[Jon L]

Also, recently I followed an advice, posted in the beginning of this thread, to check out HDtracks. I burned their free test tracks on a blank. And, considering that they are only in 44K after I burned them using MediaMonkey, they sound VERY good.

I've been buying HDTracks and any other available hi-res downloads like an addict, and it's deliciious stuff.  Hope you get to play them in their native resolution at some point instead of the 44K burned copy. 

[rajacat]

Can you name the 8k of digital gear you were using for comparison? Was it just a CD player or the latest computer based digital gear?
 BTW, I've always preferred lemon-aide to kool-aide.

-Roy 

see my prior post, a few messages up.   

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=66985.msg622265#msg622265

one thing to ad - in my system, i have separate isolation transformers which i use, one each for my dac and transport; this makes it sound better in my system - higher resolution & lower noise-floor.  i didn't have the isolation transformers in my a-b comparisons...

doug s.

Maybe battery power is the way to go. That would eliminate the need for the complications and noise of AC power supplies and reduce the noise floor to below audibility. All turntables have some audible background noise.

-Roy

p.s.  Could it be that clean power is more important than resolution? Like the study I linked above which came to the conclusion that the vast majority of people can't distinguish between high and low resolution digital.

[low.pfile]

Adding to my initial post....

As I aggressively add to my small vinyl collection I am finding what others have already said: vinyl doesn't always sound better than the CD. So in some cases the CD does sound better than the vinyl of the same album.

Therefore in general terms, it might be fair to say that CD does better vinyl in consistency of medium.  I started a thread on the number of copies of a vinyl LP everyone goes through to find a good version, as I experienced a few dud copies. Furthermore, I am also learning through reading that sometimes the mix may differ for the individual formats. I ould really appreciate having more background on an album recording and mastering used. or some reason I don't go out and buy another CD if I find its a bad recording, knowing the the media is more consistent by the nature of the technology.

As an example: I was excited to listen to a newly acquired copy of The Hurting, by Tears for Fears, original US release, on vinyl. Rated Near Mint, and I agree that it had no noticeable damage and very little play - by visual inspection perfect. I washed/rinsed the vinyl twice and played it. Fairly recently I have been listening to the Redbook rip of this Album on my digital server DAC and was impressed by the music and the recording. That spurred me to find a vinyl copy to hear uncompromised sonics of vinyl.

Well, I  was a little disappointed. Maybe a bad pressing or just not a good transfer. It was not as dynamic and had a flatter soundstage than the digital version in my system. I toggled back and forth between the two - with slight volume adjustment. The digital was superior. My digital front end is decent and on par with my vinyl (recently tallied up my cost and they are within 5% of each other). Following that album I listening to a new/sealed Portishead-Portishead vinyl album and that sounded amazing. Though I didn't do a back-to-back with the digital, I would say that the vinyl was superior to the digital.

My point is. Vinyl may have the capability to have the superior sonics, but acquiring a copy of the vinyl recording may be a challenge and costly. I wouldn't want to do this for all of my favorites. Then of course there is setting up the vinyl rig to extract those superior sonics-a different topic. Sometimes CD sonics win when not in a vacuum.  Maybe a thread tracking peoples findings of albums on CDs which sound better than the vinyl see if there is a general agreement from various listeners...... sure, Ed easy to do there are only 30 million albums out there.

Cheers,
Ed

p.s. I am going to buy another copy of The Hurting, just because I am optimistic.  : ))

[launche]

Maybe a thread tracking peoples findings of albums on CDs which sound better than the vinyl see if there is a general agreement from various listeners...... sure, Ed easy to do there are only 30 million albums out there.

Cheers,
Ed

That would be a good idea and begin to add some substance to the matter.

[*Scotty*]

rajacat , I don't consider the apparent consensus expressed in the thread you linked to a valid conclusion or a representative sampling of audiophiles who have heard higher resolution media under optimal conditions. I can jump as high as Michael Jordan in a room with an 8foot ceiling,which is another way of saying that if you set the bar too low by listening to 24/96 media in a system with inadequate resolution your test is flawed and your conclusions about the media will be wrong. We constantly pussy foot around the elephant in the room here, which is the fact that while we may all be playing the same game some are playing in the sandlot,some in the minors and a few in the majors. Everyone here does not have equal levels of resolution in their system,which leads directly to differing interpretations of what is heard when something is auditioned. Obviously while I can point out the problem I can see no solution for it. We have to be very careful about what is asserted to be a fact as witnessed by someone within this context. You can say this is what I heard in my system but you can't go on to generalize on the basis of this specific instance.
Scotty

[andyr]

My digital front end is decent and on par with my vinyl (recently tallied up my cost and they are within 5% of each other).

Cheers,
Ed

I would've thought a digital front end that was the same cost as your vinyl front-end (TT + arm + cartridge + phonostage) would be, relatively speaking, a much more "top-end" player than what the vinyl rig is. 

I personally would think, say, a $5K CDP (incl. DAC) would equate to a $15K vinyl front-end in terms of SQ?

Regards,

Andy

[low.pfile]

My digital front end is decent and on par with my vinyl (recently tallied up my cost and they are within 5% of each other).
Cheers,
Ed

I would've thought a digital front end that was the same cost as your vinyl front-end (TT + arm + cartridge + phonostage) would be, relatively speaking, a much more "top-end" player than what the vinyl rig is. 

I personally would think, say, a $5K CDP (incl. DAC) would equate to a $15K vinyl front-end in terms of SQ?

Regards,

Andy

AndyR,
Interesting to hear your opinion. I was always curious about the performance relative to cost of dig v analog systems.

I am interpreting what you wrote above as: A digital front end offers more value per dollar than an analog front end.

From my own systems and a few retail auditions and group meetups I agree that the vinyl rigs that sound great tend to be quite expensive ($7k and more). BTW, I am nowhere near a $15k vinyl rig! nor desire to be. I am only at $2600 digital vs $2500 analog. (DIGITAL= DAC + HDD + cables,  ANALOG= TT + cart+ pre + accessories + manual cleaner)

cheers, ed

[andyr]

AndyR,

I am interpreting what you wrote above as: A digital front end offers more value per dollar than an analog front end.

cheers, ed

Hi Ed,

Yes, I guess that's a good interpretation.  However, as a dyed-in-the-wool vinylie, I suspect that the sound from a $20K vinyl rig would be more enjoyable than its CDP "equivalent" (whether that's $5k or $10K). 

Regards,

Andy

[*Scotty*]

For myself,I wouldn't take that bet. There is no shortage of mediocre $5000 digital replay systems. With 15 grand to play with I could probably come up with a vinyl system that would only loose to digital if the recording on the vinyl was not good enough.
Scotty

[low.pfile]

AndyR,

I am interpreting what you wrote above as: A digital front end offers more value per dollar than an analog front end.

cheers, ed

Hi Ed,

Yes, I guess that's a good interpretation.  However, as a dyed-in-the-wool vinylie, I suspect that the sound from a $20K vinyl rig would be more enjoyable than its CDP "equivalent" (whether thant's $5k or $10K). 

Regards,

Andy

I would tend to agree with you from a purely sonic perspective. I can't wait to hear my first $20k vinyl rig. "Money is no object" is not an area I play in though.

-ed

[andyr]

I can't wait to hear my first $20k vinyl rig. "Money is no object" is not an area I play in though.

-ed

I don't consider a $20K vinyl rig (seeing as it has to include TT (and PS, in the case of my LP12), arm, cart and phono-stage) is "money-is- no-object".  $50K and above is!    How much is the Continuum - and that's without cart or phono-stage!!?? 

Regards,

Andy

[*Scotty*]

My vote for a cost no object setup would the the Walker Audio Proscenium Gold, somewhere near $85K.Then I have to come up with custom phonostage and some type of cartridge. I would be very interested the SoundSmith strain gauge cartridge setup.
Scotty

[marknoir]

My vote for a cost no object setup would the the Walker Audio Proscenium Gold, somewhere near $85K.Then I have to come up with custom phonostage and some type of cartridge. I would be very interested the SoundSmith strain gauge cartridge setup.
Scotty

If I had that kind of dow to throw around, I'd invite real musicians to play in my house That would be a good playback system!

[Mariusz]

Personally, I would like to own Teres Model 265 with Verus motor option, Tri-Planar tone arm ...... or I would keep my Moarch UP4 and Strain Gauge SG-400 package. I am sucker for wood qualities and liquidity so Teres with direct drive system and Schroder DPS/ SG cart system would really make me happy. On digital side - AMR-CD77 is my cup of tea but Isabella preamp with build-in Isabellina DAC and Consonance Droplet CDP 5.0 as transport, works just fine and stopped my cravings for more as far as digital reproduction is concern.



Mariusz

[doug s.]

I would've thought a digital front end that was the same cost as your vinyl front-end (TT + arm + cartridge + phonostage) would be, relatively speaking, a much more "top-end" player than what the vinyl rig is. 

I personally would think, say, a $5K CDP (incl. DAC) would equate to a $15K vinyl front-end in terms of SQ?

Regards,

Andy

i'd have to say it is the other way around.  in fact, i would wager that, if the software is equivalent, a $5k analog front end would sound at least as good or better than any 16bit/44.1khz digital front end extant, at any price...

ymmv,

doug s.

[TONEPUB]

Nope, not even close...

How many "at any price" cd players have you heard?

It's really pretty eye opening.

[DTB300]

With 15 grand to play with I could probably come up with a vinyl system that would only loose to digital if the recording on the vinyl was not good enough.

<Standing up applauding>     This is a very good point.  This could also go in vinyl direction with a poorly recorded or transferred copy to digital.  It is all dependent on the path taken to produce what we finally play/hear.  To compare source A to source B without knowing how they came about IMO is not valid as you can always find exceptions in either direction.

[Bob in St. Louis]

This seems like a good time to bring up the ($$$$$) laser turntable.

[doug s.]

Nope, not even close...

How many "at any price" cd players have you heard?

It's really pretty eye opening.

only a couple, i admit.  and yes, it was eye-opening, for sure.  amazing sound wasn't why, tho...   

ymmv,

doug s.

[Browntrout]

This is quite good. Can I ask if at a certain performance level we start listening to the medium, where its' character becomes clearly audible and variable then we exceed that level of performance and the medium becomes almost irrelevant because we hear the failings in the recording equipment as more obvious than the failings in the playback system, which sounds better cd or vinyl?
   I have this with vinyl but I've never heard this with cd. I won't claim to have heard highend cd players for the last few years (gave up looking) so is this possible? Is it possible for cd to become transparent like vinyl? I've always been conscious of the cd when listening.
   I realise I'm not being very clear but I hope you get what I mean?