[nathanm]

Who do you think that was in the second movie that slayed the demon in the bottomless pit and rose again clothed in white, riding that white stalion that cam from the east and slaughtered the oraqui in the valley at dawn?

Gandalf, like Christ, are both figments of somebody's imagination.  (Maybe Marbles can refer to some more historical evidence on the origins of Jesus, but regardless of that - I don't believe he was the son of god, born of a virgin, nor rose from the dead and ascended into heaven)  Besides that, the point is that Tolkien simply did what the creators of the Bible did, make up a really great story.  Just so happens that the Bible has been through the editorial wringer for a few thousand more years and is a bit worse for wear.

I don't object to teachings about what is right and wrong, I just think that it cripples any kind of worthwhile message when you mix it in with stories that are impossibly absurd.  People can figure out these things for themselves without having to be taught from some ancient books of a dubious origin.

[jfreeman373]

If he wasn't calling then why enter the thread labelled "RELIGION DISCUSSED HERE"? Unless you are already searching somewhere in your heart and mind for the truth.

There is more than just one religion...

Yes... but there is only one TRUTH!
Can they all be right?
Can they all be wrong?
Can any of them be right?
Can any of them be wrong?

Religions are created by man's search for the truth.

If there are so many religions that all think they are right; while god frowns upon them all; for seeking to be right; when what they should be seeking is the correctness of their revelation.... then why are all of them wrong?  

How many people and their theories of existence they defend  must we wade through before mankind realizes that the truth cannot be found through the arrogance in the understanding of man's mind.  It is only through revelation from the divine that any truth can ever be revealed to the minds of human understanding.  

[nathanm]

What is the ONE Truth?

[lonewolfny42]

What is the ONE Truth?

I'll tell you....Man was created to buy audio equipement !   ....( I can't believe it , nine pages in one nite, and still going! )

[jfreeman373]

I could answer that....or  I could attempt to anyways.  Then again I could pass.  Which choice would lead the calf to the slaughter more abruptly?  

If I knew the one truth I would be like unto a God myself. For now we see through a glass darkly.  I do not attempt to be such a knowlegeable creature.  What truth I do know is this. that the more I know...the more I know that  I DON'T KNOW.  That in turn points out to me that I need to become more knowledgable and ask God for the understanding of that knowledge and that he would reveal that and more knowledge and understanding in me.

Knowing that which I understand I recieve, and have recieved, is outside the abilities of myself and my own minds imagination and creation and failing attempts to unravell the mysteries not yet revealed unto my minds eye...proves to me that their IS one divine mind that created the universe and directs those things which are ordered by HIM. Those whom will be led shall follow, yet those who follow shall ALSO lead those who will follow.

[nathanm]

Okay, so you admit that you are not knowledgeable and that there are things you just don't know but yet DO know that there is a god-like power that controls the universe?  It just doesn't add up.  Doubting should lead one to NOT believing in god if anything, not believing in him!  

If you're waiting for god to reveal some kind of divine knowledge to you, I have a strong feeling you're going to be waiting for a loooong time.  Until the day you die most likely.  Heck, I myself have prayed for many things in my life and not and single one of them ever was granted.  Similarly, I have made many birthday wishes when blowing out the candles on my cake and most of them have not come true either.  The light of birthday candles seem equally as impotent as the Light of the Lord in this business of wish granting!  

But let us not doubt the powers of the Saved just yet.  They could prove useful.  For example, I'd love to get some advice from those people who have a "Personal Relationship With Jesus Christ" because let me tell ya, there's a lot of folks I'd like to have a "close personal relationship" with,  but whom I have never seen in person, and who for all intents and purposes are about as palpable as Christ to me.  Like Laetitia Casta for example.  Now, I have only seen pictures of her and read stories about her and I believe she does exist, but at the same time I have not perceived her physically.  So how do I go about having a personal relationship with this woman?  You faithful folk have some mad phat skillz if you claim to converse with the Almighty, so I am wondering if you've got any tips for those of a more, shall we say - corporeal persuasion?  I mean, if there's people who can hang with JC Himself I'd think that hooking me up with Ms. Casta should be a walk in the park, right!?

Religions are created by man's search for the truth.

So...searching for the truth means making stuff up?  So the truth is created, rather than observed and  tested? Religous 'truth' is indeed an invention, a fabrication, a creation of Man.  Unfortunately that tends to negate it being Truth at all.

As usual, Mencken says it better than I can:

"Christianity, for all its wounds, is not likely to die; even its forms will not die; the forms, indeed will preserve what remains of the substance. Of all religions ever devised by man, it is the one that offers the most for the least money to the average man of our time. This man may be very briefly described. He had enough education to make him view all religions somewhat critically, to make him competent to weight and estimate them, particularly in terms of their capacity to meet his own problems--but not enough to analyze the concepts underlying them. Such an analysis leads inevitably to agnosticism; a man who once reaches the point of examining religions as psychological phenomena, without regard to the ostensible authority, always ends by rejecting all of them. But the average man is incapable of any such examination, and his incapacity not only safeguards his religion but also emphasizes his need of it. He must have _some_ answer to the maddening riddle of existence, and, being unable to work out a logical or evidential answer, he is thrown back upon a mystical answer.

This mystical answer is religion. It is a transcendental solace in the presence of the intolerable. It is a stupendous begging of questions that nevertheless disposes of them. Of all such answers Christianity is at once the simplest and the most reassuring. It is protean and elastic; it has infinite varieties; it has comfort both for the man revolting despairingly against reason or congenitally incapable of reason, and for the man whose capacity for reason stops just short of intelligence. It is, at its best, a profound inner experience, a kind of poetry that is lived--call it Catholicism. It is, at its worst, a game of supernatural politics--call it Methodism. But in either case it organizes and gives a meaning to life. In either case it soothes the man who is too weak to stand up single-handed against the eternal and intolerable mysteries."

[jfreeman373]

Okay, so you admit that you are not knowledgeable and that there are things you just don't know but yet DO know that there is a god-like power that controls the universe? It just doesn't add up. Doubting should lead one to NOT believing in god if anything, not believing in him!  

Patience does not mean to doubt.

I admit that I HAD a lack of knowledge in certain areas in which now I do NOT have a lack of k/U. Of course I am not knowledgeable in all things, but I can see more clearly now. It is through Gods presence in my life that I have become aware and enlightened in regards that pertain to the well being (or lack thereof) of my inner self and those around me. So no... I do not doubt. I wait on the lord to lead me in the direction I should go.  

You faithful folk have some mad phat skillz if you claim to converse with the Almighty, so I am wondering if you've got any tips for those of a more, shall we say - corporeal persuasion?

Hey now...If you can get abducted by an alien name Vxzluod, why can't I speak with the almighty?

Let me ask you this. Would you listen if you could hear?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

[byteme]

What is the ONE Truth?

I thought it was Neo??  Didn't we determine that after he yanked Trinity out of the helicopter before it 'sploded into that big glass building??

[infiniti driver]

The comfort in knowing we "cannot do it all" and dealing with the troubles on this earth (personal troubles) via landing the weight of them on a faith "higher than oneself" real...or imaginary, gives abilities to "look beyond" such troubles and seek greener pastures.

It is faith based. The miracles bestowed in dealing with such troubles through faith is the very essense of "walking beside Jesus". This belief in a faith base of KNOWING we are powerless to certain things, that their is a force that lives with me that was put in motion to help cope PERSONALLY with situations and issues as they arise is a form of devine comfort Christians enjoy.

Some and many say "hogwash" to the notion of it all...in comparison with a child with the imaginary friend. Everyone (at least for now in this Country) has the freedom to exersise whichever form of expression of comfort they seek. Some seek booze, drugs, rituals, hanging with bikers (and the ownership of the bike) and other choose different paths. It is a "choice" and whether it be right or wrong or different, that choice is definitly yours to take. I do feel that those seeking information on the subject of Jesus Christ do so with an open mind and seek it for personal benifit. No one...not even Christ himself can do that for you. Again, neither are my problems solved through salvation..I just don't spend hours worring about them, feel at peace and go forward with my head up knowing God will not put more on me than I can take.

Religion is a monster. As I said earlier, Religion can ruin faith. Look at Churches today with million dollar A/V systems, health clubs and spas, full time employees in the dozens and tens of millions put in the offering plates without one nickle going to their communities that live in poverty right down the street. This is an abomination of the highest order. Jesus himself cannot possibly like this shinnanigans at all. If the same Church would meet in a field sitting on the ground and put that money back into the community, that Church would be doing Gods work. Look at the abuses of Power by the modern Churches. No wonder so many feel like they do about it all! The Church and religion is not what Jesus Christ is all about. The Church and religion is a by-product of what happens when certain folks start seeing the money train and skimming off the top. Jesus himself got highly pissed off and Physically violent ewhen this happened in the Church with all the money changing hands.

In todays terms with the bullcrap that goes on in organised churches and religious sectors...it is quite logical to be an athiest. Much of it makes perfect sense actually...but it is until you know what the Power of Jesus can do in your life, it is suposed to make perfect sense and believe me, the Church itself is setting up for a destructive set of events and God is not amused.

[rosconey]

a friend of mine is born again, he taught me how to do tile years ago before the rebirth-we did a lot of drugs and booze-i calmed down when my pancrease took a shit, he did when his gram got sick, then he found a wife and got reborn.
he is a good friend and i respect him a lot as a man-once he tried to get me into religion, and i told him i wasnt interested, we had a brief discusion about me and hell  
to me churches are evil and serve no purpose but to enrich those who run them i explained, you see pastors-ministers-priests driving caddies and peole are starving, they build bigger and fancier churches and people live on the street.
its a scam
he never talked religion again with me, but we still are good friends, he still sends his overflow of work my way.

if there is a god  no man who has a good heart and compashion for others will be denided entrance because he didnt go to church

[infiniti driver]

I work with quite a lot of Jewish folks (being in the music industry) which is predominantly ran by the Jews. Many believe..."this is it" and nothing at all happens when you die...is that you are building your treasure on this earth. I am not knowledgeable of the Jewish faith enough to know what the taught belief is actually...and by the same token, once I am gone..all anyone can look back on is what I have been able to accomplish here on this Earth. Heaven on earth is a forgone conclusion. Their will always be murder, theft, cheating, wars, religious wars, poverty and starvation. Their will be filth, grime, poor health, germs and sickness. Their will be greed, pride and devious ways. The kingdom of this earth is the devils. It is written. This does not mean my Jewish friends that amassed vast fortunes in Houses, cars, planes..etc are devil worshippers. Orthadox Jews live by sets of rules written in the old testiment. OF course these are up for interpetation as well. It is definitly not "PC" to talk about Jews and their Money. Neither is it "PC" to talk about Jesus Christ, salvation or other religious views.

Religion IS the problem. Personal acceptance really is meant to remain on the personal level and a "one on one" with your close aquaintances and friends is also of order. Their is a fine line of turning people off when it comes to this topic. I for one am very glad this topic came up in these forums. All I hope is that because people believe one way or another, they will not "pre-judge" that person and feel differently about that indivigual just because of what they believe in the faith assessment and how they choose to live their personal life. Was it a mistake for Bob to openly announce his Christianity? Is it a mistake for me to? Is it a mistake to "assume" that it is mainly Jews that are in charge of the motion picture, television, entertainment, and music business?

All it is...is the truth. All should be free to speak their mind and I feel only a seriously weak minded indivigual would be offended by it. Nathan is completly in his right to proclaim his belief that their is not a God. This is applauldable that he would openly state this. I feel the problem with Religion is one that exsist mainly because people have a mind-set that open discussions lead to a form of conversion. This is not the case at all. Bob is not trying to convert anyone. If he does, he is doing Gods work. If he does not, he is still doing Gods work.

So far this has been an enlightning discussion from all camps. This is perhaps the most civalized discussion I have seen on these subjects and I will restate..Religion IS A PROBLEM!!!!, Personal faith in your creator is another thing entirely. I remember the casual MENTION once of how many Jews their are in show biz to an eruption of hate mail and claiming me to be anti-semitic. This is far from the case. Most of my closest friends are Jewish and I am related as well. This does not keep me in lock-step with anyones belief system other than what I have grown to accept.

Thank you all for keeping this informative and cival.

[ehider]

Wow, there are some GREAT thoughts here on this thread!  I'll add my two cents with the statement:

"Who's belief do you really want me to follow and believe? Is it really your belief?"

I've always been surprised how many people I've had religious discussions with who proclaim a certain religious "belief" yet they have not actually done a "deep dive" into the plethora of information available about their "belief" itself .

For years I've been approached by numerous religious friends telling me about "their belief" and how I should really believe "just like them". Typically I go right to the heart of their statement about the word "belief" itself and what that implies. Virtually everybody came to their belief by acceptance of someone else's ideas first then trying to re-enforce the validity of their belief with supportive documentation/others who believe like them and/or belief support systems. IMHO this is damn near the entire reason that humans have so many religions on this planet in the first place It seems like man has used this unlogical and dangerous method of determining which religon is correct to support and/or stand behind their particular "belief" system!

The core of my point is to ask them who's "belief" do they really think they are touting? Is it really theirs or just a regurgitated idea/philosophical/rule based set of concepts that someone else says is the "truth"? Of course you can guess how defensive and red faced most of my friends get when I go into this line of discourse  

IMHO virtually no one wants to really admit they are just touting someone else's ideas. Most didn't  do a true comparative assessment of all the different ideas/writings and historical evidence regarding which actual religion and/or variant stands out as the absolute most accurate set of concepts. Then and ONLY THEN did they dertimine thier religios "belief" becuase it ABSOLUTELY stood out and MUST have been handed down by a higher deity, due to it's overwhelming evidentiary information, as compared to the other potential religions that "god" obviously didn't mean us humans to follow.  

  I find it soooooo tragic that in today's civilized and educated society so many people are following some sort of religion without truly understanding the make up of how it came about, how their "holy documents" were actually written, the many agendas that may have occurred over the thousands of years or who and why that particular religion motivated masses of people (to do harm as well as good).

When I find someone who has actually done a true unbiased "deep dive" into the many philosophical concepts behind each major religion, along with the historical creation and propagation methods of that particular religion, will I listen to their arguments to why it is so important that I should definately "believe like them"


BTW - I am still waiting.....

[infiniti driver]

I think that it is rather unfortunant that any "deep dive" that one chooses to induldge in is also a deep dive to an abyss of a lot of miss-information..being that it is actually from someone elses belief and not one of their own heart. With organised religion, their is a "lock-step mode" that often comes into play when in reality, it is ones own heart that is seeking for this "higher power" and not that of a conclusion of many hearts..which unfortunantly again, gives religion a black eye and allows thoughts of "rather not believe at all" than to open ones heart to the possibilities within. This said, the ritualistic teachings of certain sects becomes mind-boggling to infinum when all this knowledge is thrown out there to be absorbed and one does not get any benifit and leaves in a state of confusion to enter into another state of disbelief and confusion next round. All I did was to realise that to"get ahold of this thing", I had to release what others were trying to say to me, open my heart and find it somehow, someway on my own with some spiritual guidance from within, seeking answers to certain problems. I simply had to admit that their are areas that I was totally incompetant in everyday life and in those areas, I chose to give it up and land it at Gods feet to do as he pleases. This release of frustration was the beginning to a higher understanding as I in no way had the tools to cope with certain issues that were totally overwelming at the time. Men will lead men astray. This happens daily, hourly and by the second. Human nature dictates we will have struggles beyond our natural grasp to cope with. Comfort in knowing that the higher power can release you from this burden and show you a better way to cope is what it is all about in a nutshell (of course this is my case, others have different ways of dealing with real situations) but to choose to ignore a situation without guidance, wherever it may come from is such a destructive event   and if via some form of definition it is "devine guidance" that does what it does to free the mind of torment and despair and lead to real problem solving, this is empowerment that is too important to be ignored. It is not that I "got lucky once" and prayed for something and it came true..if this were the case, you would have a meaningless lottery where 1/2 the people who enter it will win and Las Vegas would go out of business overnight. It is personal dealings that are on the personal basis that this empowerment lends its fullest hand, time and time again. Things happen for the best if the glass is half full. Things can turn to the worse if it is half empty. Knowing that "it can be alright" and "giving it up" and turning to a higher power of your choice is that empowerment that puts the mind at rest from the despair and allows it to work in positive ways. Knowing you have a set of shoulders to lean on that is in your heart certainly takes a ton of burden off and allows for responsable actions to form and manifest.

So what... if all this is simply in my mind? Guess what...I get to take that with me when I die. I certainly cannot take anything else with me, fact jack!

Well, it works for me..I just don't like seeing Humans in pain dealing with situations that only (for me anyway) a higher power than myself can deal with. If you look at the only program that is proven to work for hard core alcoholics and is recognised by the medical community, law enforcement, courts and others who have been there..it is the 12 step program that is faith based that the indivigual cannot deal with their problem and must resort to a higher power to help them deal with it..and it works, proven to those who can actually go through with it. That is pretty hard core proof that faith based inititives in problem solving works. It may not work for everyone. Some folks have their mind "made-up" and that is that. I often wondered why when you go to a small church with a small congregation...why everyone is usually in the 60's and up? Reason...it took them that long to realise that perhaps their may be something to this thing...better late than never eh?

[Tyson]

ehider,
your quest is futile, as is mine.  One cannot "think" one's way to god, it is impossible.  

The people who talk about faith and direct communion with God have it right, those are the only ways to "get at" god in any real sense.

Faith is of course the opposite of reason and logic, and since faith is the path, don't try to use reason or logic to find the "truth".

All reason and logic can do is undercut the window dressing that makes people THINK their beliefs are logical and reasonable, and show that in fact it is all faith, and blind faith is all there really is to hold on to.  

For many that is enough.  For others it is not.  End of argument.

[jfreeman373]

ehider,

All reason and logic can do is undercut the window dressing that makes people THINK their beliefs are logical and reasonable, and show that in fact it is all faith, and blind faith is all there really is to hold on to...

Faith is not blind my friend..it is the evidence of things yet unseen.  

[nathanm]

"Born to bow to the altar of the Lord
Learn and pray
Watching from above to dominate, manipulate, with his book
Caress, an abstraction
It's only in your mind
The useless denial of reality
Diabolical existence
The root of evil is you
Centuries of inquisition
To burn your own mistakes"
-Martin Van Drunen

I think that it is rather unfortunant that any "deep dive" that one chooses to induldge in is also a deep dive to an abyss of a lot of miss-information..being that it is actually from someone elses belief and not one of their own heart.

Misinformation?  The churches of the world are the greatest sources for that by far!  People don't live in a vacuum and I doubt there would be many people finding god in their "own hearts" had they not been taught or had heard of this set of beliefs beforehand.  It is foolish to ascribe feelings and  thoughts which originate in the human brain to that which lies outside it, i.e. a divine being not of this world.  

The idea of feeling helpless and needing to turn to a non-existent "higher power" is wrong, because the higher power IS you!  You actually were not so helpless at dealing with life's problems because you created a fantasy character (well, okay so it's the same fantasy character as a lot of other peoples, but still...) in your own mind to get you through.  That's not god's work, that's yours.  Congratulations!  You've leaned on your own shoulders.

Getting back to Doug's first statement about Holy Wars and such - I think there's two kinds of religious folks.  One is  the harmless delusional kind who have 'found god' and go on to live peacefully with others.  Their beliefs dwell in themselves and they make no concerted effort to convert anyone to their faith.  I will gladly make fun of these people and argue with them, but ultimately I don't feel they are bad people and pose no threat.  I think everyone has a right to believe whatever they want, even if it is absurd nonsense.

Then there's the hard sell folks who go around foisting their faith on other people, knocking on your door handing out propaganda, trying to ram their own dogmas down other people's throats.  They are constantly upset that people outside of their faith might be happy.  They love nothing more than hanging this incessant guilt and fear over your head at all times.  Everyone else besides them is a damned sinner, doing everything wrong in their life, not doing this, not doing that, not following the bible etc.  You cannot please these people, there's no talking sense to them whatsoever.  These are the types which seem to me to be the most miserable, hateful bastards on the planet.  The most severe of them are willing to kill for their beliefs.  These are the type of religious folk which make me wish there really was such a thing as Hell so these morons could be sent there.

But after all, there's nothing really to be angry about.  Why should I be angry because some righteous person is telling me I don't fit in with his personal fantasty?  Why should I be afraid of commiting an act that will get me sent to someplace that doesn't exist?  I rest easy with the knowledge that no matter what you believed in life you're all gonna end up a rotting corpse in the dirt.  If god was so adamant about us obeying his 10 commandments so that we can get into paradise he ought to make a more concerted effort to ensure that we all believe in him.  To say that he has been a bit elusive over the past few thousand years is an understatement!  If god is the Big Boss I wish some of my past earthly bosses were just like him!

[Marbles]

Nathan, Boy are you wrong!

"no matter what you believed in life you're all gonna end up a rotting corpse in the dirt.  ...

I'm going to be creamated.......

[nathanm]

You will be cremated in the fires of Hell, that much is clear you unsaved heathen! I see that DOM bottle in your avatar!  When you take the Devil into you mouth, you're doomed!  For He is lying there waiting for you!  But you will not die in the flames of course, as this will continue over and over again, for eternity. That'll teach ya!

Actually I've read some interesting things about natural, ecological burial, where they freeze your body and lay you in a shallow grave and plant a tree as your headstone.  Less pollution, none of that formaldehyde crap, no nice woodwork or concrete vaults being dumped into the ground, and your body can help contribute to a beautiful little woods.  Sounds good to me.  That's how I'd like to go once I snuff it.  But hey, I don't wanna sideline the thread onto burial methods.

[bubba966]

I see that wine bottle in your avatar!

That's not a bottle of wine. It's a bottle of Dom...

[Marbles]

I see that wine bottle in your avatar!

That's not a bottle of wine. It's a bottle of Dom...

Quite on topic too as it was a French monk named Perignon who discovered how to make this wine with the bubbles in it about 300 years ago.

BTW, I just got back from church....about the best thing I can say is the house band is pretty good