The easy way to make a $3000 CD player

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Bemopti123

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #80 on: 18 Jan 2010, 10:35 pm »
Bear, you can't do that, I still need to break it in, secret, I paid well below the MSRP, but if I tell you how much, I have got to k-ll ya. 

What?  My Lex is a rebadged Oppo?

What?

That can't be.

Anyway, come check the Matrix out and you can check my Red Rose amps and speakers by Mark Levinson, which I bought close out at the Red Rose store down in Madison Avenue, as the store was closing.

They have been wonderful, very reliable and have given me satisfaction no end. 

What, you got no ride back?  I will take you on my NOS Metro Storm, the best GMC car I have ever had the pleasure of driving.   :thumb: :thumb:

decal

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #81 on: 19 Jan 2010, 01:04 am »
Has anyone noticed that Audiogon is not letting anyone post any threads about this? Wonder why?

trebejo

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #82 on: 19 Jan 2010, 01:20 am »
Has anyone noticed that Audiogon is not letting anyone post any threads about this? Wonder why?

Audiogon moderators censor posts in a pretty nasty way. I think they do not want people to read things that will discourage purchases.

srb

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #83 on: 19 Jan 2010, 01:27 am »
Has anyone noticed that Audiogon is not letting anyone post any threads about this? Wonder why?

Are you referring to creating new threads, as I was able to post to an existing thread titled "Lexicon BD-30 universal player"?
 
Steve

TheChairGuy

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #84 on: 19 Jan 2010, 01:38 am »
Given this is Frank's AVA circle...I'll try to be brief.

I read this and reacted in horror as many did....that the same product is papered over and sold for 6x the price.

Then, I realized, we make carts for others under private label....and they sell EXACTLY the same thing as you can buy at Costco for 3x as much.  We sell to both at the same price - it's merely a function of their efficiency at moving freight and margin needs.  We don't and cannot control it and all we care about is to make our proper margin. 

What goes on past that is not our concern.  I suspect, much as OPPO thinks of the situation.  Lexicon, and perhaps others buying from OPPO, give OPPO additional economies of scale to buy parts from suppliers at better costs, etc.

Unlike van Alstine and others that sell consumer direct, isn't Lexicon  a 'dealer' line?  Well, that nearly doubles the price there over OPPO's....and their casework is nicer/pricier. Save Amazon as a retail outlet who probably works on very small margin to be the only other retail source for product from OPPO aside from OPPO.

While this doesn't account for a 6x rise, it accounts for half of it at least.

btw, I'm not necessarily defending Lexicon as it seems a bit shady at a 6x lift, but I see it from a different perspective than many here and I hope it adds another dimension to the debate.

John

TheChairGuy

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #85 on: 19 Jan 2010, 01:45 am »
Here's another to get chewed up about:

Clearaudio Talismann: $1200 http://www.needledoctor.com/Clearaudio-Talismann-Phono-Cartridge

and

Denon DL103R: $379 http://www.needledoctor.com/Denon-DL-103R-Cartridge

Same retailer and the DL103R and Clearaudio Talismann are the same cartridge (made by Denon).  The Clearaudio has a fancier enclosure (sound familiar  :scratch:) and the stylus is supposedly a slightly better elliptical one. 

Over 3x the price, both dealer sold...and the very same dealer, as well, sells them.  Further, if you look hard you can find the DL103R at discounters for $100 less...whereas the Clearaudio, with it's more controlled distribution, sells for $1200 everywhere.

Food for additional thought guys :wink: There's nothing illegal about it - it's just how business works.

John

Bemopti123

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #86 on: 19 Jan 2010, 01:46 am »
Audiogon moderators censor posts in a pretty nasty way. I think they do not want people to read things that will discourage purchases.

Gon Bots are afraid that this sort of thread will make their sales of LXXCON second hand merchandise disappear. 

I remember that Lex did sell a rebadged NAD or some similar manufacturer amp about 5 years ago.  I cannot exactly recall the original company. 

It is embarrassing how a company that used to fly so high as Lexicon with their own R and D fall so low, perhaps it is a function of Harman taking over.

We live in a world where razor thin profits rule any sort of business venture and I am not surprised that companies will attempt to pad their profit margins such as what Lex did here.

Just don't buy into this royal scam, that is all we can say.  You have been warned. 

Any takers to watch the Matrix BD edition in my discounted Lexicon BD playa? :thumb:

BTW:  I don't even have a regular BR disc player yet.  Don't think of the format has having arrived, discs are still too expensive for my blood.

srb

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #87 on: 19 Jan 2010, 01:48 am »
As long as were throwing out numbers (and Frank had titled this thread "The easy way to make a $3000 CD player"), it should be noted that $3000 is the premium over the Oppo BDP-83, and the Lexicon BD-30 actually retails for $3500, 7X the price.
 
Steve

lowtech

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Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #88 on: 19 Jan 2010, 02:04 am »
All this talk about an audio company taking advantage of the buying public and nothing about Audioholics having the balls to expose it?  I think Audioholics should be commended for bringing this issue to light.  As far as filing a class action law suit; I'm afraid there is no basis.  Suing Lexicon over the repackaging of an Oppo DVD player would be like suing all cable companies for marketing 99.999% of all audio cables that sell for more than the cost of materials plus a "fair" mark-up.

Btw, Lexicon isn't the only company using Oppo innards.  The latest $10k Ayre is based on it too (but at least it has upgraded audio and power supply circuitry).

Bemopti123

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #89 on: 19 Jan 2010, 02:51 am »
Btw, Lexicon isn't the only company using Oppo innards.  The latest $10k Ayre is based on it too (but at least it has upgraded audio and power supply circuitry).

 :o
I truly respect Ayre....but a worked up Oppo with a nice casing, upgraded audio + PS upgrade for 10K?

Man, my respects have switched to Oppo bigtime.  Maybe Oppo+ pedestrian mods are a dream come true, "True" Champagne on a beer budget. 

 :thumb:

maxwalrath

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Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #90 on: 19 Jan 2010, 02:57 am »
:o
I truly respect Ayre....but a worked up Oppo with a nice casing, upgraded audio + PS upgrade for 10K?

Man, my respects have switched to Oppo bigtime.  Maybe Oppo+ pedestrian mods are a dream come true, "True" Champagne on a beer budget. 

 :thumb:

It's nice to know that a Blue Ray player that gets lots of press, and some respected manufacturers / modders here on AC can get true state of the art quality...or at least compete with $3.5-10k players. 

trebejo

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #91 on: 19 Jan 2010, 03:09 am »
All this talk about an audio company taking advantage of the buying public and nothing about Audioholics having the balls to expose it?  I think Audioholics should be commended for bringing this issue to light.

Hear hear! And thanks to Frank for fishing it out in the internet sea.

Quote
Suing Lexicon over the repackaging of an Oppo DVD player would be like suing all cable companies for marketing 99.999% of all audio cables that sell for more than the cost of materials plus a "fair" mark-up.

Yeah, well, they got Al Capone on tax evasion more than anything else. Sometimes you have to play an angle.

Brett Buck

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Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #92 on: 19 Jan 2010, 04:00 am »
Suing Lexicon over the repackaging of an Oppo DVD player would be like suing all cable companies for marketing 99.999% of all audio cables that sell for more than the cost of materials plus a "fair" mark-up.

  It's probably not valid, but that does have some appeal.

     Brett


TheChairGuy

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #94 on: 19 Jan 2010, 02:48 pm »
Brian: Without having this veer off too much from Frank's point...the circumstances are a bit more parallel than you may know from my brief mention.

We make the same exact cart in a different color, with their name (rather than our brand name) on it, add $0.35 worth of bungees to their unit.....and even use a slightly higher payload capacity on their product over ours. 

As the liability for our products with our name on it is our own (so we rate very conservatively), when we sell to another as private label they take ownership of liability for it (so it is their choice to rate it slightly less conservatively than us).  The company (actually 'companies' as we make it for a couple this way) is a Materials Handling specialist.

It's about as thinly veiled ruse as Lexicon is using to disguise the OPPO underneath, as I see it. That is to say, you're getting a fine product nonetheless....you simply pay more from one channel of distribution than another...a la my other example of the Clearaudio Talismann and Denon DL103R phono cartridges.

John

chadh

Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #95 on: 19 Jan 2010, 03:38 pm »

If I were Lexicon, I'd be furious that Oppo is taking a player that's clearly worth $3500 and selling it at a $3000 discount.  I'm sure Oppo is just doing this to generate high profits through ridiculous sales volumes.  The bastards!  They're undermining companies like Lexicon who are anxious to provide high quality products at prices that actually reflect their value to consumers.

With all due respect to Frank and other AC manufacturers, I think this problem is only exacerbated by direct-sale producers who insist on providing high quality goods at unreasonably low prices.  It conditions us all to expect great value in our purchases.

In fact, Lexicon is a great bastion of audiophilia, doing its best to save the high-end for those who truly appreciate it and are willing to pay for it.  Once we all believe that products worth $3500 should sell for $500, there will be no market in which the true innovators can carve out the rewards that keep them innovating.

Shame on you Oppo.

Chad

turkey

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Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #96 on: 19 Jan 2010, 03:57 pm »
Fancy wire vendors repackage wire all the time and charge a lot more for it. Nobody in the audio industry seems to think that's a crime.

So why all the fuss about a DVD player? :)

oneinthepipe

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Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #97 on: 19 Jan 2010, 04:04 pm »
Brian: Without having this veer off too much from Frank's point...the circumstances are a bit more parallel than you may know from my brief mention.

We make the same exact cart in a different color, with their name (rather than our brand name) on it, add $0.35 worth of bungees to their unit.....and even use a slightly higher payload capacity on their product over ours. 

As the liability for our products with our name on it is our own (so we rate very conservatively), when we sell to another as private label they take ownership of liability for it (so it is their choice to rate it slightly less conservatively than us).  The company (actually 'companies' as we make it for a couple this way) is a Materials Handling specialist.

It's about as thinly veiled ruse as Lexicon is using to disguise the OPPO underneath, as I see it. That is to say, you're getting a fine product nonetheless....you simply pay more from one channel of distribution than another...a la my other example of the Clearaudio Talismann and Denon DL103R phono cartridges.

John

John:

I can't agree.  You are selling an undisguised cart.  I am sure that they are great carts, but I doubt that the reseller is touting their research, innovation, and manufacturing in the cart.  Also, the cart is the same cart that can be purchased elsewhere, even with a different name.  The cart isn't disguised to look like their proprietary product.

The exact same teak furniture that sells at COSTCO for 159.00 sells at Front Gate for 799.00 (or something like that).   When COSTCO sells the teak furniture, the name plate is the same as the name plate as the product sold by Front Gate.  There is not any attempt to disguise the product.  There isn't any deception.  People think that COSTCO is cheaper.  That is why they shop there.

Staples sells copy paper, and I always assumed that the bought it from a paper company.  I suspect that Staples doesn't have its own paper mills.  But it is only paper.  I am relying on Staples to find a good product and sell it to me at a similar or even lower price.

Buying a Lexicon is different, IMO.  This is expensive, supposedly high-end stuff.  I assume that Lexicon's customers thought that they were paying for a Lexicon-specific design.  The BD-30 is merely an Oppo in disguise.  They disguised the player.  That is deception.  If you saw someone that you knew in disguise, except at a costume party, etc., wouldn't you be suspicious?


avahifi

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Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #98 on: 19 Jan 2010, 04:39 pm »
You know, I think that Lexicon has it backwards.

At Audio by Van Alstine we have a reputation in the past of taking old Dyna chassis and installing brand new higher quality circuits inside at a reasonable cost.

At Lexicon, it seems their new reputation is to take off the shelf circuits and put them in a brand new chassis wrapper at an outrageous cost.

Somebody is getting the values of the insides vs: the outsides all mixed up.  :)

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine

Brett Buck

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Re: The easy way to make a $3000 CD player
« Reply #99 on: 19 Jan 2010, 04:47 pm »
Fancy wire vendors repackage wire all the time and charge a lot more for it. Nobody in the audio industry seems to think that's a crime.

  Which tells you all you will ever need to know about the audio industry, and most  "audiophile" consumers.

    Brett