Trying out vinyl for the second time. Advice?

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royphil345

Re: Trying out vinyl for the second time. Advice?
« Reply #20 on: 15 Jun 2009, 02:46 am »
His invitation wasn't out of kindness...

..and you are telling me what I meant when I was the one that typed it  :scratch:
....okaaaay

He was saying "this is the way it is and that's that" and the invitation was 100% about PROVING SOMETHING he's really in no position to prove. The post doesn't have to be "disected" to figure that out. It's the WHOLE point. Maybe if your reading comprehension was a little better... The difference between HIS particular analog and vinyl rigs in HIS system means about squat as far as which medium is better in absolute terms. Sorry... it is arrogant to think otherwise.

Wow dude, you're so off base its not funny....and no, I don't need to get into some sparring match with the likes of you to justify what I typed (an meant), TYVM. John knows me well enough to understand the offer is genuine and non-threatening.

Your post was simply an attempt to back up your opinion by offering to have someone come over and prove to them redbook CD sounds better than vinyl... using a method that wouldn't prove anything. Whether or not a kind invitation to your home was part of that or not.... I think it's pretty clear what the whole point of the proposed visit was. Right slick? This will prove it... but I'm not not out to prove anything...  Then what was the point? No wonder you have to try and solicit house guests on the internet. Slippery...

If that's not what you meant.... fine.... But, it's sure as heck what you posted and I'm no mind reader. You were also trying to back something up with an empty argument and present it like it was inarguable fact.

I've heard enough of the same recordings at 16/44.1 and 24/96 on the same equipment to know any argument supporting redbook CD is likely as full of holes as 16/44.1 digital anyway.... excuse the pun... lol

royphil345

Re: Trying out vinyl for the second time. Advice?
« Reply #21 on: 15 Jun 2009, 02:55 am »
Per kgturner's request I'm going to attempt to get this thread back on the topic!

A tweak which I use and love is one I hear wayner constantly promoting. I picked it up from him.

Use a blank disc to set anti-skating, or make one from acrylic. For me this method is waaaay cool, and is so easy to implement. Much better & easier than trying to adjust a/s by trying to listen to a track on a test record. It's also extremely accurate, and works exceptionally well with a/s mechanisms that utilize a spring-loaded dial. I start by dropping the needle in the area of the disc that would correspond to the middle of a typical LP side, then adjust for zero drift in or out. Then I drop needle in the area corresponding to the end of a side, and also at the area of the beginning of a side, and make fine adjustments until I get little or no drift in these latter 2 areas.

Using this method I believe many audiophools will discover their anti-skating adjustment does not correspond to the same setting for tracking force at all! Springs age and the tension changes, thus the need for this tweak.  :)

 I believe many audiophools WOULD discover their anti-skating adjustment does not correspond to the same setting for tracking force using this method.... because the forces involved as the stylus tip rests on flat, spinning vinyl have little to do with the forces involved when the stylus rests in a groove, making contact with the sides of the groove and the tip is making contact with nothing. Then, there is also the very significant force of the grooves constantly pulling the stylus towards the center (end) of the record that must be compensated for and isn't present on flat vinyl.

There's some very good info about vinyl on the web...

and then there's voodoo like this that becomes widely accepted after a few people post it and enough people buy into it.

You don't need a test record either. I've never heard an increase in tracking distortion in one channel or the other because the anti-skate was just a smidge off. Heck... that could be caused by a slightly asymmetrical stylus or a pressing issue on the test record... Are all of the tests on test records at the null points where the stylus is perfectly aligned?  But, you will hear channel imbalance and timing problems between a note from one side of the soundstage and it's reverberation on the other, etc... lack of focus... if it's just a smidge off. I've always found a few different LPs of music you know well to be the best "test records".
« Last Edit: 15 Jun 2009, 04:23 am by royphil345 »

rajacat

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Re: Trying out vinyl for the second time. Advice?
« Reply #22 on: 15 Jun 2009, 04:13 am »
His invitation wasn't out of kindness...

..and you are telling me what I meant when I was the one that typed it  :scratch:
....okaaaay

He was saying "this is the way it is and that's that" and the invitation was 100% about PROVING SOMETHING he's really in no position to prove. The post doesn't have to be "disected" to figure that out. It's the WHOLE point. Maybe if your reading comprehension was a little better... The difference between HIS particular analog and vinyl rigs in HIS system means about squat as far as which medium is better in absolute terms. Sorry... it is arrogant to think otherwise.

Wow dude, you're so off base its not funny....and no, I don't need to get into some sparring match with the likes of you to justify what I typed (an meant), TYVM. John knows me well enough to understand the offer is genuine and non-threatening.

Your post was simply an attempt to back up your opinion by offering to have someone come over and prove to them redbook CD sounds better than vinyl... using a method that wouldn't prove anything. Whether or not a kind invitation to your home was part of that or not.... I think it's pretty clear what the whole point of the proposed visit was. Right slick? This will prove it... but I'm not not out to prove anything...  Then what was the point? No wonder you have to try and solicit house guests on the internet. Slippery...

If that's not what you meant.... fine.... But, it's sure as heck what you posted and I'm no mind reader. You were also trying to back something up with an empty argument and present it like it was inarguable fact.

I've heard enough of the same recordings at 16/44.1 and 24/96 on the same equipment to know any argument supporting redbook CD is likely as full of holes as 16/44.1 digital anyway.... excuse the pun... lol


royphil,


You're doing the same thing but speaking in more absolute terms. You seem to be implying that under no circumstances redbook  CD could sound better than vinyl. Man, you really do have a closed mind to the degree that you couldn't recognize that if a certain CD did or did not sound better than the vinyl equivalent because you're the victim of your expectations.   Well....keep drinking the Kool Aide and living in the past. Eventually there will be no argument and digital will be the king but there will still be people like you that just love to fiddle with their turntables.

There are a number of vinyl heads here that normally spin vinyl but on occasion recognize that a particular CD actually sounds better than its' vinyl cousin. I respect their opinions much more than those of the vinyl cultists.

BTW I do have a vinyl rig which I do enjoy.

-Roy

lcrim

Re: Trying out vinyl for the second time. Advice?
« Reply #23 on: 15 Jun 2009, 04:28 am »
Gentlemen:
Enough- The tone of this thread has gotten to a point where if it continues in this personal direction, I will lock it.  Its not worth getting that upset over.  Keep it friendly.

royphil345

Re: Trying out vinyl for the second time. Advice?
« Reply #24 on: 15 Jun 2009, 04:31 am »
Quote
Eventually there will be no argument and digital will be the king but there will still be people like you that just love to fiddle with their turntables.

There are a number of vinyl heads here that normally spin vinyl but on occasion recognize that a particular CD actually sounds better than its' vinyl cousin. I respect their opinions much more than those of the vinyl cultists.

BTW I do have a vinyl rig which I do enjoy.

-Roy

Actually, I completely agree digital will be king one day... when they finally stop messing around with this primitive 16/44.1... lol.

Also, I have no doubt a CD version of a recording can sound better than a vinyl version. It would have to be a pretty sad piece of vinyl though... lol.

I'm totally kidding!!! having fun and have been through most of this... I said I had no problem even believing CD can sound better than vinyl 100% of the time on a particular system. You're pulling these accusations out of your butt. The point is, it doesn't mean much. I'm not the one here defending a format. I'm not the one who started vinyl bashing in a vinyl forum!... with a post that had NOTHING to do with the original!  I'm not one of those who decided to join in gang up on anyone... But, if you guys want to go... let's go... I'll take you all on no problem.... lol

lcrim

Re: Trying out vinyl for the second time. Advice?
« Reply #25 on: 15 Jun 2009, 05:18 am »
This topic has been locked and a post put in the IGWB.

lcrim

Re: Trying out vinyl for the second time. Advice?
« Reply #26 on: 15 Jun 2009, 03:39 pm »
This topic is now unlocked.  I'm hopeful that we can all "just get along."

JackD201

Re: Trying out vinyl for the second time. Advice?
« Reply #27 on: 15 Jun 2009, 04:17 pm »
Hi Kevin,

I lived with an Aries 2 and an HRX for quite a while and so I'm quite comfortable setting up and trouble shooting the newer VPI tables as well as the JMW family of arms. If you have any problems. Just send me a PM. They are fairly easy tables to get going.

Jack

orthobiz

Re: Trying out vinyl for the second time. Advice?
« Reply #28 on: 15 Jun 2009, 04:25 pm »
This topic is now unlocked.  I'm hopeful that we can all "just get along."

Hope it's not anything I said. I love this site, though...we do get along even with ribbing one another. This would be the most tame thread at audioasylum!

Paul

PS I still like vinyl better.

TheChairGuy

Re: Trying out vinyl for the second time. Advice?
« Reply #29 on: 15 Jun 2009, 04:32 pm »
TYVM. John knows me well enough to understand the offer is genuine and non-threatening.

Sorry, been away for afew days...still away in fact and back tonite (just gave myself my first computer free day for quite some time the past couple days...ahhhhhh my eyes and brain are slightly less swollen :))

Scott and I 'know' each other well from this forum.....and tho my posts may sound otherwise, I'm actually quite open to re-alignment of beliefs.  So, I found the offer  from Scott inviting and friendly more than anything else.

My belief is that SET and single driver popularity is based largely on the deficiencies of resolution and resultant 'naturalness' in 16/44.1. So, you add back wonderful distortion (SET) and prune the most offensive top end / treble using single driver. CD/Redbook 44,100 samples per second leaves more holes in the sonic landscape as the frequency rises.

Solid state and vinyl sound simply fine...as (mostly) do DVD (24/96) as the inherent resolution is such that solid state uncovers less flaws.

No format is perfect.  But, my honest feelings are that CD's flaws are that of too serious omission from the start...and that no effort to improve the playback (save for SET, tubes - which I own and use myself, and single driver) can help.  Vinyl is clearly flawed as well....but the flaws are forgiveable even on even a very modest, solid state system.

Anyhow, sorry for the digress to the OP  :oops: ...... John

Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Trying out vinyl for the second time. Advice?
« Reply #30 on: 15 Jun 2009, 06:30 pm »
Semi Off Topic:

I'd love to be there when/if John goes to Scott's house. Count me "in" on that one for sure.  aa
I'll bring the single malt.  :wink:

Bob

kgturner

Re: Trying out vinyl for the second time. Advice?
« Reply #31 on: 16 Jun 2009, 03:52 pm »
After a hair-pulling, heart attack inducing day with Fedex yesterday, I have the Scoutmaster in my possession waiting to be setup when I get off work. Hopefully my cartridge and and phono preamp will arrive this afternoon so I can try to get it all dialed in and maybe spin a record or two before I pass out this evening.

Kevin T

EDIT: I went home for lunch today and went about setting up the table. After carefully unpacking everything, I installed the plinth, motor, and platter. Now all I need to do it install the tonearm when I get home and tweak the table for levelness. Unfortunately, my cartridge isn't going to arrive today and a today delivery of my phono pre doesn't look to good either. C'est la vie.
« Last Edit: 16 Jun 2009, 06:16 pm by kgturner »

kgturner

Re: Trying out vinyl for the second time. Advice?
« Reply #32 on: 17 Jun 2009, 06:19 pm »
I got my cartridge in today and installed it onto the tonearm. I still have to align the cart to the VPI jig, set the anti-skate, set the VTA, and set the tracking force. I do have a question about adjusting the tonearm.

What is the damping fluid for and where does it go?

I presume I pour a small amount of the damping fluid into the well of the male pivot point, but I'm not sure and the instructions don't say from what I've read.

Kevin T


JackD201

Re: Trying out vinyl for the second time. Advice?
« Reply #33 on: 17 Jun 2009, 06:37 pm »

I presume I pour a small amount of the damping fluid into the well of the male pivot point, but I'm not sure and the instructions don't say from what I've read.

Kevin T

You're absolutely right Kevin. A few drops into the well to start with. The entire upper assembly should move smoothly and not feel jittery.

Sonically the damping fluid aids with channel separation by minimizing aftershocks of a bump or warp and bringing the azimuth back to center as quickly and smoothly as possible. Needless to say, a side effect is it helps in tracking too. HW doesn't give much explanation for it but for an over the top techie treatise on the effect of damping check out the website of Townshend Audio.

I take it you took the anti-skate option for your scoutmaster. My JMWs didn't have them.

kgturner

Re: Trying out vinyl for the second time. Advice?
« Reply #34 on: 17 Jun 2009, 06:47 pm »
Jack:

Thanks for the info. I guess the anti-skate came with my tonearm (JMW9 Signature). Of course, I'm not really clear how to set that either. I have a lot of fidgeting to do this evening when I get home.

Kevin T

KimKman

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Re: Trying out vinyl for the second time. Advice?
« Reply #35 on: 17 Jun 2009, 07:26 pm »
You all use the 'damping fluid' on all VPI tonearm setups. I recall the manual for my VPI Classic JWM 105i said something like for some cartridges use the damping fluid. Anyway right now I have a  ClearAudio MAESTRO wood without any fluid. Sounds wonderful to me now but maybe should try a couple drops of the damping fluid.

kgturner

Re: Trying out vinyl for the second time. Advice?
« Reply #36 on: 18 Jun 2009, 12:19 am »
So I just spent the last hour and half tweaking my cartridge and tonearm. I guess it's about as good as it's gonna get for a newbie. That damn counterweight is a pain in the @$$!!!I could never get the set screw loose enough or tight enough for easy front/back side to side motion, but I think I've got it all set now. The alignment jig appeared square, the azimuth appears to be level, the tracking force is set at the high end of Benz's recommendation, and the damping fluid has been added. I've still got some tweaking to do with the anti-skate though. Unfortunately, I haven't received my phono preamp yet so all I can do is stare at the table and wonder how much more work I'm going to have to do once everything is hooked up and I actually get to play a record.

One more question though:

Should I leave the stylus guard/cover on the cartridge when not in use to keep the dust off? The Scoutmaster doesn't have a cover and I saw no reason to buy one just yet since I haven't decided vinyl is for me yet.

Kevin T

TheChairGuy

Re: Trying out vinyl for the second time. Advice?
« Reply #37 on: 18 Jun 2009, 01:02 am »
You all use the 'damping fluid' on all VPI tonearm setups. I recall the manual for my VPI Classic JWM 105i said something like for some cartridges use the damping fluid. Anyway right now I have a  ClearAudio MAESTRO wood without any fluid. Sounds wonderful to me now but maybe should try a couple drops of the damping fluid.

VPI specifically cites Grado's and Clearaudios as needing damping fluid.

I would think the Clearaudios a bit more internally damped than the Grados...so perhaps a wee bit of restraint in adding the silicone goo is advised :thumb:

You don't want to overdamp matters...overdamped is just dull and lifeless sound (like I hear too many moving coils...not all, of course)

John

twitch54

Re: Trying out vinyl for the second time. Advice?
« Reply #38 on: 18 Jun 2009, 01:11 am »
Unfortunately, I haven't received my phono preamp yet so all I can do is stare at the table and wonder how much more work I'm going to have to do once everything is hooked up and I actually get to play a record.

Kevin, now is perfect time to figure out your 'cleaning routine' so to have the few Lp's you have in perfect condition for when your phono-pre arrives and your ready to go !

kgturner

Re: Trying out vinyl for the second time. Advice?
« Reply #39 on: 19 Jun 2009, 03:58 am »
I received my phono preamp today and have spun a few albums so far. The sound is slowly starting to open up so I'll reserve judgment and criticisms for now. One thing that has struck me so far is how dynamic vinyl can be with a clean, flat LP. When I half-ass tried vinyl almost five years ago, it was nothing like this. Clean, crisp, fast....etc.

I realize now that I'm going to have to purchase a center weight and periphery ring for this table if I decide to stick with it. I have some CDs I really enjoy that I've purchased on LP and it drives me crazy watching and hearing the stylus moving up and down because the record is warped.

So far, I'm more impressed than I expected to be.

Kevin T