[doug s.]

now, here's a decent deal on tube amps that will go to-to-toe w/hi-power s/s amps:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1244670840&/VTL-MB450-Signature-Monoblocks



doug s.

[honesthoff]

Yes, I prefer SS for amplification and D to A conversion.  I prefer valves for pre-amp.  I also prefer warmth to cold, light to dark, and rolling to dragging... but I am new-school (born this epoch).

[Watson]

So the question is, does this new design, class A using JFET's, overcome some of the problems mentioned by Frank.

JFETs are the solid state devices that have the closest physical operating characteristics to tubes. Along with Nelson Pass, Erno Borbely (who used to be in charge of design for Dynaco and worked with David Hafler) is a huge JFET fan for that reason. I've liked what JFET gear I've heard. I could live with it.

[turkey]

Harry Pearson has poisoned the audiophile community that he claims to have engendered and infected it with the distilled pedagogy and petty assertiveness so pervasive and germane as to defy isolation. It is in every supposition and every evaluation any of us think, much less compose.

[/quote]

He's not the only one. Stereopile and some of the British rags had and have just as many tin gods.

[turkey]

Now amplification devices...the only company that I'm aware of that has had a semiconductor specifically manufactured to it's design for the sole purpose of amplififying music is NAIM and that was in the last couple of years for their 555 range of products.

I'd like to have been a fly on the wall when they approached the semiconductor manufacturer and asked for those "musical" transistors. In other words, you've been marketed.

  A valve on the other hand can be and is quite often hand made and is in some instances designed and built for a specific type of circuit or even a specific amplifier in mind. It can be specialised right down to metals, coatings, grid sizes, currents and voltages.

Being made by hand is not always a good thing. Get back to me when you get on the internet with a computer with a handmade CPU.

Semiconductors can be made even more precisely than tubes, and you can vary the specs all over the place depending on your needs.

  If we can use ultra high purity square section wire to wind transformers and mount them so vibrations are bled away, if we can hand make silver in oil capacitors the size of coke cans for tiny signals to move freely through, if we can use high wattage tantalum resistors toleranced to one or two decimal places then where is the weak link in the system?

The output transformers for one thing.

   All things being equal, if all the other components are of equal quality a valve can always be made to a higher sonic ability than a transistor.

Nonsense. All other things are rarely equal because some engineers are competent and some are hacks. A good engineer's SS amp is going to sound better than Homer Simpson's tube amp, no matter whether boutique components are used or not.

If we have all listened to high end audio then really we all know that up to a point solid state works but that point is fixed by the sonic abilities of the transistor itself and until someone starts making hugely overengineered semiconductors in small quantities for use in high end stereo then that will, in my opinion, always be the limiting factor in solid states ability.

Maybe you hear different things than others do? Because we don't all know...

You also have not been paying attention to what companies like NS and AD are doing with ICs specifically designed for high-performance audio.

[turkey]

now, here's a decent deal on tube amps that will go to-to-toe w/hi-power s/s amps:

I am firmly convinced that VTL and Manley have not been the same since David Manley stepped out of the picture.

[turkey]

So the question is, does this new design, class A using JFET's, overcome some of the problems mentioned by Frank.

JFETs are the solid state devices that have the closest physical operating characteristics to tubes. Along with Nelson Pass, Erno Borbely (who used to be in charge of design for Dynaco and worked with David Hafler) is a huge JFET fan for that reason. I've liked what JFET gear I've heard. I could live with it.

Borbely is certainly one of the top designers. I should have mentioned his kits in my list of good value high performance SS gear.

[Watson]

Borbely is certainly one of the top designers. I should have mentioned his kits in my list of good value high performance SS gear.

Yes, definitely. Plus his new DAC looks incredible. He wisely outsourced the digital stage (SRC4392, direct downsampling, 4x PCM1704, switchable non-OS, USB with optocoupler... my kind of gear) and took care of the power supplies and I/V himself... all JFET.

[bunky]

now, here's a decent deal on tube amps that will go to-to-toe w/hi-power s/s amps:

I am firmly convinced that VTL and Manley have not been the same since David Manley stepped out of the picture.

My VTL MB-100 Monoblocks were designed by David Manley and i really like them.I have not heard any VTL or Manley tube amplifiers made after David Manleys departure so i cant make any comparison.Why In your view do you firmly believe that VTL and Manley are not the same since David Manley stepped out of the picture ?  thanks....WCW III

[TheChairGuy]

Double Post - lo siento

John

[TheChairGuy]

Yes, definitely. Plus his new DAC looks incredible. He wisely outsourced the digital stage (SRC4392, direct downsampling, 4x PCM1704, switchable non-OS, USB with optocoupler... my kind of gear) and took care of the power supplies and I/V himself... all JFET.

I had a Hafler 915 (JFET) preamp, the series made by Rockford-Fosgate after they bought the company, and tho it sounded atypically solid state, it neither sounded like tubes either.  It was very 'soft' sounding, which I assume is one quality of tubes, but ultimately failed to satisfy.

Maybe it needed a beefier power supply, maybe tight voltage regulation was lacking, maybe, maybe, maybe...

I realize that was only one stab at it, but it failed for me.  It was a very clean, attractive, slimline design tho. Andy Szabo of Acoustat designed it, so it had good pedigree



John

[timjthomas]

Since my change from Jolida to Van Alstine -- yes I definitely prefer solid state!!!

[Browntrout]

Turkey here are the words from the Naim website.........

'''To avoid the compromises implied by the use of multiple sets of output devices, either in totem-pole or parallel configurations, the search was on for a very special output transistor. A bipolar transistor with a specification combination of very high current, power rating and bandwidth was needed, far in excess of anything available to Naim before. A suitable output device was eventually developed after six years' collaboration with a semiconductor manufacturer. '''

So now you know that I have not been 'marketed' and much more importantly you have learned something about stereo.

[macrojack]

Browntrout -

I'm not disputing the veracity of Naim's claims when I say this - but it sure reads like ad copy to me.

[TheChairGuy]

So now you know that I have not been 'marketed' and much more importantly you have learned something about stereo.

What's wrong with being 'marketed'? Information about a product was offered in some way that it was understood by a prospective purchaser and it was purchased. 

The determination of value to the purchaser is always very subjective and made up by the individual later on. 

Despite being an experienced marketer, I've been lured by claims and purchased gear (tube, solid state, DAC's, whatever ).  Some worked out well, most didn't...but I don't blame or indict anyone for purchasing them but myself. Unless someone reached into your pocket and whipped out your credit card AND signed your name to the receipt, you made the decision to purchase. 

Anyhow, this is truly off-topic...but it always strikes me as odd when marketing is portrayed as nefarious.  It's merely spirited or some factual written or oral material that compels you to buy.  That's all it is.

John

[Niteshade]

Hi Jake,

This is a classic "Ford vs Chevy" deal. It does get ran through the mill allot. Most of the time it's not this civil. I would like to see the solid state folks get a place to nest sometime. It would be fun comparing notes between the circles.

I **did** learn a great deal and do not regret the topic being brought up at all!

I don't know what you're going through with this and hope everything's ok- but I have a feeling it isn't.

Look at all the hits! WOW!!! The definition of popular or what? 

Take care.

Blair

[JakeJ]

Hi Jake,

This is a classic "Ford vs Chevy" deal. It does get ran through the mill allot. Most of the time it's not this civil. I would like to see the solid state folks get a place to nest sometime. It would be fun comparing notes between the circles.

You're right, it has been fairly civil but a few have not really responded to the OP's question, they just make an argumentative statement towards someone's post without real contribution.

I **did** learn a great deal and do not regret the topic being brought up at all!

I'm all ears.  What did you learn?

I don't know what you're going through with this and hope everything's OK- but I have a feeling it isn't.

Just spending too much time watching this thread to make sure it doesn't get out of hand. Springtime and lots to do around the house!

Look at all the hits! WOW!!! The definition of popular or what? 

Well...so is boxing, pro wrestling, demolition derbys, and war.  I suppose it's just human nature.

Take care.

Blair

I'm workin' on it, thanks Blair.  It's been sunny and around the 70° here.  I wish it was for the rest of the country too.

Cheers,
Jake

PS - In the future I'll have my first cup of coffee before checking in on AC. 

[JackD201]

"Are there really folks that prefer solid state sonically?"

Two people qualify as "folks" and there were four "SS all the way" posts on the first page alone. The facilitator's "beating a dead horse" emoticons now seem very very apt.

I'm zippin my mouth now Jake 

[macrojack]

Subject matter aside, I think this topic appeared with a birth defect. It's very wording implies disbelief that a sizable portion of our membership could possibly prefer solid state. That, in and of itself, is divisive. Yes, it is the tube circle but I should think that means a place to go if you want to read about or discuss tube topics. I get that concept and applaud it as a subset of the overall site.

What escapes me is the collegial posture that draws lines creating an outsider subset which seems to say, " you are welcome if you agree with us and only if you agree with us".

As DougS pointed out this topic is basically a call for SS aficionados to step forward and justify their choice.
Then TCG is ready to step up and bludgeon them with unassailable evidence that they have made the wrong one.

[Niteshade]

I'll get back to this later....

But for now, a better subject would have been something like: "The virtues of tube & solid state amplification."

The person who started this thread can modify their subject. That would put allot of people at ease and less on the defensive.