[Neighborhood Troll]

also, your talking about God and the universe as if they have to share the same attributes. God created the universe. it must obey the laws that govern it based on what HE decides. God does not have to follow any law except His own word. He cannot lie.

[Marbles]

God created the universe. it must obey the laws that govern it based on what HE decides. God does not have to follow any law except His own word. He cannot lie.

He's not just this dude on a big white throne.

To each of your statements I ask:  How do you know?  Why can't he lie?

How do you know he invented the universe?  Who invented him?  What came first, the universe or God?

[Tyson]

So you are saying that GOD could always simply have existed, but the universe cannot have?  Or are you saying god and the universe are one and the same thing?

You are merely re-asserting your belief that god created the universe, which I already know is your belief.  It does not address my questions.

Let me try a different track.

In your belief system, is it possible for god to exist without the universe?  

If yes, then why is it so hard to understand my belief of the universe existing without god?

God does not have to follow any law except His own word. He cannot lie.

Are you sure he cannot lie?  If he doesn't have to follow anything except his own will, I don't think there's much to stop him from lying, if he wanted to

[DVV]

Are you sure he cannot lie? If he doesn't have to follow anything except his own will, I don't think there's much to stop him from lying, if he wanted to

Taking this thought a bit further, can God lie at all? In both cases, it's his word, and since his word is all there is, who's to judge God to be a liar, when the second is just as much his as the first?

Naw, he just changed his mind, 's all. That ain't lying.

Cheers,
DVV

[Tyson]

Since god can do anything, can he make a rock so big that he cannot lift it?  Hahaha

Regarding lying, I wish I had that power - no, I don't lie, I simply re-create reality to conform to my whims

[nathanm]

Why would anyone even waste their time thinking about how the universe came to be?  It doesn't really matter, we cannot answer that question.  And if god created the universe, then who created god?  Who created the being that created god and who created him?  Somewhere along the line you must assume that the universe is just there and that's that - who cares about why.  This line of questioning is pointless.  

A VIP club, eh?  Well, there's no way Heaven can be any sort of paradise if everyone in it retained the same personality they had while alive on earth.  It would merely be a mirror image of earth, with all the same problems.  How many people can you reasonably expect to get into the same room before a fight breaks out?  Not a whole lot.  I would imagine heaven to be a place of complete chaos considering it's filled with generation after generation of dead souls.  Are there partitions to keep people away from each other in case there's trouble?  I know there's like seven rings of Hell, but I am not so sure about heaven.  If anyone's got a floor plan, please post it!  Thanks!

[Neighborhood Troll]

ok the issue of lying. First of all, to put it terms that you might be able to more readilly understand, God is so big, he does not have to lie. there is no point. what would be the point in lying to a bug? lets think here. why don't we all go out and start talking to the ants. and while we're at it, let tell them something that is not true.

here's another way of looking at it. what God says, happens. His word, literally becomes reality. He SPOKE the world into exsistence. so, therefore, whatever God says comes true. therefore, God cannot lie.


and secondly, this universe obeys rules. if those rules are broken, the universe would self destruct. take the gravity force for exsample, if the gravity force was just the fractionest ammount too weak, all the matter in the universe would not be able to hold itself together. or if the strong and electro-magnetic forces were slightly unballanced, the universe would dissolve in a cataclismic nuclear explosion of unimaginable proportions. now do you understand what i mean by RULES?

God does not have to obey these rules. so, in a universe where things cannot simply come into exsistance on there own, someone had to create them. by the way, if there were so much as one atom to instantly appear in this universe outside God's protecting us, the universe would not be big enough to contain it and explode.

[nathanm]

God does not have to obey these rules. so, in a universe where things cannot simply come into exsistance on there own, someone had to create them. by the way, if there were so much as one atom to instantly appear in this universe outside God's protecting us, the universe would not be big enough to contain it and explode.

Cool! I hope that happens very soon.

[Neighborhood Troll]

A VIP club, eh? Well, there's no way Heaven can be any sort of paradise if everyone in it retained the same personality they had while alive on earth....

that's why when a person gets saved, God gives them a new Spririt, that is like His. its perfect, so when you get to heaven, you will be too!

[Tyson]

How do you know the universe obeys rules?  Because people have meticulously and doggedly dedicated their lives to the fullest understanding of the universe.  These "rules" are not simply figments of someones imagination, they can be easily demonstrated to any or all that are interested.

The same cannot be said for your god.  Please give me SOMETHING besides your mere say-so, that this supposed being actually exists.  You've re-iterated over and over again that you believe in God.  Please give me something more demonstrative than just your opinion/assertion.

Do you see the difference between my Universe rules example, and your Godly assertions?  The fact that the universe has rules can be demonstrated outside of anyones assertion or say so.  We can directly observe the effects of gravity.  The same cannot be said of your assertions of this supernatural super-being.  

So, please give strong evidence that this being not only exists, but that he exists with the characteristics that you claim he has.

The ball is in your court.

[DVV]

No!

No, I am not trying to involve politics in this discussion, although I don't see how you can take it out at all, when it was the Bringer of His Word, the Holy Church, which in the name of God but for the purpose of politics started a hell of a lot of wars.

But I was unclear, that's true.

I simply wanted to point out that today we have sanctions which kill just as surely as the sieges of yesteryear did. In the name of God, of course.

How? Simple - God gave us all the right to defend ourselves. What better defence than to attack the enemy on his ground, not ours? Are then not fulfilling the right which was God given to us, to protect ourselves and our families from the evil ones?

How else can I see those who never miss a church sermon on Sundays, praise God in their speeches, and calmly condamn thousands to death "out there somewhere"?

And what is God doing about that? Nothing I can see. It's done in his name, so if he objects, surely he should do something to stop it and see justice done to those who falsely call on him for justification. Or conversly, if God does nothing about it, then his silence and inactivity will sooner or later be interpreted as tacit agreement. Wherefore is then His perfection, when he first creates us, and then kills us by allowing us to be killed if not directly?

And it's not just now, as if we have sinned too much. It's always been so, war is no news on this planet, rather it appears to be our way of life, even if it is in direct opposition to the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment. Has anybody ever managed to count all the wars, never mind the victims, played out by man? 7,000 years of recorded history and we have an endless state of war which just shifts its geographic location.

Where is God in all this, aside from being said to be on everybody's side? Where is the perfection of the perfect being all this while the human race consistently went against everything said to be His commandments?

How many faces does God have? Was he a paleface, a Chinese, or perhaps African? Or an Arab? How many interpretations can He take before He realizes there is nothing left of him?

But of course, being the Supreme Being popped out of nowhere, he doesn't need to worry about petty details like that ...

Cheers,
DVV

[nathanm]

Everyone's the same in heaven then, eh?  Where's the fun in that?  What do you talk to one another about for the rest of eternity?  So does each spirit look the same too?  How drab. A trillion identical spirits, isn't that exciting!

I must say, you have very arcane knowledge there, troll.  I wish I was half as smart as you are.  I wish I could be like you.  You should start your own cult I think, since you are one of god's messengers.

[Neighborhood Troll]

ok, my pastor knows a guy that died from a car crash. he had a ruptured aorta. the doctors laid him asside and started working on someone else. while the man was dead, an angel took him to the gates of heaven, and istructed him to explain why he should be allowed entry. i won't tell all the rest. but the man was clinically dead.

no brain functions. no heart beat. nothing. then all of a sudden he came back to life, fully healed. he wrote a book about it called plecebo.

now, in this natural universe, that CANNOT happen. see my first post on this topic. hehe.

[DVV]

Everyone's the same in heaven then, eh?  Where's the fun in that?

Huh? You mean there ain't no women in Heaven? What's the point, then?

 What do you talk to one another about for the rest of eternity?

Well, you could say: "I was listening to the Heavenly Angel Choir the other day, and their mid range is a little off, while the high range is a a little metallic. Time to do something about that awful power amplification!"

So does each spirit look the same too?  How drab. A trillion identical spirits, isn't that exciting!

Well, brother Theodore says it all, very explicitly.

Cheers,
DVV

[Neighborhood Troll]

id dont have any knowlege that is not easily accessable to you. there is nothing arcane about it. haven't you ever heard the term "born again"? thats where it comes from. and dont you think that if God can give you a unique spirit the first time around, he can do better the second?

[Neighborhood Troll]

well, i certainly got a ball rolling here. that's my job!

[nathanm]

Yeah you got the ball rolling allright, I mean, we were only on the 15th page by the time you showed up!

haven't you ever heard the term "born again"?

Of course I have.  That song ROCKS!

[Tyson]

I'm still waiting for an answer to my questions. . .

[nathanm]

I'm still waiting for an answer to my questions. . .

Have you tried prayer?

[Tyson]

It would seem that I am ALREADY engaged in a monologue here, so I don't thing prayer would differ much.