[TheChairGuy]

Ummmm...I think you are taking the thread too literally and should chill.

This is the Tube-o-phile Circle and as such people will have this type of fun.

George

TOTALLY, George.  I'm also a sales and marketing guy....so 'titillating' the crowd for a few more views is not uncommon

I really was wondering if 'folks actually prefer solid state or does it come down to convenience and or cost'....but there is limited room to write all that as a thread topic. 

I've already admitted to preferring tubes only as amps....the rest is solid state for me.  But, now that the topic has run 9 pages these posts have been lost in the wash

John (the OP)

[doug s.]

...On balance though, most tube amps sound better than most solid state amps...

I think you have that arse backwards!!! But I must admit tubes sure do look nice in a dark room...that's about it though as far as I'm concerned.

on balance, i think you are both wrong.     seriously, what i think would be an accurate statement, and what this thread is really about, is that it seems to me that more audiophiles prefer tube amplification/preamplification, (at least somewhere in their rig), than solid state.  but, that doesn't mean most tube amps/preamps sound better than most solid state amps/preamps.  (or wice-wersa, if most audiophile folks preferred s/s.)  cuz who knows who's right?  once, more people than not, thought the earth was flat, and that the sun revolved around it.   

doug s.

[macrojack]

The only conclusion I have been able to draw from this banter is that tastes vary and always have. The debate remains, as it always will, inconclusive.
I prefer solid state because I do not obsess about whether or not I am missing something sonically and for my purposes solid state makes more sense. My system is a family system so it gets used for FM much of the day, serves as TV sound when ever that is in use and provides the soundtrack for a two channel home theater. All of these represent a waste of tubes to me so I have solid state electronics.

And when I play music with my Jeff Rowland amp and preamp through my actively bi amped horn system I get a kind of performance that cannot be duplicated by tubes through any number of small cones.

We like what we like and that's presumably what we use. Why must we try to convince everyone else to do as we do? Tubes are a lifestyle decision, like getting married, buying a house, getting a dog, etc. They come with some worry, some baggage, a feeding schedule. To some listeners they are indispensable and to others they are just too much damn trouble. Nobody's right and nobody's wrong.

That makes all of us nobodys. So we should be humble and keep to our own individual pleasures quietly observing the behaviors of others and trying to learn from them because we may not actually have it all figured out yet.

[TheChairGuy]

macrojack,

I suffer not from hubris (tho I admit to bowing to greed and avarice at times in my life ) - I don't think myself better than anyone or above the fray in life or in context to any subject. I'm also amazingly free of 'convention'...I tinker, I listen, I learn and do, and reach much of my conclusions in life (in all phases of life) independent of others.

I have found placement of tubes in the sonic chain, somewhere, results in audibly more satisfying musical experience and worth the hassle.  The rest of us that spend time here seem to feel the same...so Jake J. volunteered to Facilitate a circle for us (hear yea, hear yea )

But, this is the Tube-o-phile Circle...if something offends you here, simply tune out.  It's a place where tube lovers congregate and we gloat about tubes.  If things are said here that troubles you, tune out and volunteer to run a Solid State Circle.

You really have a hard time doing tuning out...I've seen you puffer yourself up in other topics over time (in other circles) - a veritable Robin Hood of Audio Circle. No one needs saving here, tho

Seriously man, get a grip.....and a sense of humor

John (the OP)

We like what we like and that's presumably what we use. Why must we try to convince everyone else to do as we do? Tubes are a lifestyle decision, like getting married, buying a house, getting a dog, etc. They come with some worry, some baggage, a feeding schedule. To some listeners they are indispensable and to others they are just too much damn trouble. Nobody's right and nobody's wrong.

That makes all of us nobodys. So we should be humble and keep to our own individual pleasures quietly observing the behaviors of others and trying to learn from them because we may not actually have it all figured out yet.

[richidoo]

That makes all of us nobodys. So we should be humble and keep to our own individual pleasures quietly observing the behaviors of others and trying to learn from them because we may not actually have it all figured out yet.

Inspiring stuff macro 

[Niteshade]

People who like something tend to want others to try it out. That could be Limburger cheese, catchup on eggs, etc... You know how it goes. Some get animate about it!

Audio people tend to be passionate. 

I post so infrequently...   It couldn't mean that much to me. 

[woodsyi]

Seriously man, get a grip.....and a sense of humor

TCG,

MacroJack does have a sense of humor.  You just have to understand his Malthusian outlook.  Don't you see the Carl Sandburg and Samuel Beckett in his writing?    Afterall, we all are waiting for our Audio Gadot! 

Macrojack, I like your posts although I wish you would occasionally try to be a little cheerful. 

[macrojack]

Tcg - Nothing in my post, nor in my head while I was writing it, presumed anything about you. Your counteroffensive, indignant response indicates that you did not read it carefully enough. There is still time, however, to go back and provide yourself with a more accurate assessment of my comments. Please do so.

I thought I said plainly that I do prefer solid state sonically and that I do so for practical reasons. This was in response to the title of this thread. Tubes are great but not great enough for me to want to adopt them.

If you want to leave solid state out of the tube circle, that is your choice and I think that is a justifiable wish. Why didn't you do that?

Hubris was perhaps a guilty confession on your part because I see no hint of accusation anywhere in the previous 9 pages.

Woodsyi - I am cheerful enough and I certainly have a sense of humor but it is more ironic than morose. In many of these debates I stoop to conquer and as you seem to have noticed I am clumsy about doing so. It ain't my long suit.

I detest the good ole boy, back-slappin, giddy, presumptuous  camaraderie that dominates much of the chatter here. On the other hand I find the tone and temper of many of our contributors to be refreshing and exhilarating relative to the petty crap Audiogon generates.

Harry Pearson has poisoned the audiophile community that he claims to have engendered and infected it with the distilled pedagogy and petty assertiveness so pervasive and germane as to defy isolation. It is in every supposition and every evaluation any of us think, much less compose.

I'm merely recommending a little less position and a lot more humility if growth is truly our objective.   

Humor me.

[TheChairGuy]

I read your post fine and dandy....hubris and humble are opposites...one means excessively proud (and was punishable by death in Ancient Greece) and the other is the relative lack thereof.  Read your post again and you will see:

So we should be humble and keep to our own individual pleasures quietly observing the behaviors of others and trying to learn from them because we may not actually have it all figured out yet.

You have inferred that I (and others here) do not observe the behaviors of others nor learn from them. What you are really saying is that many tube-lovers don't respect your choice(s) in solid state.  I think you've carried the point of this thread over the line of reasonable.

Meanwhile, the gist of what I am saying, tubes sound great - better than solid state, on balance.

I may remember a Facilitator already asking you to not post in their circle within the past couple years because of your badgering and adversarial questioning....

This is the tube circle.  Get on with your life, boy

Ciao, John

[doug s.]

...What you are really saying is that many tube-lovers don't respect your choice(s) in solid state... 

so?  what's wrong w/saying that?  it's true, imo.  some of us tube lovers don't respect other's choices in solid state.  like me, for example.  no self-respecting audiophile would ever use a solid state preamp, imo.    

...I think you've carried the point of this thread over the line of reasonable...

i respectfully disagree - i think jack has been extremely reasonable.  of course, that's imo, and ymmv.

...Meanwhile, the gist of what I am saying, tubes sound great - better than solid state, on balance.

the gist of what i am saying is, that while i agree w/this premise, and i think more audiophiles would agree w/you than not, others don't, or don't think the small improvements are worth the hassle; neither is right, and yust cuz you're in the majority, that, in and of itself, doesn't always mean you are right, either.  different strokes for different folks.

another example of this "different strokes for different folks" thing - i have ~$300 inwested in a modded dac, and ~$300 inwested in a used cdp used as transport.  i don't think it's worth spending a penny more to get better sound out of a digital rig.  does this inwalidate those who spend thousands on their digital systems?  i don't think so.  does this mean i have a tin ear?  no, i don't think so, either,  i think i hear quite well, and all it means is i have not heard any mega-dollar digital rigs that offer any worthwhile improvements over what i now use.  what's worthwhile to me may be different that what is worthwhile to someone else.

and, one last example - i own ~40 tunas, presently.  is this sanity?  no, sonic differences are almost as small as w/digital rigs.  but, i listen to a lot of fm, and i like tunas!     i am presently listening to the marantz 20 tuna, hidden inside the marantz 18 receiver, thru its tape outs, into my preamp.  sound?     but, i hope, this weekend, to hook up the pilot fa-680 that yust showed up this week...   

...I may remember a Facilitator already asking you to not post in their circle within the past couple years because of your badgering and adversarial questioning....

i don't see any relevance in this statement.  i was banned from this forum twice.  does that mean everything i say is adwersarial, or suspect?   

...This is the tube circle.  Get on with your life, boy

seems to me this thread was started for those who prefer s/s to tell all us tube-heads why.  show some respect to others, boy. 

doug s.

[TheChairGuy]

Doug,

You were banned twice for engaging in taboo subjects at AudioCircle (politics).  It is far different that being asked to not to post in a specific circle due to adversarial engagement.  I would characterize you as opinionated, not adversarial.

Yes, and 40 tuners makes you borderline sane   At the very least, not fiscally sensible

I have less invested in CD playback than you do....see my topic in Vinyl Circle of similar ilk to this one exploring the topic of the ultimate sonic virtues of CD.

John

[Browntrout]

 

I'm going to sum up my thoughts on solid state verses vacuum tube amplification.
     There are three aspects of an amplifier that affect its' sound and performance. The circuit design, the quality of components and the device used for amplification.

The design can be similar in either solid state or valve in principle. The only difference I'm aware of between the two is that a valve amplifier can be built with less components in total than a solid state amplifier.

The quality of components could, for the sake of argument, be the same in either solid state or tube. I would like to stick my neck out though and suggest that component quality tends to be higher in good valve amplifiers compared to good solid state ones.

Now amplification devices...the only company that I'm aware of that has had a semiconductor specifically manufactured to it's design for the sole purpose of amplififying music is NAIM and that was in the last couple of years for their 555 range of products.
  A valve on the other hand can be and is quite often hand made and is in some instances designed and built for a specific type of circuit or even a specific amplifier in mind. It can be specialised right down to metals, coatings, grid sizes, currents and voltages.
  If we can use ultra high purity square section wire to wind transformers and mount them so vibrations are bled away, if we can hand make silver in oil capacitors the size of coke cans for tiny signals to move freely through, if we can use high wattage tantalum resistors toleranced to one or two decimal places then where is the weak link in the system?
   All things being equal, if all the other components are of equal quality a valve can always be made to a higher sonic ability than a transistor. If we have all listened to high end audio then really we all know that up to a point solid state works but that point is fixed by the sonic abilities of the transistor itself and until someone starts making hugely overengineered semiconductors in small quantities for use in high end stereo then that will, in my opinion, always be the limiting factor in solid states ability.
 

[Derockster]

I must say I love tube amplification.As a matter of fact all the amplifiers I've owned has been tube amps with the exception of one that being a Pass Aleph 3.That being said I've heard some really good sounding solid state amps as well.I visited a friend's house on Thursday night to have a listen to his rebuilt TNT Acoustat amp(work done by Roy Esposito) driving a pair of Spendor SP100s,man that was fantastic.It was driven by a Sonic Frontiers Sfl1 hybrid preamp.Imo there are great amps on both sides of the fence,it all comes down to personal taste.Regards derockster

[geowak]

I have owned a few tube pieces, and many more SS pieces. I liked the SS pieces. Why??

It my experience, too much noise was introduced into the signal. It came from the transformer, or the tube, or the AC, some somewhere else. I might have had  poorly designed equipment, but after many, many months of trying to track down the source of the noise, and contacting the company I go fed up and switched back to SS. Guess what....no more noise.

That is just MY OWN experience.

[turkey]

If you are going make that claim, can provide examples of what you feel is superior and for less money?

Greg Ball's SKA amps, Hugh Dean's AKSA amps, Frank Van Alstine's Insight amps, some of Parasound's and NAD's products... How about Emotiva? I heard one of their amps recently and it was superb and a very good value. The first two are DIY, although I think there are people who will build one for you.

If you (or a good friend) has some DIY skills, one can build one of Nelson's DIY projects at a fraction of the cost of the commercial products.  While I don't believe these will necessarily equal the commercial products, I know that they can sound darn good!! 

This is the area where I really admire NP. He's just a great guy for all the help he gives to the DIY community. I've talked with him on other forums and he's just a class act all the way around.

I have heard a DIY Aleph and a DIY Greg Ball SKA amp, and to be honest I thought the SKA sounded better and it sure ran cooler.

I have also heard some chip amps that were pretty fantastic, and also didn't cost much money.

Lastly, I am huge fan of Class A amps.  Some of the best I have owned or listened to are pure Class A:  Atma-Sphere, Pass, and Kora to just name a few.

I can understand that.

I've just heard plenty of Class AB amps that sounded as good and were IMO more sensible.

More recently, I've found that amps are not where it's at. The differences between amps are faint compared to the differences between speakers, and with really good speakers (like the GedLee or Linkwitz designs) fancy amps are not really cost-effective.

[macrojack]

More recently, I've found that amps are not where it's at. The differences between amps are faint compared to the differences between speakers, and with really good speakers (like the GedLee or Linkwitz designs) fancy amps are not really cost-effective.


Boy will I ever second that comment. When I switched to horns It made more difference than I have ever experienced from any change of electronics. I suspect that a well designed horn is more important than the driver that powers it. By comparison, wires and tweaks and amplifiers provide minor incremental improvements.

[Niteshade]

I believe it is a misconception that the speakers are most important. I am not disagreeing that speakers are of the utmost importance, but I strongly believe the rest of the audio system is equally important. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being best, why use a 7 amplifier, 8 DAC...etc. You get the idea.  It is all for naught if the speakers are poor, but if the speakers are great, make everything else just as good.

Horns! 

[doug s.]

yes - horns - i have fallen onto the horn wagon, myself - i have spendy box speakers presently sitting idle.  but, i like ~5wpc of tube power to drive them.       solid state does fine below ~250hz in my triamped system...


doug s.

[markaudio]

Hi Guys,
The solid V tube debate................... will go on forever. Since I make drivers so I'm always testing them on a variety of amps. I've found some solid work really well on one certain driver-box combinations while tubes are better on others. Here's a sort of general guide. Some are "givens" but still worth reminding:

1 - Small audio drivers (full range or 2 way - 3" and less) usually do better on tubes. Mostly, they don't need much power (even low efficiency units <85dB), tend to have tighter range. Tone and dynamics from small drivers are often tight so may benefit from being warmed and smoothed by tubes.

2 - Medium to large (4"+ to 8") low efficient audio drivers (80 to 85dB) need power so usually solid is the way to go. These full range units, woofs and tweets mostly need to be driven. It's best to work with the laws of physics, the larger cone emitters have more mass so there's little choice but to get them moving by using  an amp with significant output. 

3 - Medium to large,  middle efficiency drivers (85+ to 89dB), includes some full range and in-box multi-way, is more of a test and see what works. I've heard some systems work really well on tubes while other do best on solid.

4 - Medium, large and Big high efficiency drivers (+ 90dB) tend to benefit the most from tubes. Their relative low mass emitting component is often better suited to tubes.  I've heard some nice combos on solid so it's not a 100% given to tube.

I'm the fist to agree with anyone who say's there's tonnes more to consider and there are going to be some exceptions to my suggestions. But what's interesting is the growing number of emails I get asking me for some basic direction. The one thing I've learned is this:

There's 6+ billion people on the planet with 6+ billion "unique" hearing and sound perception patterns. Note the word "unique". One listeners idea of great sound is different from the next.

This is where the funs begins. It's a great time to experiment. Good quality audio gear are getting cheaper, used bargains are out there on Ebay, sell and swop sites. I recently bought a mint condition Sansui 907-DR for a song of a price. It's a terrific solid state amp. Equally I bought one of Brian Cherry's Joplin 2a3 DHT units for modest money 2 years back, wonderful on Alpair 6 drivers - absolute heaven. Add in new developments in class D and chip amps, its a great time of increasing choice.

It's a great time to mix and match - have fun!

Cheers,

Mark.
 

[JCC]

Some of the reality of the situation is that all other things being equal, a small signal tube has higher overload capability when used in an amp or preamp front end to sum the input and feedback signals, a lot higher overload capability, like 100V plus as compared to a couple of volts for many solid state configurations.  I don't know just how much overload capability we need, but the vacuum tube is pretty comforting in this situation.

Another reality is that ICs, and some discrete solid state circuits, are subject to thermal feedback distortion much more than tube circuits are.  When the current amp section changes temperature while playing a heavy passage, the die heats up and that changes its linearity, and the linearity of the attached voltage amp section too in the case of an IC. 

This thread generally reminds reminds me of a political discussion, no facts, just opinions.

Frank's intelligent factual commentary is the exception and is greatly appreciated. I have recently obtained a Nelson Pass First Watt F5 clone, which is still breaking in, but so far I am very impressed. The low level detail from this 25 Watt class A design, even at whisper levels is the best that I have ever heard. I have a group of highly modified Tripath amps sitting on my shelf, which I though were very good, but they don't come close to being able to resolve the music that the F5 can handle, and this is magnified at low levels.

The F5 is a class A push pull design using JFET technology. According to the 6Moons review by
Srajan Eban's, the F5 beats the the best 300B set amplifiers. Note the quote from Srajan below:

"Having come directly off intense inspections of Yamamoto's reference amp with various 300Bs when Nelson's second silver-faced model landed, I was shocked by how ridiculously low its playback level could be without causing any serious participatory losses. I got deeply involved at whisper levels without crank-reflex intrusions. Regardless of which 300B I rolled, the A-09S -- whose 27dB gain is far higher than the F5's -- needed higher playback levels to come on song. This demonstrated how the... um, purity of nano-level distortion in the transistor amp (which a valve lover would call a wholesale stripping away of benign and desirable THD) actually served the music better. It was more intelligible.

The F5 invites such ruminations and applies them to the habits of us Valve addicts. Compared to a Halcro's nonexistent distortion, tube THD seems completely justified to our kind; in fact, outright necessary. Why then is it that faced with the F5's impossibly low distortion (impossible certainly for any tube amp), thermionic liberties suddenly seem far less justified or necessary? Are Valvers addicted to unnatural stimulation?"

So the question is, does this new design, class A using JFET's, overcome some of the problems mentioned by Frank. What about the Tripath designs that some still love? The emerging class D approach? Frank, any comments would be appreciated.

For now, however, forgetting unnatural stimulation, you should hear my new F5 class A amp!!