[DVV]

Since Bob likes to talk about religion, if you don't mind Bob, lets create a thread about it here.

I'll go first.

You always do, Rob.

I would also think if there was only one supreme being, he would get lonely, and would rather think the way most early polythisms thought, that there were a number of male and femal gods to keep themselves company.
...

If God is as perfect as all religions seem to profess, would He really be so vain as to require daily prayers, which generally seem to fall into two categories: 1) glory unto you for you are perfect (what an ego trip!), and 2) look, I need a favor, just this once, honest. Would he require to be revered so as to have palaces built in His name and called His?

I think not. If He is so perfect, and if we assume the Bible which most of us have as taken for general reference in our societies, I would think He is much more concerned with how we live than whether we light a candle or two in His name.

What is the point of the Bible - to revere Him, or to pass along messages how we should conduct ourselves in our lives and societies? If we do conduct ourselves with some attempt at grace and goodness, does He really care whether we go to church or not? Does he he reall strike a notch every time a kid misses Sunday school?

Why are the most basic messages of all religions of any significant following ignored so methodically and zealosly? And in His name, to add insult to injury? Remember, the Quran starts out with the words: "Bismillaeh rahmane raheem" (We are all God's children), much like the Bible, yet we have never seen the end of religious wars, again all in His name.

Anybody ever seen a leader of any country from time immemorial who didn't have God on his side?

So I'm cynical, but I agree with Rob - I don't mind any religion as long as it is not made to interfere with my life without my consent.

And Marbles is only telling a half-truth - he secretely worships god Bacchus, the god of wine, in ceremonies during which he explores Bacchus' domain (for intellectual research purposes only, of course, anything else is pure slander).

Cheers,
DVV

[Rob Babcock]

Bacchus would be a good one for Marbles to worship.

[jkarhan1]

I have to agree with a few other people this is probably one of the most well behaved discussions on religion. I like it.  For the most part, people have been respectful of peoples individual opinions.
Some more thoughts that relate to various comments:

-God uses both the laws of physics/science. He set them into motion. And also steps out of those bounds when he chooses to. So, yes.  Miracles and his interfacing with our lives are done both with in those laws and out side those laws.
-We can choose any framework/religion/moral code we want.  However, if you presume a creator.  Then the only framework/reality is Gods framework/reality.  It is for us to find that framework we were created to work in.
-Faith and logic are not mutually exclusive.  Faith does not require a complete lack of logic.  Both do exist in parallel and together.  Some may say they cannot. This is just an excuse not to strech the mind and look a little deeper.
Short list of people smarter than me who pulled it off:
Einstein-"science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind" and his statement that "God doesn't play dice with the universe"
Blaise Pascal- He was much affected when his niece was miraculously healed of a tumor. After he was nearly killed in a carriage accident, he was converted to a deep relationship with Jesus Christ.
Booker T. Washington.
Leonard Tolstoy.  Diest.
That’s just the short list. A would call none of these men stupid nor make fun of them for their belief.   Well.. I wouldnt make fun of someone for their beliefs or lack there of anyway  

-A personal relationship with the creator of the universe is not a scam.  I do believe and recognize some people and churches have made it into a scam.  

-Yes some people use Religion to abdicate personal responsibility.  That is a herasy on the level of people using God to manipulate and scam.  God is not pleased and that was never the intent.  Greed, consete, pride and the lust for power.  And fortunately there is a final accountability at the end.

I do belive in a Creator. Why.  Because Macro evolution is impossible. (I teach forensics and specialize in forensic DNA.  The evidence in our genitic code is staggering. And the same for microcellular biology.  If you sincerely want to know more I'll email references- If you want to argue about it.  I will not.  Ive found it usually comes down to my stack of references/books vs your stack of references/books.)  It comes down to this. I can say I have a relationship with creator of the universe as tangible as you might have with a friend.  It passed the reality/does it really work test in my life.
Joe

[Rob Babcock]

If the point of my post wasn't clear, I guess in a nutshell:  I admire the truly devout, I think it takes courage to live by a strict religious code, and I don't think someone is necessarily stupid or niave to believe in a higher power.

[jfreeman373]

If the point of my post wasn't clear, I guess in a nutshell:  I admire the truly devout, I think it takes courage to live by a strict religious code, and I don't think someone is necessarily stupid or niave to believe in a higher power.

Well, I like to believe I'm led, but as far as living according to a strict religious code; I have beliefs yes, Do I always follow them...no.  Am I wrong when I fail?  Maybe.  Should I quit trying. Never.
Hey...thanks for the backup back there.  

To jkarhan1
Seeing how your into the scientific side you might want to look into:

Transfinite numbers and set theory,
and also gematria with the numbers 37,73, and 373

Together they pretty much lay out an infinate tapestry for the creation of the universe.  This is all math and science...no "religion" here.

[ABEX]

WOW! Going on 14 pages in just 3 days.What's the record.

I guess religion is a heated topic so many centuries after it was formed.

[JohnR]

If the point of my post wasn't clear, I guess in a nutshell:  I admire the truly devout, I think it takes courage to live by a strict religious code

That's an interesting comment... I'd never thought of it that way before...

[Marbles]

You guys are incredible and I must be transparent     Of all the gods, I always thought it would be coolest to be Bacchus.

Anyone for some wine, women and song?????

[nathanm]

If there is a god who is perfect and we are made in his image then that means WE are also perfect, so anything we do here on earth wether good or ill is all part of the plan, right?  That would include murder, theft, adultery etc.  I'd guess that it is humans that frown upon these acts, not god.  Humans created a more strict code of conduct than god did, which is a good thing for us!  

I don't think we need God to determine what's right and wrong, as has been said we get these ideas by just living our lives.  Our conscience comes from living with other people, observing their behavior, thinking to ourselves "if I was in his place, would I do that?"  Eventually you realize that avoiding theiving, killing, lying and generally being a hateful bastard is just a workable way to live with others, and this conclusion didn't come from any deity, it just makes sense.  

Funny how so many religions who profess to get their orders from God spend most of their time hating other religions, hating other people and generally causing a ruckus.  Luckily I think most of these puritanical or fundamentalist types have degenerated to the fringes of society and now the majority of religious people are really closeted atheists or agnostics who grudgingly toe the line and haul their families into church a few times a year and go through all the motions you're supposed to go through.  All the while in their minds they really don't buy into it, but they don't want to cause a fuss.  Of the people I know at least, this is definitely the case.  It appears to be half-assed, but I think it is merely the evolution of the species.  People are getting smarter and clinging less and less onto ancient ideas.  I won't see the dissolution of religions in my lifetime of course, but perhaps hundreds or thousands of years in the future the human race will start waking up from their delusional thinking.

[Tyson]

When you define human life as the standard of morality, the last vestige of any need for a higher power dissapears.  

In the past, god (or gods) were used to explain things that science has now provided much better explanations for.  The last field that religion has had a lock on is morality, and more than any other reason, that is why people turn to God, for guidance (ie, they are looking for an answer to the proper way to live life, or moral guidance).  

If you ground your morality based on the value of human life, it all becomse relatively simple and straightforward, with no need for a god or any religion.

For example, why is it wrong to kill?  It violates the sanctity of human life.

Or, for a slightly more complex example, why is it wrong to steal?  Because you are taking the product of their labor, and of course labor is how we support our own lives (and by extension the lives of our families).

See, it's easy, and no mysticism needed at all.

[DVV]

You guys are incredible and I must be transparent     Of all the gods, I always thought it would be coolest to be Bacchus.

So much so, that you worship him on blind faith that he's the coolest in the gang.

Rob, I honestly don't know if you are transparent or not, but you and I must have at least one common ancestor, there's no other way I can explain the similarity between two people who have never even met. And no, I don't mean Adam, somebody nearer to us.

Anyone for some wine, women and song?????

Let us pray, brother Marbles! Let us worship in and with spirit(s) and bodies. Much spirits and many bodies.

Actually, I would nominate you for governor, never mind which state, because anywhere you made it, I'd soon see car registration plates reading something like "x, State of Orgies and Bacchanalies" My guess is we'd all see a mass exodus from other states to your state, even other countries.

But seriously, I agree with some of the people here and join them in their respect for all those who live by their faith. I suppose we all live by some faith, and we will for the moment disregard zealots, who are no strangers to any and all religions.

However, here we must start to take into acoount the very real differences in faith as experienced even in the all-encompassing Christianity, in all its flavors. Being a Serb, I come from an Orthodox Christian background, which is a VERY liberal flavor of Christianity, or at least, that's how it's interpreted locally. For centuries, Serb orthodox priests were not only allowed to, but were in fact encouraged to marry and multiply, because it was considered right that priests should not only preach, but also set practical examples of how people shoud live.

There is some history invloved here  - the Ottoman Turks, who held Serbia from 1386 until 1898 (when they were finally driven out for good), never even attempted to destroy the Orthodox church. They didn't subsidize it, but had no objaction to its accepting gifts and collecting church dues from the people. A wise decision, in my view, but it also created an attempt to produce a model of life in opposition to the muslim ways of life without actually trying to replace them by pressure, let alone force. Sort of like inviting vendors to display their goods so the people can choose.

These centuries of oppression produced a respect and admiration for the Serbian Orthodox Church which have survived the Turks in their heyday, the pogroms of the early 19th century after the first and second Serbian uprising, through Austrian occupation of Bosnia (which was then populated by about 70% of ethnic Serbs), WW1 and WW2, and then survived even the austere communist rule. It was subdued, but nobody ever dared to try to shut it down.

Thus, the Serbian Orthodox Church flavor of Christianity would appal the more zealot types and probably charm the liberal types among us. While Serbs in general joke about everything and anything, including things not to be joked with, I have never heard a joke about the Chruch as such, but have heard many about individual priests. In a nation which is notorious for a complete lack of true respect, this is most noteworthy.

I said all this in order to illustrate the point that living by the book, even the Good Book, will be incredibly different in say Rome than in say Belgrade, less than 1,000 miles away. Thus, it is true, not all saints are equal.

Cheers,
DVV

[nathanm]

You know, religion and science may not be all that different after all.  With both of them you have people that have a theory about something.  For science these are things we perceive within our world.  For religion these are things outside of our world which cannot be perceived.  Scientists can test their theories and find which ones are true or not and modify their theories accordingly.  Religion on the other hand, can only test its theory through death.  Unfortunately that researcher can no longer report their findings back to the world of the living!  Thus science continues to grow in knowledge and make progress, and religion remains stagnant, untested and never gains new knowledge because all the answers have already been provided for them in an old book.

I wonder when will god get around to writing the sequel to his popular debut?  I mean, it's been a long time since the first one hit the shelves and perhaps now is a good time to release The Bible Part II!  Heck, with modern technology he could even release it on the internet.  "Harken to me people of the Earth!  I am The Lord God and I have a new collection of stories for ye! Please download my latest Holy Word in PDF format at http://www..."

[tom1356]

I guess my real problem with god is that if he did exist he would not be worthy of worship.
I want him recalled.
Pick up the paper and you get...
30,000 killed by god in Iran with an earthquake.
14 Christians at a bible camp were killed by god on Christmas with a mud slide.
1,000’s of children were, and are, being raped by priests who are doing gods work.
Plus the countless daily atrocities all over the world.
Free will is just a copout for having no response so save it for someone else.

I keep salt water fish. The tank is my world and with it I play god.
What would you think of me...
...If I were to starve to death the fish on one side of the tank while the fish on the other side had plenty to eat?
...If I were to allow bigger fish to abuse and kill the smaller fish?
...If I were to turn the temperature up or down so much that some of them died?
I hold god to the same standards I hold people to and he doesn’t measure up in any way.
If I were a person who needed a deity to make my life complete I would be left wanting.
Thank god I don’t.

[DVV]

When you define human life as the standard of morality, the last vestige of any need for a higher power dissapears.  

In the past, god (or gods) were used to explain things that science has now provided much better explanations for.  The last field that religion has had a lock on is morality, and more than any other reason, that is why people turn to God, for guidance (ie, they are looking for an answer to the proper way to live life, or moral guidance).  

Reminds me of Jack Nicholson's great line in "Witches of Eastwick", in which Jack plays the Devil (very fitting, it seems):

"When we make a mistake, people say it's evil; when God makes a mistake, people call it forces of nature".

For example, why is it wrong to kill? It violates the sanctity of human life.

Ah, but do we?

Don't we start wars to end wars? Don't we kill to stop killing? Don't we exonerate, nay - cheer! - killing that is said to be necessary to stop killing?

What killing ever stopped yet more killings? What war was ever started without God on everybody's side?

Who is gullible enough to believe all that drivel about the sanctity of human life (which is that only for a slong as the TV cameras are focused), in a world where wars are business as usual?

And who needs wars to kill? Hell no, there are better ways - sanctions, for example. Who remembers the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children effectively killed by sanctions - not bullets? Was that moral, did that show the sanctity of human life?

You know, if the Devil ever did anything right, it was two things:

1. He convinced the human race that he does not exist, and
2. He invented high politics, "state reasons of security" and "national interests".

Mention any one of them and the sanctity of human life is reduced to nothing.

Cheers,
DVV

[Tyson]

I'm not talking politics, I'm talking morality.  The fact that politicians try to justify pre-emptive killings does not justify it.  Political expediency is not moral rectitude.

[tom1356]

"...And who needs wars to kill? Hell no, there are better ways - sanctions, for example. Who remembers the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children effectively killed by sanctions - not bullets? Was that moral, did that show the sanctity of human life? "

Nice try.
This is patently untrue. The reason for any deaths was Sadam's spending the money he was supposed to use on food and medicine to build palaces and enrich himself.
With help of course from the french, russians, and the germans.

[Rob Babcock]

Great- our perfectly venomous indictment of religion is turning political.

[Neighborhood Troll]

10 things that will take you to hell.


1: More wars have been started in the name of God and people murdured in the name of God that for any other reason.

2: Science now proves the reasons for many things that could not be proven many years before. that's why religions were made up.

3: If God were real, he wouldn't let good people die and orphans starve in Ethiopia.

4: God made man, right? then why does he blame man for sinning? God can't be pure and good if he created something that can sin.

5: Your prejudiced if you think one religion is better than any other. and i'm NOT prejudiced for saying that. I'M ENTITLED TO MY BELIEFS!

6: Jesus was not GOD in human form. he was a good man, good teacher, prophet or something. maybe he pulled a few herbal remedies out from his sleeve, BUT NO MIRICLES! that's impossible!

7: The universe was created by itself. Everything just kinda magically appeared out of nothingness, or there was this big bang, kinda, thingy, and everything develloped from that. (but where'd the big bang, kinda, thingy, come from?  )

8: I'm the God of my own destiny!

9: The Bible? Written by MAN! with man's interpretation. it means nothing to me.

10: Heaven is going to be BORING! if there even is one. OR i will cross that bridge when i get there!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

first of all, so all you know where im comming from, the universe did not create itself. it goes beyond logic to believe that things come into exsistance on their own accord. to believe that, you have to have more faith than is required to get into heaven ten times over.

second, for that reason, if you have bee pursuaded so far, you must concede that God does exsist.

now, if you had a nightclub, would you let just any riffraff off the street into your speacial VIP room? i think not. so you have a speacial membership. those people that you approve of. well, God is alot bigger than the whole world put together. don't you think his membership terms are going to be a little bit strincter? in fact, since he IS GOD, i think it would be a good idea if  he demand that everybody has to be as perfect and holy as he is, or else they can't get in the VIP room, err, i mean Heaven. (OOPS, thats not an origional idea i guess, he already does! hee hee)

By the Way, did you accept the terms and conditions of use on this forum? i bet you did. well, God has terms and conditions for use of His forum too!

anyways, God is a little bit nicer than we are, so he is going to want EVERYBODY to attend His party.

Except, wait a minuit, he is all knowing. that means he knew before He created man that man would turn against Him, betray Him, and rebel against Him, even when He only wanted goodness and love for the man.

God has quite a delema. he wants everybody to come to the party, but there are no people yet. everybody has to be as perfect as He is, or else they can't get in. But He knows they are ALL going to turn out ROTTEN to the core. not a single one of them is going to be decent. not even if they really really try really really HARD!

you all know the rest. God sacrificed His Son. and those are the terms and conditions to get into the party. to get a Gold plated membership, you have to accept those terms and conditions. Jesus died to take your guilt on Himself. if you accept that, then you get the membership card. its as simple as that.

also, you have to repent of your sins, and agree to obey God, who, from the beginning only wanted you to attend His party. So, he's only going to tell you things to do that will prepare you for His party.

[Tyson]

first of all, so all you know where im comming from, the universe did not create itself. it goes beyond logic to believe that things come into exsistance on their own accord.

So, the universe can't simply exist, but god can?  How is that possible?

If things don't come in to existence by their own accord, then how did god supposedly get here?

I mean, are saying that "in order for anything (the universe, people, planets, stars, etc) to exist, they had to have been created, they simply don't spring in to existence from nothingness".

If so, then since God exists (supposedly), how did he come to be?  Since by your own assertion things cannot simply "poof" in to existence of their own accord, by extension, God must have been created!  But created by who/what?  Another god?  well, it must have been another god, since nothing comes into existence spontaneously.  But where did the Creator's Creator come from?  Well, there must have been another Creator.  And it keeps going like this ad infinitum.

I seriously would like you to address these questions, they are NOT rhetorical, but are asked in the sense of really wanting an answer.

[Neighborhood Troll]

we look at things from a timeline point of view. "where did God come from? When?"

God is exsisting in all points of time simultaniously. in fact, the entire universe is encompassed by him. because He is a Spirit.

Whats a Spirit? good question. who knows. but God is one. and we all have a spirit too, because we were made in his image. it is because God is Spirit that gives him the ability to be everywere present. and because the universe is encompassed by God, how can we even determine what is outside of God? or who can even speculate the nature or atributes of God. we are, after all, talking about GOD. He's not just this dude on a big white throne.