[Marbles]

Hell is not a firey place... it is just a place that is seperated from god for eternity; Knowing that you can never reach him. That frustration, regret, and eternal lamenting is the fire that burns your soul forever .

Where did you learn this?

In the bible it has the story of how Lucifer fell out of (grace) heaven to become King of the Underworld etc.. That God was to be feared...

Maybe you are thinking of pergatory......

[Tyson]

Marbles, its interesting that you bring up lucifer, as he presents a very unique problem to the general view held on god.

The general belief seems to be that man was created so we could love god by choice (free will), as that was more pleasing to him (and we know that god wants to be pleased).  Why were the angels not enough, why is man necessary?  Well, the story goes that man has free will and the angels do not, and since the angels are more or less forced to love god (no free will), the fact that man chooses to love god is infinitely more pleasing than the angel's love and adoration of god.

But if angels do not have free will, then how the hell could lucifer ever rebel and reject god?  How could he have convinced a large heavenly host of angels to join him in his attempt to overthrow god?  Surely this is free will?

And if it is free will, then angels DO have free will, and man's importance and value is greatly reduced.  

If angels DO NOT have free will, then god must have ORDERED lucifer to rebel, which then makes god look manipulative and petty.  

Any way you slice it, it really does not make much sense.

[jfreeman373]

Hell is not a firey place... it is just a place that is seperated from god for eternity; Knowing that you can never reach him. That frustration, regret, and eternal lamenting is the fire that burns your soul forever .

Where did you learn this?

In the bible it has the story of how Lucifer fell out of (grace) heaven to become King of the Underworld etc.. That God was to be feared...

Maybe you are thinking of pergatory......

From what you are refering, for a lack of better knowledge on my part has to do with the catholic religion?  I am not catholic nor do I wish to be, or any other religion for that fact.  Where I learned that was in my spirit, through communion with God I guess. To me it is fact, to you it is my opinion.  I can not prove or disprove it with the words of men from the past, present, or future.   But I know it to be true nonetheless because I have been seperated from God most of my life,and even rebelling to the max... and looking back on it... It WAS truly HELL.

[Tyson]

Where I learned that was in my spirit, through communion with God I guess. To me it is fact, to you it is my opinion. I can not prove or disprove it with the words of men from the past, present, or future.

Thank you, you have put the matter as succintly as I ever could.  As I see it, this is the only REAL way of knowing god.  Direct, devine communion.  That is my standard for belief.  When I have it I will undoubtedly be a fervent believer.  Since I don't, I am not.

[Marbles]

yes it is from the catholics that I got most of my religous training, some from my fathers side, the Lutherans.

I think you have a cool beleif system.  I hope it works for you.

Myself, I hope there are not 72 virgins waiting for me in heaven.  I would prefer 72 desease free dynamite looking sluts who want nothing but to please me with earthly pleasures, oh and an open bar......

[jfreeman373]

[quote="Tyson] Direct, devine communion.  That is my standard for belief. [/quote]

This a very good standard to have IMO.

[tom1356]

"Any way you slice it, it really does not make much sense."

Well yeah.
Take the money out of religion and it disapears in a puff of logic.
If you think about it for a second it makes you feel foolish for ever believing.


For some reason i'm Remembering things I never knew about Sammy Jenkins.

[Marbles]

Myself, I hope there are not 72 virgins waiting for me in heaven.  I would prefer 72 desease free dynamite looking sluts who want nothing but to please me with earthly pleasures, oh and an open bar......

Hey, anyone want to start a religion with me  

[Tyson]

One last post (addressed more to the group than to any one in particular), on the topic of sin and gods responsibility for it.

Going with the genetics analogy (which is a good one, and one I hadn't heard of thought of before - thanks!!) if the fruit altered our genetic code and thus introduced a genetic flaw, this would seem to put the responsibility for sin on man, and absolving god of any responsibility (ie, we did it to ourselves, and now have to live with the flaw/mutation).  But in fact it does not, because god is ALL KNOWING.  Which means he know IN ADVANCE that this would happen, that it was inevitable, and yet he DID IT ANYWAY.  And of course, all the suffering, all the pain, all the death followed very quickly.  That, IMO, truly sucks.  

It wasn't even a MISTAKE, he did it to us ON PURPOSE.  By concious design!!!  Oh, that's bad.

[jfreeman373]

yes it is from the catholics that I got most of my religous training, some from my fathers side, the Lutherans.

I think you have a cool beleif system.  I hope it works for you.

Thanks.  It is a belief system, but HOPEFULLY it isn't mine.  As far as working...what does that mean?  If you mean that I recieve alot of good things in this life.....uhhhhhhhh I would say it is not working at all.  As far as recieveing peace and over all well being....ummmmm (sometimes).  As far as learning alot of cool things about the inner workings of the human mind and soul and a few vague universal truths... DEFINATELY. Still learning to be a good student.  I don't always get an A, I don't always show up for class, but when the pressure is on I can ace a test most of the time.  Just don't ask me what it is was I was supposed to have learned the week after.

[Marbles]

As far as working...what does that mean?...

I mean I hope it brings to you all the things that a religious beleif system should bring to you.  

Since I don't have one, I'm a little vague on what that should be exactly.  Certainly inner peace would be one thing I would hope you have though.

[jfreeman373]

But in fact it does not, because god is ALL KNOWING. Which means he know IN ADVANCE that this would happen, that it was inevitable, and yet he DID IT ANYWAY. And of course, all the suffering, all the pain, all the death followed very quickly. That, IMO, truly sucks.

.

Maybe it was kind of like spinning a top.  You know that it will spin,and you know that it will stop, but while it is spinning it is really cool to watch.  You understand how it works, but you don't know which direction it will go or for how long.  But you do know the beginning and the END of it's course.Knowing that the top will eventually stop do you not bother spinning it?  Anyways what harm is it if it stops, you know that you can make it spin as many times as you want to forever.  But you know what? For as long as you play with that top it is recieveing a whole lot of attention from a conscious being grater than it's self.  Shouldn't the top rejoice in the fact that it is being played with, rather than just being laid around for the dog to find and chew up and destroy?

Well, you already know what I think, so I'll just let you think what you think, because I can't change or know all of it anyway nor would I want to. That would be between you and your higher other(for al you AA people out there ). If he wasn't calling then why enter the thread labelled "RELIGION DISCUSSED HERE"? Unless you are already searching somewhere in your heart and mind for the truth.

I must go to bed now, so I will stop my ramblings for now

[Sa-dono]

Myself, I hope there are not 72 virgins waiting for me in heaven.  I would prefer 72 desease free dynamite looking sluts who want nothing but to please me with earthly pleasures, oh and an open bar......

Hey, anyone want to start a religion with me  

Well are you going to make this Heaven on Earth?

[Sa-dono]

If he wasn't calling then why enter the thread labelled "RELIGION DISCUSSED HERE"? Unless you are already searching somewhere in your heart and mind for the truth.

There is more than just one religion...

[Marbles]

Myself, I hope there are not 72 virgins waiting for me in heaven.  I would prefer 72 desease free dynamite looking sluts who want nothing but to please me with earthly pleasures, oh and an open bar......

Hey, anyone want to start a religion with me  

Well are you going to make this Heaven on Earth?

Well it never took 72 sluts to please and satisfy me here......I would be satisfied with just a few..and that open bar.

I guess now I have to go on a recruiting trip for the high exalted ladies for my church.  Once you have those, the guys will flock to my religion.

HHHHMMMM maybe I found a way around that pesky prostitution law.

Just make a cash donation and my ladies will give you a heavenly experience  

[infiniti driver]

I can just imagine what Brother Bob will say about all of this!

Basically, a relationship with God is a personal one. The church (of choice) is the vehicle for fellowship and
understanding/teaching/communion and "religion" is a vehicle that can get in the way of that personal relationship if one lets it. Organized religion (to me) has its downfalls and shortcomings. It is YOUR personal relationship with God is all that really matters.

I remember when I was "saved". This was when I quickly realized that belief in Jesus who died on the cross to save mankind of his or her sins is not a magic bullet. You are "born again" and are a baby in Christ. Much learning, praying and asking to be blessed and many years later, I still have my faults, my human desires and continue to be a sinner. I will admit that as it is stated in the bible: "all fall short" and "all have sinned", being saved and being blessed comes with another can of worms that truly makes one scratch their head and wonder. Temptations become stronger but they are checked.



No one is perfect, all have sinned and all will sin. That is the human nature. That God gave us his only son that was sacrificed on the cross and who I believe rose from the dead and was put here to save all mankind from their sins and takes the weight of our sins is a friend I like to have around as much as possible. I feel great to know Jesus walks beside me in spirit.

Religion can be a headache. No one should ever be ashamed of stating they are a Christian or not. Although I have a personal relationship with Jesus...I will say that this relationship is no where close to what it should be because of my stupidity and lack of leaning on him more often.

Personally, I need no "proof" their is a creator. The proof is in my heart. I wish others can have the peace that I have because of this relationship. All you have to do is to ask and keep asking. One thing for sure...while you are asking, it is pretty hard to get in trouble.


I have been a hell raiser. I do things that many (of the church realm) would not admit. I have some drinks, I smoke my smokes, I sin. Does it mean I am a bad person? That is for God to decide. We simply don't know all the answers and honestly, anyone that discredits the idea of a belief system...whatever they choose to believe or not believe, you are my Brother too! I don't make any bones about it..I have f*cked up and will again. I just hope to have the knowledge of the consequenses of those actions ahead of time so I do not get into a situation that will lead me down the spiral of death. Hell is right here baby....anything that can keep that at bay...I am all for it...and believing keeps (in my heart) a tight rein on it.

I cannot convert anyone to any choice that must be made in their heart. Christians have a yearning to spead the good news so others can be at peace as well. All I can do is to tell you it is benificial to be humble and ask YOUR God for forgiveness, mercy and leadership. It is a choice that you can make if you want to. If you don't want to, I am not going to cram anything down anyones neck. Those who have tried and did not feel anything or have a life changing event unfold before your very eyes...well I am so sorry. I really wish it can happen to you..but then again if it does not, then you simply are not ready and it is not for me judge one way or another. One thing that is common. Everyone I know that has accepted Jesus as their personal saviour has improved their lifestyle SIGNIFICANTLY and have a sense of peace and freedom from negitivity that radiates throught their soul.

Again, it is a PERSONAL situation. It is indivigual. Many do not want it and if it is their wishes, then I still love you. Drugs are for sick people and all of us humans are sick to the core. Jesus happens to be my drug of choice, we sickos need him...all of him!

[nathanm]

I was raised a Roman Catholic which is an excellent way to end up a atheist later in life.  I think I've been a closet atheist for a long time, but it's been only in the last few years that I have fully embraced the idea.  The constant nagging guilt and fear of punishment from god after death put into you by the Christian faith is extremely powerful and difficult to shake off.  However, in recent years I have graduated to being a devout atheist and it feels much better.  Christianity in my experience has sought to suppress every natural instinct and urge that humans are born with.  It is this constant yoke around your neck.  I truly think it has done more harm to the world than good.  Any belief system that seeks to embrace lies over truth, even if there are positive side effects to the lies, is evil to me.

"Religion, of course, _does_ make some men better, and perhaps even many men. There can be no doubt of it. But making them better by filling their poor heads with grotesque nonsense is an irrational and wasteful process, and the harm it does greatly outweighs the good. If men could be made better--or even only happier--by teaching them that two and two make five there would be plenty of fools to advocate that method, but it would remain anti-social none the less." - H.L. Mencken

Religions would be more tolerable if they simply taught about the manner in which humans should behave and treat each other and their environment.  But instead it is interwoven with all this supernatural rubbish and fairy tales; stories which are as far-fetched as the books written by modern writers which EVERYONE accepts as fiction.  Why is the Bible accepted as the word of an omnipotent deity instead of a long series of human authors and editors?  Why is the Bible alone taken as historical fact?  Simply because it is old?  If the writings of J.R.R. Tolkien were discovered in 10,000 years from now does that mean that the world was created by Illuvatar and his team of Ainur?  Are all bad things humans do really the result of a being called Melkor who poisoned their minds?

"The time must come inevitably when mankind shall surmount the imbecility of religion, as it has surmounted the imbecility of religion's ally, magic. It is impossible to imagine this world being really civilized so long as so much nonsense survives. In even its highest forms religion embraces concepts that run counter to all common sense. It can be defended only by making assumptions and adopting rules of logic that are never heard of in any other field of human thinking."
- H.L. Mencken

I think that religion and belief in gods are simply a part of human evolution that will eventually go away.  We will grow out of it over time. (I hope)  To me religions thrived because people did not have the capacity to fully understand their world, so they made stuff up to make it more bearable in their own brains.  Just look at the things people have believed to be true in the past few hundred years which is now known to be absurd.  In time this rubbish about these invisible, mute, inactive beings which still manage to control all our lives and threaten us with post mortem punishments will disappear and be laughed at by future humans for the obvious jokes they are.

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic. - Douglas Adams

A wonderful website:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/

[jfreeman373]

If the writings of J.R.R. Tolkien were discovered in 10,000 years from now does that mean that the world was created by Illuvatar and his team of Ainur? Are all bad things humans do really the result of a being called Melkor who poisoned their minds?
..

It may be be so.  Seeing how J.R.R.Tolkien was a devout christian and his books are direct reflection of his beliefs and conversings with C.S.Lewis.  If man could understand a tenth of what tolkien was trying to say 10,000 years from now, they would be well off, seeing how for the most part they would understand the analagies to real life that Tolkien was trying to make that reflect the teachings of the bible.

Who do you think that was in the second movie that slayed the demon in the bottomless pit and rose again clothed in white, riding that white stalion that cam from the east and slaughtered the oraqui in the valley at dawn?

I do believe that was a representation of christ, and when they find that book  far into that future of yours... will they stumble yet again when they find the truth in their hands once more?

[jfreeman373]

?

[Rob Babcock]

Geez, I leave for a couple hours and looks what pops up!   This is one of the more interesting threads in weeks, if not ever.  I'm curious what Bob will have to say about it.