responses in this venue would be slanted in one direction.  And that statement is based on the pom-pom waving  I observe in here.  You guys are allowed to have your club, but let's be honest about things.

I'm sure Bryston is a very fine product.  But try to keep an open mind and listen to other stuff.  I won't be surprised if in a few years I see you singing the praises of tubes.  Seen it many times in the past.  It usually happens when folks grow and get a bit of experience.

Just an observation for ya:  in my years in this game I have seen many many die-hard SS guys swinging over to the tube camp with comments like "I finally get it.....I didn't realize what I was missing all these years".  Seen it dozens of times on this board alone.  I don't know that I've ever seen it happen the other way 'round.

That should tell you something.  With experience comes wisdom.  Just something to keep in mind the next time you feel the urge to be dismissive of someone who happens to prefer tubes.  Maybe they have that preference for very good reason.

« Last Edit: 24 Feb 2010, 12:24 am by toobluvr »

CABrystonOwner10

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Re: Should I buy ARC VTM 200 or 7BSST2?
« Reply #15 on: 23 Feb 2010, 11:10 pm »
  Laundrew, for pics, please go to www.arcdb, the unofficial tribute site to ARC's product line history.  Lots of interesting biographies there. 

Again, CA Bryston Owner, thanks for taking so much time in helping me make a decision without my having heard both amps.  My dealer does not have a pair of 7Bs for demo, so your report is all the more invaluable and interesting.   :thumb:

Hi Walker,

Glad to be of some help. Please do know that my info is of course, strictly limited to the ARC VT200, VT200 MKII and VT200M and all are no longer in production.

In the end, you do have to trust your ears, take my notes with a giant grain of salt and be as critical as you can.


werd

Re: Should I buy ARC VTM 200 or 7BSST2?
« Reply #16 on: 23 Feb 2010, 11:10 pm »
You will miss what tubes do.
Tubes offer a level of texture and dimensionality that I never heard a SS amp deliver. Is that better? For me yes. For some no.

Ever notice that most of the higher end systems on this forum are tube based.
Most of the more experienced guys that have been at this for a while use tubes.
This is for a reason, one day you will understand, it takes experience and not just a one  time sit down with tubes, I have been thru a few tube amps before I found the one that I liked.

I had some very expensive SS amps in my system, and while yes, they are clean, quiet, and deliver tremendous bass, they just lack the dimensionality, the 3dness that makes the experience so satifying.
Have you ever heard of a tube guy that discovered SS? Not likely

You have to understand what it is that tubes do. Everything is a compromise,, at first blush the SS may impress but over time you may become fatigued or bored, tubes involve you musically, like a transporter to the event.

Are tubes the best..no, neither is SS, everything is a compromise, you have to make the compromises you decide to live with. Most of you may not have alot of experience with tubes, so don't be too judgemental. There are a lot of experienced guys out there that will say otherwise irregardless of price.

Not trying to inflame anything here, but since there are no tube guys here, I thought I would just add a little from the other side of things.

Mike

Come on topround, that whole tube thing is so 20th century. there was a time when that was correct. but SS has come along way in terms of dimensionality. I find the SS gear less fatiguing than most of tubes i have heard now anyways. If you want tubes just find a good tube pre and there you go, don't need to outfit your whole system with tubes.

topround

Re: Should I buy ARC VTM 200 or 7BSST2?
« Reply #17 on: 23 Feb 2010, 11:18 pm »
Shouldn't tube preamps be 20th century then?
Do you need a good tube pre? maybe a SS will suffice?

James Tanner

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Re: Should I buy ARC VTM 200 or 7BSST2?
« Reply #18 on: 23 Feb 2010, 11:28 pm »
Hi Folks,

Please don’t let this thread deteriorate into “mine is bigger than yours”.  We have been down this road before and it leads nowhere! :scratch:

James

CABrystonOwner10

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Re: Should I buy ARC VTM 200 or 7BSST2?
« Reply #19 on: 23 Feb 2010, 11:40 pm »
TubeLover, Mike and all tube lovers reading here,

My notes are strictly limited to Audio Research and then only limited to ARC's venerable VT200, VT200 MKII and VT200M and they all out of production. My notes were impartial, they revealed what we heard during our auditioning processes. Walker will soon listen and decide for himself.

My family lived with the VT200 for years, and before that was the VT100 and before that, the wonderful McIntoshes. We are a two generation McIntosh and ARC owners :D. Combined, my parents and siblings currently own a LS26, a Ref 3, a CD2, a CD 7 Ref. We are looking into the PH7 now as we heard a friend's PH7 and it is very good. I still have very fond memories of McIntosh gear in our family music room.

Technology rolls on and things do improve. That is why ARC retired the Ref 600 and replaced it with Ref 610 so quickly. ARC continues to improve its product with swift introduction of Mark-I and Mark-II type enhancement offering. This accelerated, it seems, around the early 2000's. Changes were made to solid state parts and not just tube types. Even ARC acknowledges the importance of tube life concerns and the importance of SS components. 

Unfortunately, ARC, for all its wonderful work and significant improvements, is slowly pricing itself out of our range. There comes a point when retirement and kids' college become more important than having a concert hall at home. We also have to consider the possibility of diminishing return. Is spending $40,000 on the new ARC 610T worth the extra bit that I can hear versus around $8000 for the 7bSST2? A difference of a whopping $32000? Each of us has to make that rather personal and private call. If you can afford it, I would say go for it. Some of us cannot justify that hefty investment.

Thankfully, the 7B is not a huge compromise. We know all about the seductiveness of tube sound. When I first heard my brother's brand new VT200 11 years ago, I couldn't wait to hang out over there just to listen. Now, I hang out at my sister's to listen to her 7B's :). My 9B's are nearly as good but not quite.

We are long-time users of vacuum tube gear because such gear met our needs once. We are not tied to one technology over another. Whichever serves our needs the best will get a good look. This time around, we tube lovers discovered Bryston by accident and thought the 7B a wonderful product. Ten years from now, who knows?

Happy LIstening!