Trying out vinyl for the second time. Advice?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #40 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 12:43 pm »

Quote from: kgturner on 19 Jun 2009, 03:58 am

I realize now that I'm going to have to purchase a center weight and periphery ring for this table if I decide to stick with it. I have some CDs I really enjoy that I've purchased on LP and it drives me crazy watching and hearing the stylus moving up and down because the record is warped.

So far, I'm more impressed than I expected to be.

It is not a must to use either or both a center and outer clamp, Kevin.

Most of us probably use a center clamp or weight.....but very, very few have an outer clamp. The platter size is not uniform across or thick on most tables (they range from about 11.9 to 13" across in most cases....and can be 3" off the plinth or sometimes flush with the plinth - inset into the plinth)

Most of us tend to listen thru the warp/wow sounds...but it is really nice when it is banished.

Which means a 'universal' size outer ring might fit 20% of the tables out there, at best. So, it makes finding one to fit quite difficult.

I had a custom made one for my VPI HW-19 Mk. III....that does not fit my VPI Classic, JVC QL-Y66F or QL-F6 or Technics Sl-1200 Mk. II. Neither did it fit my old DUAL 701.

It's also not an inexpensive upgrade, but here's an innovative ebay seller selling them for less than is typical for the breed: http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/ldenham123_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZ

Glad you're having fun the 2nd time around

....what do you think is primarily due, to?

John

kgturner · « **Reply #41 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 06:42 pm »

John:

I realize it's not a must but comparing the sound of a flat record to a warped record, it's clear that a ring would help. I figured I would just purchase the VPI periphery ring and center weight since it's compatible with the Scoutmaster. Obviously the price of the ring is a consideration.

I guess there are multiple reasons of trying it out again. First, I never really gave vinyl a fair shot the first time. Second, it seems more and more albums I like are being released and re-released on vinyl so I actually have the chance to buy the "software". Next, I feel I have a system that's capable of being highly resolving to actually give me a true representation of what good vinyl can do. Finally, of all the complaints I've heard lodged against vinyl and why people stop using it, very seldomly is sound quality the issue. It's typically complaints about cleaning, storage, the incessant tweaking of the table, and lack of convenience (ease of track skipping).

Kevin T

twitch54 · « **Reply #42 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 06:52 pm »

Quote from: kgturner on 19 Jun 2009, 06:42 pm

it's clear that a ring would help. I figured I would just purchase the VPI periphery ring and center weight since it's compatible with the Scoutmaster. Obviously the price of the ring is a consideration.

While I agree it's not cheap I completely endorse it for the less than 10% of my record collection that trully benefits from it.

FWIW, if I were in your shoes I would seriously consider saving my pennies for the SDS unit first, hands down the single best upgrade to my VPI rig. Stabilization is spot on, change of speeds (with accuracy) between 45 and 33 is effortless, etc, etc.

kgturner · « **Reply #43 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 08:10 pm »

Twitch:

Trust me, my head is spinning just considering the amount of money yet to be invested. At some point, I'm going to need a rack for all the analog gear, a better phono preamp, the SDS unit, ring & weight.... I don't even wanna think about a cartridge upgrade at this point, but I know that'll be under considertion eventually as well. Then you've got cleaning machines and supplies. I can see how this can frustrate a person to the point of dumping it all.

Kevin T

twitch54 · « **Reply #44 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 08:32 pm »

Understood Kevin, thus my belief that the 'incremental' spending yields the geeatest sonic enjoyment and rewards ! Doing this in step with what ones wallet allows is always best, IMO !

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #45 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 08:42 pm »

Quote from: kgturner on 19 Jun 2009, 06:42 pm

Finally, of all the complaints I've heard lodged against vinyl and why people stop using it, very seldomly is sound quality the issue. It's typically complaints about cleaning, storage, the incessant tweaking of the table, and lack of convenience (ease of track skipping).

Totally. I've caught a ton of flack from folks on that point....hence a topic a couple months back called 'Does anyone actually prefer CD's to vinyl?'

Vinyl is supremely inconvenient...but, is still the hi-res format available to audiophools today.

John

Wayner · « **Reply #46 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 08:55 pm »

I have 3 warped records out of my entire collection of 2K+. The worst one plays as if there isn't a warp at all. You simply can't hear it. The tone arm gently moves up and down, but it tracks great. I suppose the warp is nice and gradual. The other 2 are tough. But I'd hate to f*ck them up.

There is another way to make a record's warp go away and that would be a very small, but stiff circular band that would go around the perimeter of the record. I see it in my head but haven't figured out how to make it yet. This thing would be a permenent thing that you would snap on and then leave on, I think. Rolled out of some channel or split tubing or something.....

Wayner

kgturner · « **Reply #47 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 09:02 pm »

I have a few warped records. They all appear to track fine. Like you said, the arm just moves up and down. Perhaps my tracking force is set too high, but I set it per the instructions in my Scoutmaster manual. It recommended to go .1g above the highest cartridge recommendation. The Benz MC20E2L recommends 2 to 2.5g and my tracking force is set at 2.689 according to my digital scale.

As far as your circular band device, I wouldn't even know where to begin. I would think some smallish u-channel made out of some stiff yet flexible material.

Kevin T

Browntrout · « **Reply #48 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 09:59 pm »

Hello kg could I suggest you seek out some pristine unwarped examples of those records as they will sound better than the warped ones with the weight and ring on and cost less in the first place.

orthobiz · « **Reply #49 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 11:00 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 19 Jun 2009, 12:43 pm

I had a custom made one for my VPI HW-19 Mk. III....that does not fit my VPI Classic, JVC QL-Y66F or QL-F6 or Technics Sl-1200 Mk. II. Neither did it fit my old DUAL 701.

John

I have it all now! While I haven't set the TT up yet, I did put the VPI periphery ring on my Linn and it does NOT fit!

Paul

orthobiz · « **Reply #50 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 11:09 pm »

But, getting back to the title of the thread, make sure you check out garage sales tomorrow. At age 53, the ideal collection for me is from someone around 60 who was into rock music in the 60's 70's heyday. I have had two occasions this summer where no records were visible in the garage but the reply was "oh, we have a box of records in the basement."

Last week, I met a colleague's aunt for the first time at her garage sale. Her husband died 11 yrs ago (he'd be 59 today) and she had three boxes of records in the basement. I got Led Zep II and III; RS Satanic Majesties (holographic), Let It Bleed, Beggar's Banquet; Sgt Pepper; the first 7 Moody Blues; the four Hendrix albums; three Quicksilver; four Simon & Garfunkel; NGDB Will the Circle Be Unbroken; five Byrds albums; Sweet Baby James, Cat Stevens Teaser;FZ We're Only In It for the Money; a few Airplane and Hot Tuna Burgers; Dylan Highway 61, Bringing It All Home, Nashville Skyline, Basement Tapes, etc. Probably about 60 records in all...for 100 bucks! So far it's all highly listenable and I am having a ball. My kids will take my doubles (when I decide which is the better copy, does that make me a bad dad?) and the rest fill holes in my collection.

And if you go to stevehoffman.tv, you'll see that lots of collectors value the original mixes. Sure, I buy reissued discks (Van Morrison Moondance is a good one), but for 1 or 2 dollars out of someone's basement, often only 50 cents, you will definitely decrease your cost outlay and allow you to get that record cleaning machine.

Hey, I'm in a town of 10,000 and had lots of luck this summer. Keep looking, the mother lode is out there for you, too!

Paul

kgturner · « **Reply #51 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 11:33 pm »

Quote from: Browntrout on 19 Jun 2009, 09:59 pm

Hello kg could I suggest you seek out some pristine unwarped examples of those records as they will sound better than the warped ones with the weight and ring on and cost less in the first place.

That's easier said than done as I live in Mobile, Alabama and there aren't any record stores around here that I've found. Most of the warped records I have are of albums that are 10-20+ years old and out of print. When/if they reissue them on vinyl, I will buy them new. Til then I'll have to do what I can to ameliorate the warped copy.

While you're reading this....what's the deal with static build-up and how do I stop it? When I put the record on, they don't appear static-y, but when I take them off, I can feel a significant static charge.

Also, what is the ground post from the tonearm to the phono preamp ground post supposed to do? I don't have any hum in my system when the ground isn't connected nor when it is connected.

Kevin T

mountaineagle · « **Reply #52 on:** 20 Jun 2009, 12:50 am »

Kevin,

Enjoying the thread and all the questions you ask that I will no doubt have to ask but dont have to as you are asking them.

Greg

Browntrout · « **Reply #53 on:** 20 Jun 2009, 10:19 am »

Have you tried google searching the album names and numbers? If you do this there may well be someone selling an original in good condition for not much money (useually less than a new record). I have done this before.
Static build up is best dealt with by washing your records with a good quality solution that helps inhibit static (Use a solution that requires rinsing off with deionized water). The next best thing is to zap it with a Zerostat gun before playing and after playing and then last and least effective is to give it a brush once or twice round with a quality carbon fibre brush such as the clearaudio one (I do all three of these).
The ground from the turntable to the phonostage can vary in how it is implimented some use the shield of one of the channels on the phonocable as in Rega. The best approach is to use a very high quality wire with nice clean spades and for it to be not any longer than it needs to be. A good phonocable should have the earth wire supplied or integrated in the design.

Wayner · « **Reply #54 on:** 20 Jun 2009, 07:26 pm »

Kevin,

Make a short list of what you want and I will keep an eye out for you. There is lots of used LPs in great shape right here in my town. I also have lots of doubles.

Wayner

kgturner · « **Reply #55 on:** 21 Jun 2009, 02:14 am »

Wayner:

I'll send you a PM later this evening. Thanks for the assistance.

Kevin T

JackD201 · « **Reply #56 on:** 22 Jun 2009, 07:15 am »

Quote from: kgturner on 19 Jun 2009, 11:33 pm

While you're reading this....what's the deal with static build-up and how do I stop it? When I put the record on, they don't appear static-y, but when I take them off, I can feel a significant static charge.

Also, what is the ground post from the tonearm to the phono preamp ground post supposed to do? I don't have any hum in my system when the ground isn't connected nor when it is connected.

Kevin T

Hi Kevin,

Older plastic inner sleeves have a tendency to create static buildup. You can easily buy paper inner sleeves online. This and a Milty static gun keep my collection fairly static free.

On the second point, if you have no hum, don't sweat it. Just keep it connected for the looks.

On the periphery ring, it really does come in handy but can be a pain to use or even set aside. Personally I'd go for it. If you opt for the heavy clamp and ditch the delrin clamp, don't forget to remove the rubber washer that goes on the spindle. Put it back on when you use the delrin clamp with NO periphery ring. Like the chairguy said though, non of this is mandatory. I don't even use a clamp much less a spindle on my rig now. On the HRX of old, I didn't use them religiously either.

Mainly, I used the ring to keep the suspensions of my cartridges from wearing out too quickly and not so much for sonics. It's a rather expensive bunch of carts so the price of the ring in that context was easily justifiable. Then again I had only very view warped records and the really precious ones I've already been able to find better condition copies of. So my need for the ring has really just disappeared.

I'm glad you're back to vinyl. It means another potential vinyl shark in the water but hey....we aren't selfish.

Enjoy!!!!!

Wayner · « **Reply #57 on:** 22 Jun 2009, 01:21 pm »

Dragging a stylus across the record grooves creates static. It's like rubbing your socks on the carpet and then touching a door knob....ZAP!

I can't go along with the paper sleeve idea either. In my experiences, paper is responsible for much of the surface damage on the grooves, like paper cuts, that edge is brutal. I use Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab sleeves for all of my LPs. The plastic sleeve prevents any groove damage and the inner paper sleeve drains static. You can buy 200 for $35 dollars. That's about .18 cents each. One source is www.Musicdirect.com.

Before playing an album, I always use a Discwasher brush slightly damped with a water/alcohol mixure (3to1 ratio) with a spray mister. This does 2 things. It collects all the dusts and specs of debree and then it neutralizes static charges.

To be honest, I haven't needed to use the Zerostat for a long time. This tool can also be easily abused. You do not need to zap everytime you play. Usually new records are full of static. That is when the Zerostat comes in handy. but a zap for the first couple of playings should be all you'll ever need.

Wayner

JackD201 · « **Reply #58 on:** 22 Jun 2009, 01:39 pm »

My bad, I neglected to specify Nagaoka paper. Not the ordinary stuff most folks use although I've yet to see paper scratch polyvinylchloride, I'll take Wayner's word for it.

Wayner · « **Reply #59 on:** 22 Jun 2009, 04:30 pm »

The sleeves that cause the most damage are the ones that have the thru hole so you can read the label while the LP is in the sleeve. As you take a record out, the sleeve puchers and makes the paper like a cutting edge. While this wouldn't leave a "scratch", it will scuff up the very top of the grooves.

Wayner