best 15'' driver's for the job(0-300hz)

miguel42 · « **Reply #20 on:** 17 Mar 2009, 10:37 pm »

thanks to nick,bob and ed
it looks like a bit of a no brain-er with the Augie's, i will be crossing them over a little higher (mid 300's) but i cant see this to be an issue...the only problem seems how to get them, i feel a bit of a duck out of water, or should i say a duck across the water!!! , am i the only person in England trying ob designs.
i have e-mailed hawthorn and hope to get a response shorty..cant wait to get my hands on a lovely pair (ooh arr)..
thanks again mike

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #21 on:** 17 Mar 2009, 10:45 pm »

If you email Diana Hawthorne directly, she's the "shipping department" for the company. She'll be the one to calculate the shipping cost to you.
Yes, there are few guys in England with not only open baffle, but Hawthorne drivers in OB. The company just recently added the 37th country they've shipped to, so England won't be a problem.
I really don't think you'll have a problem with 300. I forget now what they're capable of on the high end, but from what I remember, it was high enough to make me think, "There's nobody that's ever going to go that high with these kind of drivers". My apologies for not knowing Mike.

Bob

dmiller · « **Reply #22 on:** 17 Mar 2009, 11:01 pm »

Do the Augie's play loud enough in O.B. ? I plan on EQing the bottom bass. The SPL and max power aren't very high.

owenmd · « **Reply #23 on:** 17 Mar 2009, 11:35 pm »

Hi,

I'm a Brit in the US newly enjoying the wonderful Hawthorne products. I have Trio's using 15" Sterlings and 2 Auggies per side driven by two Rythmik PEQ370 OB plate amps. With traditional high powered box woofers and subs, I find the wall of high pressure sound is initially impressive, but gets very tiring quite quickly. The Auggies, although not rattling your trouser legs, play more than loud enough for me with most rock music unless you're a complete headbanger.... in fact, because they are so easy to listen to, you'll find they are going much louder than you think. I find them just more true to life, accurate and pleasant to listen to than any other bass system I have heard.... I wont say subwoofer, because they're not.... but they play low enough for me to not miss one with any music. The Auggies don't tend to excite room vibrations like normal woofers and have next to zero overhang and are very fast.

Best,

Mark

Arlo · « **Reply #24 on:** 17 Mar 2009, 11:37 pm »

Right on about websites MJ. I don't linger long on sites that don't have an easy way to buy, are short on info, or rarely updated (like planet10)

I haven't heard the Augie. But my Pyle PA15s are cheaper, have a bigger magnet, less moving mass, a super low fs (27) that matches the Augie and a Q closer to optimum .65. Plus the Augie plot is like a huge mountain below 100hz while the Pyle rolls off more sanely.

I had Underwood Hifi work on my cheapo Denon POA800 and once I got it hooked up the bass through the Pyles was more tight and clean than anything I've heard to date. Even louder than I can stand and the cones move about 2mm. The Alpha 15 is nowhere near this level of performance.

'But they're UGLY!!' Not when I get through modding them:

http://img27.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0000124.jpg

Anyone interested in this mod just let me know.

scorpion · « **Reply #25 on:** 17 Mar 2009, 11:51 pm »

I have conducted some simulations with MJK's Worksheet to see at what frequency within the drivers stated X-max some 15-inchers spoken of here will reach 100 dB SPL. 30 Hz was chosen as the lowest frequency to estimate at. Testbed has been an H-frame with dimensions 16" x 16" x 15" (length is 15" including a 1" thick baffle). The H-frame has the advantage that frequency response can be tailord to within 1 dB by choosing an appropiate LP frequency. This was specified as Linkwitz-Riley 12 dB/oct. All units will eventually start to fall off between 250 - 300 Hz. In this way we have used the H-frame to EQ response and applied power will give what it takes to reach those 100 dBs, 1 m distance 32 inch earheight. All units will loose in efficiency in the H-frame, and all results are for just 1 unit. Have a look at MJK's excellent paper on H- and U-frame to get the spirit of this: http://www.quarter-wave.com/OBs/U_and_H_Frames.pdf .

Results:

Frequency(Hz) SPL Cone swing    X-max    Power

AE IB15    30    100    9 mm 18.5 mm    220 w/8 ohm

AE TD-Dipol (Lynn O) 30    100    9 mm 9 mm 40 w/4 ohm

SI Augie    32    100 7.1 mm 7.1 mm 80 w/8 ohm

Alpha15 43    100 3.6 mm 3.6 mm 28 w/8 ohm

GW-1858 (in 19x19x15)    37    100 3.4 mm 3.4 mm 36 w/8 ohm

Perhaps interesting ?

/Erling

pedroskova · « **Reply #26 on:** 18 Mar 2009, 12:29 am »

Single driver: the AE IB15 ...SS watts are cheap.

Two drivers: AE TD-Dipol (Lynn O) ...in series, still efficient, twice the surface area.

In my own experience (4 x 12" - ~ equivalent to 2 x 15"), all would work in a two driver set up. The superiority of the AE designs depends on where they would be crossed: at 150Hz, where I lowpass mine, I could find better ways in which to spend my money.

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #27 on:** 18 Mar 2009, 01:09 am »

Does the software give an indication of sound quality?

Bob

dmiller · « **Reply #28 on:** 18 Mar 2009, 01:31 am »

Thanks Erling, the numbers are helpful. Since Martin's spreadsheet is no longer available, what's the best second choice?
I have considered the IB15, but it won't be available for several months. I'm concerned about distortion on the IB15, considering the huge xmax.

What has been the experience with adding a boxed subwoofer at 50hz with the common 15" drivers?
Have any of you modeled the 12" peerless XXL as a woofer (up to 200-300hz?)
Thanks.

scorpion · « **Reply #29 on:** 18 Mar 2009, 08:28 am »

No it won't say anything about sound quality, Bob.

It says something about the formidable demands that actually will excist even on 15" units to reach 30 Hz 100 dB in OB.
The Augie I have heard, it is very good, the Alphas I have myself and they are good enough. I think others have witnessed that IB15 is smooth even at big cone swing. Except for the AE IB15, which actually would reach 100 dB - 30 Hz no doubt, differences among the others are not very striking.

I did a simulation on the Peerless XXL model 830847 12" in a 16x16x15 H-frame. It will reach 100 dB at 40 Hz with 7 mm swing with 256 w/4 ohm and 30 Hz 97 dB with the same power at 12.5 mm X-max.

I think the comparison in H-frames is fair, it will actually demand much less from the units at these low frequencies than putting them on a flat baffle measuring 40" x 20" . The high Qts, low cone mass Alpha15 is an exception it will reach 100 dB 40 Hz with 5 mm cone swing with 17 watts/8 ohm.

/Erling

dweekie · « **Reply #30 on:** 18 Mar 2009, 08:51 am »

Quote from: dmiller on 18 Mar 2009, 01:31 am

What has been the experience with adding a boxed subwoofer at 50hz with the common 15" drivers?
Have any of you modeled the 12" peerless XXL as a woofer (up to 200-300hz?)
Thanks.

4 Augies per side (8 total) and a servo sub for the lowest octave.

Another forum member's old build, but droooooooool

50hz seems a bit high; the servo in the picture is crossed at 28hz.

Telstar · « **Reply #31 on:** 18 Mar 2009, 03:13 pm »

Quote from: scorpion on 17 Mar 2009, 11:51 pm

I have conducted some simulations with MJK's Worksheet to see at what frequency within the drivers stated X-max some 15-inchers spoken of here will reach 100 dB SPL. 30 Hz was chosen as the lowest frequency to estimate at. Testbed has been an H-frame with dimensions 16" x 16" x 15" (length is 15" including a 1" thick baffle).

Results:

Frequency(Hz) SPL Cone swing    X-max    Power

AE IB15    30    100    9 mm 18.5 mm    220 w/8 ohm

AE TD-Dipol (Lynn O) 30    100    9 mm 9 mm 40 w/4 ohm

SI Augie    32    100 7.1 mm 7.1 mm 80 w/8 ohm

Alpha15 43    100 3.6 mm 3.6 mm 28 w/8 ohm

GW-1858 (in 19x19x15)    37    100 3.4 mm 3.4 mm 36 w/8 ohm

Perhaps interesting ?

/Erling

VERY interesting, Erling

Now if you could also add the AE OB15, the table would be perfect.

I'm going to read the paper about U and H frame. Because I cannot use H frame for WAF reasons, I need to figure out the response with a U frame.

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #32 on:** 18 Mar 2009, 03:18 pm »

Hey Erling,
If it's not too much trouble, I'd be curious to see the numbers for a 22" X 22" flat baffle.
{Sorry if my comment earlier sounded a little snippy}.

Bob

Telstar · « **Reply #33 on:** 18 Mar 2009, 03:55 pm »

Quote from: scorpion on 18 Mar 2009, 08:28 am

I did a simulation on the Peerless XXL model 830847 12" in a 16x16x15 H-frame. It will reach 100 dB at 40 Hz with 7 mm swing with 256 w/4 ohm and 30 Hz 97 dB with the same power at 12.5 mm X-max.

This is different from the SLS-315 that I plan to use, or not? If they are different, could you run the sim with 315 soo?
Thanks!

Telstar · « **Reply #34 on:** 18 Mar 2009, 04:39 pm »

Quote from: Arlo on 17 Mar 2009, 11:37 pm

I haven't heard the Augie. But my Pyle PA15s are cheaper, have a bigger magnet, less moving mass, a super low fs (27) that matches the Augie and a Q closer to optimum .65. Plus the Augie plot is like a huge mountain below 100hz while the Pyle rolls off more sanely.

Anyone interested in this mod just let me know.

/Interested.

But do they sell the drivers alone?
I cant find them, only PPA15 model:
http://www.pyleaudio.com/manuals/PPA8-10-12-15-18.pdf

It looks fine but not great, on paper.

ebag4 · « **Reply #35 on:** 18 Mar 2009, 05:16 pm »

Quote from: miguel42 on 17 Mar 2009, 10:37 pm

thanks to nick,bob and ed
it looks like a bit of a no brain-er with the Augie's, i will be crossing them over a little higher (mid 300's) but i cant see this to be an issue...the only problem seems how to get them, i feel a bit of a duck out of water, or should i say a duck across the water!!! , am i the only person in England trying ob designs.
i have e-mailed hawthorn and hope to get a response shorty..cant wait to get my hands on a lovely pair (ooh arr)..
thanks again mike

The Augies will do a great job for you. They have been a part of the last 4 OB projects I have built, they simply sound great, musical bass, very nice.

Best,
Ed

dmiller · « **Reply #36 on:** 18 Mar 2009, 05:18 pm »

I've never seen this Dayton discussed fro OB. Not only are the specs good, but it's a hifi, not pro driver.

RSS390HF-4 15" High Fidelity Subwoofer Specifications

   * Power handling: 500 watts RMS/800 watts max
   * VCdia: 2-1/2"
   * Le: 1.00 mH
   * Impedance: 4 ohms
   * Re: 3.3 ohms
   * Frequency range: 18 - 800 Hz
   * Fs: 18 Hz
   * SPL: 90 dB 2.83 V/1m (or 87 ???)
   * Vas: 9.55 cu. ft.
   * Qms: 3.10
   * Qes: .49
   * Qts: .42
   * Xmax: 14mm
   * Dimensions:
   Overall Diameter: 15-5/16"
   Cutout Diameter: 14-1/8"
   Mounting Depth: 6-1/8"

Here's a link to more specs: http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-468s.pdf

Edit: Emailed Dayton, they said spl of 90 is incorrect. Should be 87.

Arlo · « **Reply #37 on:** 18 Mar 2009, 07:36 pm »

Yea telstar it's the same thing as PPA 15. Since the first P stands for Pyle I just called them Pyle PA15.
I'm surprised at the lack of interest in these drivers, but I understand that a Q of .65 seems too low for many people. But I think it's ideal. As you go up in Q, magnets usually shrink. This gives you more bass in OB but less control. I'm betting the Augie is quite good although I don't like the idea of a 'mass disk'. The Alphas have nice output in OB but the motor is far too weak for accurate sound. The best you'll get is Mr. Carver's 'Rolling' bass.

Telstar · « **Reply #38 on:** 18 Mar 2009, 09:18 pm »

Quote from: Arlo on 18 Mar 2009, 07:36 pm

Yea telstar it's the same thing as PPA 15. Since the first P stands for Pyle I just called them Pyle PA15.
I'm surprised at the lack of interest in these drivers, but I understand that a Q of .65 seems too low for many people. But I think it's ideal. As you go up in Q, magnets usually shrink. This gives you more bass in OB but less control. I'm betting the Augie is quite good although I don't like the idea of a 'mass disk'. The Alphas have nice output in OB but the motor is far too weak for accurate sound. The best you'll get is Mr. Carver's 'Rolling' bass.

I'm looking for drivers that i can get within Europe. Overseas shipment kills the budget - its between 130 and 300$ for a pair of 15" drivers.

Thanks for the reply on the Pyle model.
I have simulated in Basta the PPA12, but the Peerless is still marginally superior.

The 15" that you use instead looks much better.

dmiller · « **Reply #39 on:** 18 Mar 2009, 09:29 pm »

Quote from: Arlo on 18 Mar 2009, 07:36 pm

...............
I'm surprised at the lack of interest in these drivers, but I understand that a Q of .65 seems too low for many people. .................

I think people are getting that a Qts closer to 5 will likely be more musical. What's hard to judge are the distortion characteristics of a driver driven hard. That's one reason I keep looking at Dayton products. They clearly differentiate between hifi and hi output drivers. I expect that the best sound is from a hifi design that will need to be driven hard. Considering the current emphasis on low power amps, this may be a problem for some people to accept. But I feel a pro amp is ideal to drive these kinds of big woofers.

There's also a lower Fs on hifi woofers. While Fs can be too low (in my limited understanding of the modeling), the pro woofer Fs is almost always too high.

The other factor is the original question of this thread. Are we designing to cross over at 200-300 or 800-1000? The older higher xover designs need to have the woofer good in the low vocal range. But if I'm designing for a woofer from 50-200 hz, how do the characteristics of the ideal woofer change?

Edit: Let me add that my OB will have an active xover. I would need to be more careful with a passive.