[Jon L]

Now if you want to take a stab at kit building, you can get a Transcendentsound Grounded Grid for $500. I would then if you are building it, use a better Selector switch and a better volume pot. Probably set you back about $600 total for the unit and parts upgrade.

That's all I can suggest for the moment.

Ray Bronk

Good suggestion.  Grounded Grid also tends to come up on Agon fairly often used. 
I would suggest skipping on upgrading the selector switch and just directly wire one input only, skipping the selector.  Use that money to get some better coupling capacitors, then do the Shunt mode mod for the volume control.  I tried running the GG in this configuration in front of SS amps, and it's a good way to go IMO.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=72652.msg709001#msg709001

[SteveFord]

I've been very happy with my Sonic Frontiers SFL-2.  The company is no more but Parts Connexion up in Canada can keep it going if problems ever arise.

[JakeJ]

I've been very happy with my Sonic Frontiers SFL-2.  The company is no more but Parts Connexion up in Canada can keep it going if problems ever arise.

Steve makes a good point.  Pay attention to whether the mfr is still in business or not and whether there is a path for tech support and repairs if needed.  I'm still stinging from just that situation. 

BR,
Jake

[Vulcan00]

Is there a point where only minimal improvements in Sound quailty will be gained when adding a reference quality tube pre-amp to a  mid level system?

I have been looking at reference quality used pre-amps.
Harrison

[doug s.]

Is there a point where only minimal improvements in Sound quailty will be gained when adding a reference quality tube pre-amp to a  mid level system?

I have been looking at reference quality used pre-amps.
Harrison

imo, a definite yes!  two reasons - first, you may be surprised to find a lot more than minimal improvements.  second, it will be the backbone of all future improvements to your system.

doug s.

[Niteshade]

I have tried several of these experiments and have been awe struck every time: Try hooking up a good preamp to a basic stereo receiver that has pre-out and amp-in jacks. Remove the jumpers and tie a good preamp into the amp inputs. WOW! You will be impressed! Yes, the preamp can make or break a system.

[doorman]

Is there a point where only minimal improvements in Sound quailty will be gained when adding a reference quality tube pre-amp to a  mid level system?

I have been looking at reference quality used pre-amps




Harrison

Which "reference quality" tubed pre's?
Best, Don

[Vulcan00]

doorman:

Audio Reference  3
Vtl 7.5 series II
Atma Sphere

an few others

[low.pfile]

Is there a point where only minimal improvements in Sound quailty will be gained when adding a reference quality tube pre-amp to a  mid level system?

I have been looking at reference quality used pre-amps.
Harrison

OK we see your reference Tube pre amps (Whoa! the Vtl 7.5 series II Tube Preampifier is $18k new). Now what do you consider a "mid level" system? I am guessing by cost?

cheers, ed

[Vulcan00]

OK we see your reference Tube pre amps (Whoa! the Vtl 7.5 series II Tube Preampifier is $18k new). Now what do you consider a "mid level" system? I am guessing by cost?

cheers, ed

Ok   i was affraid I might come off like your suggesting.   
It is about the $. I had never realized that there is a market for used audio equipment until now. I have watched the used market. Like cars certain brands bring higher and quicker resales. I dont intend to spend $18K for a new pre but I am considering ~$5k used IF it will make a difference and I dont have to then upgrade my  speakers +other parts to get the full benifit.That was the bases for my question
Harrison

[JakeJ]

Harrison,

This is a slippery slope you are about to step upon.  As Niteshade and doug s. have stated you will hear a difference and likely it will be a big and positive one.  Then you start to question the other components in your system.  As you upgrade them, including speakers, you realize the level of resolution becomes exponentially higher.  Next comes cabling and all the inherent issues with them.  I too am guilty of this and have, over the past year or so, upgraded my system to a level I never imagined I could achieve thanks to the used market.

To that end I recently got the opportunity to try Audio Magic's Liquid Illusion cabling system and it was a "Holy Mother of God" experience.  Detail and resolution, PRAT and bass slam that I didn't know my stereo was capable of.  Dammit!  $6500 worth of wire that isn't wire.  It's actually a conductive liquid polymer and the only metal involved is the connectors on the ends.

So, you see, this can be the beginnings of an entire new system and that it may not be a bad thing.  Or it could.  At least thanks to AC you were warned! 

Have fun and keep us posted as to your audio journey.

Jake

[low.pfile]

Ok   i was affraid I might come off like your suggesting.   
It is about the $. I had never realized that there is a market for used audio equipment until now. I have watched the used market. Like cars certain brands bring higher and quicker resales. I dont intend to spend $18K for a new pre but I am considering ~$5k used IF it will make a difference and I dont have to then upgrade my  speakers +other parts to get the full benifit.That was the bases for my question
Harrison

No, I wasn't actully suggesting or implying anything honestly. I asked so your target price range was clear. But I was really asking what you considered a mid level system. but I realized you must categorize your own system as mid level. I wasn't sure which perspective you were coming from, since those who drastically upgrade stock units and full DIYers who create outstanding result, have a bit of challenge putting a $ value on components. That's all.

cheers, ed

[satfrat]

Harrison,

This is a slippery slope you are about to step upon.  As Niteshade and doug s. have stated you will hear a difference and likely it will be a big and positive one.  Then you start to question the other components in your system.  As you upgrade them, including speakers, you realize the level of resolution becomes exponentially higher.  Next comes cabling and all the inherent issues with them.  I too am guilty of this and have, over the past year or so, upgraded my system to a level I never imagined I could achieve thanks to the used market.

To that end I recently got the opportunity to try Audio Magic's Liquid Illusion cabling system and it was a "Holy Mother of God" experience.  Detail and resolution, PRAT and bass slam that I didn't know my stereo was capable of.  Dammit!  $6500 worth of wire that isn't wire.  It's actually a conductive liquid polymer and the only metal involved is the connectors on the ends.

So, you see, this can be the beginnings of an entire new system and that it may not be a bad thing.  Or it could.  At least thanks to AC you were warned! 

Have fun and keep us posted as to your audio journey.

Jake

I was wondering when someone would bring up the new nonwire cabling from Audio Magic.    I like their toys very very much myself. 
 
Cheers,
Robin

[JakeJ]

Agreed, Robin.  As part of my whole system upgrade I purchased an AM Stealth XXX power conditioner and several power cords.  It made a huge difference.  At the time I was able to directly compare it to a Running Springs Jaco and a Pi Audio Group Majic Buss.  The Stealth won but honestly it was by a slim margin compared to the Jaco.  The Majic Buss was still in the running and at its price point is a major over-achiever.  I should have tried the MB in front of the Stealth just for fun but it didn't occur to my small Neanderthal brain at the time.  I really should consider an Uber Buss for my recently assembled "Library" system.  Hmmm... 

[low.pfile]

I really like this thread!
It reminds me of the threads when I first joined where everyone helped out by sharing their experiences and knowledge...the threads that helped my put together my system. BTW, Harrison, though it is my first amp/pre-amp system I have a Modwright 9.0 tube pre with my battery amp. Not the formula you are seeking but I do have it integrated into my AV system as well. Have fun.
ed

[Ericus Rex]

Another cool thing about tube pres is that tube rolling in them can make a huge difference.  And you don't have to spend a fortune on premiums to hear it.  When I got my speakers last year I spent alot of time tweaking them and the biggest sonic difference occured when I swapped the EHs in my pre with NOS Americans...at $12.50 each!

[Prosoundman1000]

   I have to agree with Jake's points here.  Upgrading to a reference quality pre-amp will re-examine the performance of every component interconnected with it. The great new pre-amp may very well become your new reference to which all your other components, including loudspeakers are judged.  As Jake mentioned. " this can be a very slippery slope"
   I am not advocating you pass on a pre-amplifier upgrade as I feel any and all improvements in the audio chain are worth-while.  Some upgrades will have a much larger and thus more meaningful impact.  Sooner or later it comes down to money and the blast per dollar ratio. While I have never experienced a significant improvement changing from $2000.00 loudspeaker cables to $10,000.00 cables; I have heard a quantum leap in performance going from a $2000.00 pre-amp to a $10,000.00 pre. Of course the other side of the coin is I have improved the performance of my amplifiers tremendously by upgrading the driver tube and coupling capacitor; a $400.00 upgrade.
     Experimentation is key here.  Purchase used and keep the pre-amp if you like it's sonics.  If you find down the road you don't or hear one you prefer then continue on your audio quest.
     That's why they call this a hobby.  It never ends.

[fredgarvin]

I have tried several of these experiments and have been awe struck every time: Try hooking up a good preamp to a basic stereo receiver that has pre-out and amp-in jacks. Remove the jumpers and tie a good preamp into the amp inputs. WOW! You will be impressed! Yes, the preamp can make or break a system.

Agreed. I've always felt the pre section upgrade to be the most evident difference.(Other than speakers). I had a 70's era Kenwood integrated that I used for awhile with a Miniwatt pre, man what an improvement that was. 

[TerryO]

FWIW, I had Doorman's Grounded Grid preamp hooked up to my Gain Clone amp a couple of years ago at an audio meet and was certainly impressed by the resulting sound. My GC is a pretty fast amp and it wasn't slowed down by the GG at all. I've had other preamps, both SS and tube along with several passive line stages hooked up and much prefer the GG over all of them.

I did attend a demo of Steve McCormack's latest line stage (VRE-1)a couple of months ago at our audio club and was "very" impressed by what it did for the sound of the club's system. They were hooked up to Genesis Audio Technologies' new SS amps and it sounded superb to me. BTW: Many of the members thought it was the best sound we've ever had out of our system to date.

These are two widely differing price points, but from my experience they're both worthy of being on your short list of options.

Best Regards,
TerryO

[Vulcan00]

Thanks everyone,

I really like the information Ive seen on the VRE-1 TerryO.But Thats a SS pre. Eventhough its SS I am still very interested.

I am going to be honest here. I have put I know at least 1-2 hours a day on this subject. I understand whole lot more, I am aware of most all brands and AC brands. I feel just like I have about gone full circle around. I have been close to pulling the trigger on a few. It seems that the closer I get to a match then something happens to turn me away.

This thread ,I have read over and over an its the one thing keeping me grounded so if you have something to say please do.
Harrison