[Wayner]

macrojack is a Toyota man and that makes the rest of you,,,,,,,, right? Pretty lame.

[BobRex]

This is the same crap my uncle (G.M. employee) tries to spew when we discuss things.  What possible reason could there be for the media to bash a U.S. based automaker?

It is a well known fact that Americans are overweight and uneducated when compared to other developed nations.  This would imply that they'd make inferior employees.  I'm not saying it is true 100% of the time, but it is worth mentioning.  Recalls are based on design quirks that go unnoticed until it's too late...this can be for a number of reasons....generally not based on any of this 

Pehaps before you make any claims about education levels you should first investigate the education systems of other countries.  Yes, it is true that test grades are better in many foreign countries, but that's because they restrict who is taking the test.  Unlike the US, every other developed country (Europe and Japan at least, I'm not sure about Canada) limits, through aptitude tests, who attends the equivalent to our high schools.  So a portion of the student population is shunted off to "trade or career" schools and aren't given the same tests as the high schoolers.  The US mandates that all students shall have the opportunity to attend high school and receive the same education that the high achievers get.  So our percentage of population attending high school is much higher.  Now add that aptitude tests are given to ALL high school students, regardless of educational aptitude - PA school districts are incensed that they have to include the special education students in their statistics, and yes, that population is large enough to seriously skew the results.

Statistically, the US continues to lead the world in productivity.  The majority of problems like Toyota's are a function of either poor design, cost contraints, or poor management decisions, not poor labor issues.

[Wayner]

By the way, anyone slightly knowledgeable about the manufacturing process knows that the incoming Quality Control inspections at any large company have guys that just love to find things out of "specification". So it doesn't matter who or where the parts were made, they were made to print or they wouldn't have gotten to the assembly line. The design by Toyota engineers was bad. And if they are willing to make short-cuts on a crucial control element, how about the rest of the works?

W

[jackman]

I'm not pointing blame at anyone - but, it happens to be a US manufacturer that makes it and versions of it are even used on Ford trucks in China that may be affected.  So, Toyota may only be at 'fault' for not finding the rectifying the issue a little sooner. 

Nice try but you are wrong.  I love it when people say, "I'm not pointing blame" and they go on to point blame.  The part was DESIGNED by TOYOTA and the manufacturer, CTS, manufactured the part TO TOYOTA's SPECIFICATIONS.  Toyota approved the assembly and installed in millions of cars.  The Ford part in China was also made by CTS and was thought to be similar in design to Toyota, but was not the Toyota design. The company decided to take the trucks off the market preemptively, not because they had any problems in China. 

CTS makes parts for several car companies and no other company has experienced this problem with the gas pedals sticking.  Toyota makes good cars and has a very good reputation for quality.  They just screwed this one up and now are taking their medicine for their quality defect. 

Toyota screwed up.  They are not the first or last car company to do so, but they deserve to be called out for this product defect.  Some people will be unfair and make more of this than it warrants, and some will try to say it's much ado about nothing or try to point fingers at American workers or a US parts supplier. We seem to have at least one of each type in this thread. 

[ctviggen]

Also, it's a myth that Americans are more "overweight" than the inhabitants of other countries.  Even if Americans are more "overweight", what does this have to do with quality control in a manufacturing facility?

[jackman]

Also, it's a myth that Americans are more "overweight" than the inhabitants of other countries.  Even if Americans are more "overweight", what does this have to do with quality control in a manufacturing facility?

I don't know but I'm not down with the chubby ladies.  Girls, please lay off the fries!  Muffin-tops are not sexy, no matter what your drunken boyfriend says. 

[cujobob]

Ford's had plenty of recalls...calm down there, killer.

For what it's worth, we're discussing Japan and the U.S....Japan's education system makes the U.S. look quite awful.  They are a tiny country (about the size of New England IIRC) and have the world's second (or third, depending) largest economy.  The U.S. is a new country and had plenty of land and natural resources, we are still a very young country.  Things change over time.

This doesn't matter all that much since Japanese automakers have plenty of engineers from other countries...as do the Big Three.

[macrojack]

For the record, I have migrated to Toyota after owning Triumph, Alfa-Romeo, Rambler, DeSoto, Ford, Fiat, BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Nissan, VW, Jeep and Volvo. The experience of owning a boring car that went on forever with only routine maintenance was too much to ignore so I replaced other cars with Toyotas, gradually reaching a place where all my cars are Toys except one Mercedes diesel.

American car makers were always protected against intrusion until Honda, Toyota and Subaru overcame the hurdles placed in their way by producing cars so clearly superior they were able to obviate the jingoistic tendencies of our buying public. The only reason American manufacturers are beginning to compete is that their smug assumption that they would always reign supreme was jarred by the realization that they were slipping into oblivion.

The big three operated for a long time with the belief that advertising was the key and the product was secondary. They haven't changed all that much.

[sts9fan]

I am loving this everytime someone brings up LEAN here. 
"Look what happened to Toyota guys!"

[TheChairGuy]

Nice try but you are wrong.  I love it when people say, "I'm not pointing blame" and they go on to point blame.  The part was DESIGNED by TOYOTA and the manufacturer, CTS, manufactured the part TO TOYOTA's SPECIFICATIONS.  Toyota approved the assembly and installed in millions of cars.  The Ford part in China was also made by CTS and was thought to be similar in design to Toyota, but was not the Toyota design. The company decided to take the trucks off the market preemptively, not because they had any problems in China. 

For your edification, Jack....I have not and have no plans of owning a Toyota product.  I've yet to drive one that stirs me.

So, no accusatory fingers were intended in my post.  It's merely a part gone awry and it could have been designed by any make.  That it's Toyota, long known as the benchmark for quality by even other automakers, makes it a BIG deal.

I'm a ~ 20 year subscriber to Consumer Reports and except for an occasional car from GM the past few years, the US makes are still behind the Japanese and even Hyundai in overall quality. 

However, the great Alan Mulally, new-ish CEO at Ford, seems to have pulled off the impossible recently.  The newest Ford designs are a hit with customers in feature content and looks, and the reliability across-the-board is holding up well.  Finally, after some 40 years, we actually seem to have a world class maker of vehicles based in the US. He also turned a worldwide profit of $2.4Billion in any abysmal 2009.

Despite assertions in this topic by a few.....past efforts by Ford prior to Mulally's tenure wer mostly 'excuse' vehicles.

Ford has never been on my shopping list, but I'm studying the Ford lineup and may make a visit this Spring to see if something strikes our fancy.

John

[ctviggen]

I'm a ~ 20 year subscriber to Consumer Reports and except for an occasional car from GM the past few years, the US makes are still behind the Japanese and even Hyundai in overall quality. 

You mean that according to the people who take the time to fill out the report for Consumer Reports, the U.S. makers are still behind the Japanese and Hyundai.  That's a pretty select group (for instance, I've never been offered to respond to Consumer Reports regarding any of the cars I've owned).  I don't put too much stock into these types of reports, as they tend to be biased.

JD Powers?  Maybe; at least it's an attempt at a sampling of all people, not just those who read Consumer Reports.

[cujobob]

Quality in auto is one of those things best measured years later.  This is one of the reasons why I won't purchase a product from the Big Three for several years.  If they offer a product proven reliable for a decade straight, I'd purchase from them.  I might be over-doing it, but cars are not inexpensive items one can take a chance on.  Your life depends on them not only safety-wise, but for transportation to work on a regular basis.  Going to an auto repair shop is one form of hell I'll skip.

Toyota and Honda have proven reliable for several decades.  I don't get the clamoring for Big Three products in the '90s....that's like someone who still rants and raves about a product from RCA (or for many years, SONY)...relying on their name to sell.

[Wayner]

Well, go look at Ford's latest sales report. They beat Toyota. There are still some people that can make correct buying decisions based on performance, comfort and reliability. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/05/AR2010010503859.html

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100202-712001.html?mod=WSJ_latestheadlines

Wayner

[jackman]

So, no accusatory fingers were intended in my post.  It's merely a part gone awry and it could have been designed by any make.  That it's Toyota, long known as the benchmark for quality by even other automakers, makes it a BIG deal.
I'm a ~ 20 year subscriber to Consumer Reports and except for an occasional car from GM the past few years, the US makes are still behind the Japanese and even Hyundai in overall quality. 

Hi John,

I agree, it is a BIG deal that Toyota designed this defective part.  I was just trying to provide clarification to your post because it appeared you were uncertain as to who designed the part and the context behind the Ford action in China.

I get tired of hearing the typical US bashers.  If Ford or GM had a similar recall, we would be hearing the same Toyota apologists who are bent out of shape over the way Toyota is being treated. 

Regarding Consumer reports, my opinion is less than positive and I would never rely on their "analysis" for a car purchase.  To be fair, I would never rely on them for an audio purchase either.  Do you get your tips on which audio gear to buy from Consumer Reports? 

[avahifi]

Does anyone around here actually know what the real mechanical problem with Toyotas were and what the actual fix is?

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[Scottdazzle]

The pedals at issue were manufactured by both U.S. and Japanese companies.  Your point is?

I'm no mechanic and don't pretend to know much about cars.  My point is simply a question.  Is Toyota using better/different assemblies on their US made and Japan made cars?  There was an interview on the news yesterday (NPR? I can't remember) that implied that the US accelerator assemblies used plastic for some of the assembly whereas the Japanese used metal.

[jackman]

Does anyone around here actually know what the real mechanical problem with Toyotas were and what the actual fix is?

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

Hi Frank,

Google is your friend:

http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/01/autos/toyota_gas_pedal_fix/?eref=edition_world&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fedition_world+(RSS%3A+World)

[cujobob]

Hi John,

I agree, it is a BIG deal that Toyota designed this defective part.  I was just trying to provide clarification to your post because it appeared you were uncertain as to who designed the part and the context behind the Ford action in China.

I get tired of hearing the typical US bashers.  If Ford or GM had a similar recall, we would be hearing the same Toyota apologists who are bent out of shape over the way Toyota is being treated. 

Regarding Consumer reports, my opinion is less than positive and I would never rely on their "analysis" for a car purchase.  To be fair, I would never rely on them for an audio purchase either.  Do you get your tips on which audio gear to buy from Consumer Reports?

Ford and GM are not on equal footing with Toyota in terms of reliability.  You assume this is the case.  If Toyota were to make a few more mistakes, absolutely it would affect my opinion of them...but one?  I don't think that's fair.

Here's one for Ford:  http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2001/05/22/021415.html

I've never recommended someone not buy a Ford because of the tire issue...it's because the company has not been as reliable as alternatives.  Simple as that.

[Wayner]

It ain't simple as that. It's all just your opinion. I've had 4 Ranger trucks with not one problem. I bought 2 new Fords this year, a F150 and Fusion. The F150 won truck of the year, and the Fusion is eveywhere on the road. People like them. This is actually my second Fusion, great car and highly recommended.

Wayner

[cujobob]

Aw c'mon...we're on an audio site and you're pulling the 'of the year' stuff?  You'd think we'd know better...

Here's a quote from a manufacturer who posts on here that sums it up best:

"I worked at Ford for more than 20 years. I learned from that who made the best cars. When I left (actually before I left) I bought two Honda Accords; the four door "family car" and the two door. Both V-6, but today I wouldn't do that for fuel economy reasons."

Not an endorsement for Toyota, but you get the idea.