[Niteshade]

I've got a good question for you:

Do you want your sound system to make your music sound better or to sound exactly as it's recorded? I'm not talking about just the amplifier! This is an all-encompassing question that deals with everything from the source (CD/Record, etc...) to the speakers.

My personal taste: I like transparency. If the recording stinks, so be it! I want to hear it for better or for worse. If it's GOOD, I want to hear every little nuance within it. I want my entire setup to be able to extract every minute detail without modifying it. This is important to me.

[macrojack]

To paraphrase John Lennon, All I am saying is give it a rest".

Sound is an intangible. It has taste, texture, tone, temperature, tailoring, size, weight, color, complexity, cash value and character galore, if we say so. But, in fact, it has only the ability to move air. Everything else I, or any of you, has listed is of our manufacture. It is not present on the generating end ....... only on the receiving end.
Since we are all different, we all receive differently. Given that, it is fair to say that we all experience sound differently and all any of us can discuss is what we perceive. We do not have access to the receptions or perceptions of others and cannot, therefore, make valid judgments or comments about those experiences.

My wife looks at something that I would call red and tells me it is pink. I wonder what the hell she's looking at. It can't be what I'm seeing. On the other hand, there are only two of us looking at this thing and we have a total of two different opinions. What if we brought in a third party to deliver a verdict on what color we are looking at? Would that create a de facto statement as to who has seen the color correctly? I guess that depends first on their assessment. The judge might deliver an opinion that we are both crazy to be talking about orange in that way. Or this person might agree with one of us. Still the experience of the minority participant doesn't change even if a majority is established in the other camp.

The topic here seems to be seeking a consensus where no such thing is possible. Only arguments.

We all hear differently. I think we do have a consensus on that point. We all like what we like. Some of us are more insistent about precise sound and others are just happy to be able to understand the lyrics. Some will expend hundreds of hours trying to optimize the position of their cabling. Others will get up in the morning and unmute the preamp to let NPR flow in and never give the system another thought all day.

I spent $500 last summer getting an old tuner refurbed and aligned. Lots of others don't even have a tuner. This juxtaposition just demonstrates that there are diametrically opposed choices that are both perfectly valid. And this is a very tangible matter.

Perhaps a poll of which amplification we prefer would be more useful than a discussion. There seems to be too much diss in discussion.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blair,

The above post is not directed at you. I didn't see what you wrote until I posted my comment.

[Alonski]

I have found the most musicality (so far) with a superb analog front end, a VAC tubed preamp, and a very high current 200wpc Electron Kinetics SS amp driving my Thiels. The huge current supply allows the amp to feel very fast and open and its ability to resolve the lower registers seems to make the entire presentation come alive and sound "right" to me. Anyone know of a tubed amp that can do this really well? I'd be open to trying it out.

Also, there seems to be controversy around the issue of a tubed amp needing twice the rated wattage to equal a SS amp (e.g. 100wpc tubed = 200wpc SS). Is this true? Chime in.

Alón

[hmen]

I prefer the sound of tubes. It's a completely subjective descision.

[EDS_]

IMO, if one adds and subtracts all the pluses and minuses of ss v. tubes; tube win at given price points.

[Tyson]

All recordings have flaws.  For me, with SS equipment, the flaws are reproduced in an irritating manner (over time), while tubes reproduce the flaws in a way that is not irritating to me.

[Freo-1]

I went back and changed the title of the topic....as well as all 8 or 9 of my replies in it.

As mentioned a few pages ago, I took all of 10 seconds to think of the original title...and I didn't have an editor to confer with.  English was a fine subject for me in school....it was that elective course in Diplomacy that I got a C+ in

I happen to partly agree with someone's post a few pages ago....tubes may be not a whole lot more than euphonic coloration.  But, for whatever reason, placement in the sonic chain seems to improve sonics.  Where they are placed, how many are placed in the chain is open to varied opinions.  I've found minimal tends towards better for me....the final elan of euphonic coloration works best in the last stage....as tube (preferably) monoblock amps.

I have little (fully updated) Bell 6V6 tube integrated monoblocks (circa 1960) that sound stunning to me - their 10 watts are fine to drive my 87db speakers to dizzying volume in my size room - but I find all tube all the time to be too soft for vinyl listening (and a bit noisy, as Frank van Alstine mentioned a few pages ago). 

They do sound really compelling with CD....seriously so 

John

I share a similar opinion regarding my Fisher KX-200.  It just plays music wonderfully, and really makes one question many of these esoteric, limited production, mega dollar amps of both tubes and solid state.  The iron in the KX-200 is 10-100KHz +- 1db.  That is spectacular performance in any realm.

The only solid state amp that to me comes close are the Nelson Pass single ended units. (But I still prefer the tubes, espcially with the vifa tweeter!)

[Niteshade]

I have heard people mention that they believe a tube watt is more than a solid state watt. There's really no truth to that. Some tube amplifiers will sound louder at high volumes due to entering a compression stage before complete breakup (over modulation) occurs.  In communications, compression is used to produce more volume per watt. (That's why TV commercials sound louder than the program material.)

Also, there seems to be controversy around the issue of a tubed amp needing twice the rated wattage to equal a SS amp (e.g. 100wpc tubed = 200wpc SS). Is this true? Chime in.

Alón

[Tyson]

Plus, doubling power only gets you an extra 3db anyway, so if you listen at loud volumes consistently, an efficient speaker is more important than a high powered amp.

[bunky]

Tubes have a certain magic that just pulls me into the music.I dont like warm overly euphonic circuits or tubes that have that effect.I like fast clean circuits and i roll tubes not to try and color the sound but to try and achieve a balance to the sound across the musical spectrum.Hi i am Bunky and i am a Tube-O Phile.....

[timind]

Why not make this a poll? Wonder what the consensus would be in the Tube-o-phile Circle? Hmmmm, I know where my money would be.

[Ericus Rex]

  if there was only one component i could have w/tubes in it, it would absolutely be the preamp.   

I totally agree with you, Doug!

[JakeJ]

Why not make this a poll? Wonder what the consensus would be in the Tube-o-phile Circle? Hmmmm, I know where my money would be.

Good idea!  Please make it a separate thread as this one may disintegrate again.  

Cheers,
Jake

[markC]

I'm sorry Bunky, but I don't believe that we have a twelve step program for you.

[Niteshade]

Nobody answered my question! 

At least directly. It wasn't meant to be rhetorical.  It has nothing to do with amplification specifically. Do you like coloration or not? How did you achieve your specific type of coloration or get rid of it? Did the coloration from something actually make your system sound neutral (AKA baking soda & vinegar)???

I've got a good question for you:

Do you want your sound system to make your music sound better or to sound exactly as it's recorded? I'm not talking about just the amplifier! This is an all-encompassing question that deals with everything from the source (CD/Record, etc...) to the speakers.

My personal taste: I like transparency. If the recording stinks, so be it! I want to hear it for better or for worse. If it's GOOD, I want to hear every little nuance within it. I want my entire setup to be able to extract every minute detail without modifying it. This is important to me.

[Ericus Rex]

Blair,

I want to like what comes out of my speakers.  If what I like is exactly like the original recording, then fine.  If it's totally different but I still like it, then fine.  If that means I like a colored sound, so be it.  I put salt and pepper on my eggs, thus changing their natural flavor, why can't I change the 'natural' sound of the recording to my own liking?

It seems to me we all seek our preferred colorations to some extent when we personally match components.

[zybar]

Nobody answered my question! 

At least directly. It wasn't meant to be rhetorical.  It has nothing to do with amplification specifically. Do you like coloration or not? How did you achieve your specific type of coloration or get rid of it? Did the coloration from something actually make your system sound neutral (AKA baking soda & vinegar)???

I've got a good question for you:

Do you want your sound system to make your music sound better or to sound exactly as it's recorded? I'm not talking about just the amplifier! This is an all-encompassing question that deals with everything from the source (CD/Record, etc...) to the speakers.

My personal taste: I like transparency. If the recording stinks, so be it! I want to hear it for better or for worse. If it's GOOD, I want to hear every little nuance within it. I want my entire setup to be able to extract every minute detail without modifying it. This is important to me.

What's transparency?  What's coloration?  How do we know what the original recording is supposed to sound like?

Aren't they going to be different for every single person?

Since there is no standard definitions in audio, it becomes impossible to pin these things down.

If it was only like video where there are standards to follow or attempt to achieve...

Just enjoy the music and do what makes you happy!

George

[doug s.]

blair, this is a trick question.     i have tried to discuss this wery point, before, also when talking about tubes, hmmm... 

here's the issue - the recording itself "may not" sound like the music that was being played, when the recording was made.  (in fact, it most likely does not sound like the music that was being recorded.)  so, for me, the question is not whether you want your system to sound exactly like the recording, but whether you want it to sound exactly like what was being recorded.  big difference, imo.

so, if tube gear (or any specific gear, for that matter), can get you closer to what was being recorded, as opposed to getting closer to the recording itself, does that make tube gear coloured?  i, too, walue transparency and detail.  i wanna hear every last gnat fart.  but, i wanna hear it like the gnat really farts in real life, not an exact duplicate of the recording of the gnat's fart!   

doug s.

Nobody answered my question! 

At least directly. It wasn't meant to be rhetorical.  It has nothing to do with amplification specifically. Do you like coloration or not? How did you achieve your specific type of coloration or get rid of it? Did the coloration from something actually make your system sound neutral (AKA baking soda & vinegar)???

I've got a good question for you:

Do you want your sound system to make your music sound better or to sound exactly as it's recorded? I'm not talking about just the amplifier! This is an all-encompassing question that deals with everything from the source (CD/Record, etc...) to the speakers.

My personal taste: I like transparency. If the recording stinks, so be it! I want to hear it for better or for worse. If it's GOOD, I want to hear every little nuance within it. I want my entire setup to be able to extract every minute detail without modifying it. This is important to me.

[toobluvr]

Blair,

I want to like what comes out of my speakers.  If what I like is exactly like the original recording, then fine.  If it's totally different but I still like it, then fine.  If that means I like a colored sound, so be it.  I put salt and pepper on my eggs, thus changing their natural flavor, why can't I change the 'natural' sound of the recording to my own liking?

It seems to me we all seek our preferred colorations to some extent when we personally match components.

BINGO!!  I couldn't agree more!   

Maybe I'm being presumptuous but I think we all want to maximize the "listening satisfaction quotient".  When the discussion is framed this way, is there anyone that can say that they disagree?  Would anyone argue that they wanna have less fun when listening?

The arguement then becomes one of what is the best way, and what is the best sound to achieve maximum listening enjoyment.? Under this heading falls discussions like tubes or SS?  digital or vinyl?  SET or push/pull?  etc.  You will never have universal agreement here, for whatever reasons.  So it is a fruitless arguement.

The neutrality and accuracy arguement is tiring and overplayed.  Would anyone prefer accuracy, whatever that is, if it doesn't sound as good as something else?  That would be silly.  Why would they choose to lower their "listening satisfaction quotient".

When all is said and done it really is quite simple.  Some may not wanna admit it, but when you cut through all the bullshit it comes down to what gives the most pleasure and enjoyment to the listener.   Whether that is neutal, accurate, euphonic, colored,  or whatever......who cares?!
 

 The objective is to have as much fun as possible, and not worry about academic aguements.
 

[JakeJ]

blair, this is a trick question.     i have tried to discuss this wery point, before, also when talking about tubes, hmmm... 

here's the issue - the recording itself "may not" sound like the music that was being played, when the recording was made.  (in fact, it most likely does not sound like the music that was being recorded.)  so, for me, the question is not whether you want your system to sound exactly like the recording, but whether you want it to sound exactly like what was being recorded.  big difference, imo.

so, if tube gear (or any specific gear, for that matter), can get you closer to what was being recorded, as opposed to getting closer to the recording itself, does that make tube gear coloured?  i, too, walue transparency and detail.  i wanna hear every last gnat fart.  but, i wanna hear it like the gnat really farts in real life, not an exact duplicate of the recording of the gnat's fart!   

doug s.

Nobody answered my question! 

At least directly. It wasn't meant to be rhetorical.  It has nothing to do with amplification specifically. Do you like coloration or not? How did you achieve your specific type of coloration or get rid of it? Did the coloration from something actually make your system sound neutral (AKA baking soda & vinegar)???

I've got a good question for you:

Do you want your sound system to make your music sound better or to sound exactly as it's recorded? I'm not talking about just the amplifier! This is an all-encompassing question that deals with everything from the source (CD/Record, etc...) to the speakers.

My personal taste: I like transparency. If the recording stinks, so be it! I want to hear it for better or for worse. If it's GOOD, I want to hear every little nuance within it. I want my entire setup to be able to extract every minute detail without modifying it. This is important to me.

Excellent post, Doug!  I concur completely and will use whatever means to that end whether it's tubes or solid-state.  My experience has shown me that both are required to do just that.

Let me re-qualify by restating: IN MY EXPERIENCE!!  What this means is I haven't heard every source, preamp, amp, and/or speakers ever made (let's not even mention wire, connectors, tweaks, power conditioners, etc.) and never will but at least I can be open minded enough accept any combination to get the desired results, toe-tapping music!.

Thanks to some members I am enjoying my system more and more lately.
Listening more to FM - thanks to doug s. 
Listening more to vinyl - thanks to TCG 
Listening more to system synergies - thanks to Mr. Pig  (good ears)

Off for another 12 day of drudgery, thanks to all for keeping the discussion polite. 

Jake
toobluvr - also an excellent post made while typing mine.