Face-Off II: Belt versus Direct Drive

TheChairGuy · « **on:** 23 Nov 2008, 02:28 am »

The first face-off 1 year ago can be seen here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=47865.0

The Tale of the Tape...

VPI HW-19 Mk. III with Audioquest PT-6, VTAF and dropped Expressimo counterweight (circa 1996) $1200.00 list
$700.00 - paid on ebay
$400.00 - AQ arm with VTAF & dropped counterweight and armboard
$100.00 - New, VPI inverted bearing for HW-19's
$60 - used motor
$600.00 - Revelation Audio Labs phono cable (no wire included with the AQ arm)
$350 - used 2lb, 12" periphery platter (from Sound Engineering LLC)
$2 - 6" high 'Swim Noodle' supports for DIY SAMA effort (recommended by Mike at VPI
Total - USD$2212.00

JVC QL-F6 (circa 1979) $350 list price
$100.00 - paid on ebay
$40.00 - 10 lbs of Plast-i-Clay
$30.00 - EAR Isodamp (DIY sub-mat)
$60.00 - Herbie's Way Excellent Mat (top mat)
$8.00 - DupliColor UC103 sound deadening spray (platter underside)
Total - USD$238.00

I already did a face-off between the fully tricked out Technics SL-1200 Mk. II/Origin Live arm/outboard motor supply, etc. and still preferred the JVC, overall.

Tables supported on 3.5" thick block of maple (4 pointy brass toes pointed downward with the JVC...too much of a pain with the VPI).....all records scrupulously cleaned by a Nitty Gritty RCM.

A much closer result this fine day...but, I played all day to allow further break in of the Revelation Audio cable (it hasn't been used for a spell, and PTFE dialectric requires the longest time to 'seat' again). After 5 hours I think it's 'cooked' again (please don't give me grief about break-in..it exists...but I think it's dialectric interaction and not wire)

This time out, cheapie JVC was barely my preference - on jazz, classical, pop, avante garde (techno-pop), reggae, country and rock. It has the speed control of CD, with the innate 'rightness' that vinyl alone among formats allows. Bass was tauter, no wobble to voices or instruments, the midrange a bit recessed, but sounded more exact...only in the treble did I find parity of sound.

The VPI did have a much bigger/grander image, and was notably quieter and things were significantly improved this time (the outer record platter is truly a great addition). I changed out the bearing/spindle recently because the old spindle had a lilt to it...the new one is truly a great upgrade to any HW-19...and highly recommended to owners.

It was, again, all about pitch and or speed regulation I think. I know - another $700-$1000 would buy a VPI SDS speed control...but it's a lot of money for what can be found, new or used, in a direct drive deck today' ya' know

The results were truly much, much closer this time around...so much so that I think I might actually invest the money in the SDS and see how far I can take this belt drive concept

Quartz Lock, Servo Controlled DC can be had on various models from Technics, JVC and others licensed by Matsushita for ultra-precise speed regulation for a few hundred dollars new or used. Ease of use and auto function is a further attraction for some of these decks....tho I did not factor this in for the above (nor price...tho one has to question sanity of paying 10x more for a deck with slightly inferior sound). Only the sound quality was assessed.

Again, I am completely agnostic to the results

John

JoshK · « **Reply #1 on:** 23 Nov 2008, 02:36 am »

What carts were used?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #2 on:** 23 Nov 2008, 04:20 am »

Quote from: JoshK on 23 Nov 2008, 02:36 am

What carts were used?

Denon DL-160vdh...47K loading (I have loading plugs, but didn't bother to use them) right into MM stage.

It's mid-pack cartridge in my holdings, but I didn't want to use the Grado in both (even tho compliance of 20cu would be fine for either arms) as the Grado would generally respond to the vertical and horizontal damping in the JVC a bit better than in the AQ arm (pivot fluid damped or not).

See bottom of page 2 for others in my burgeoning collection: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=31869.20

John

macrojack · « **Reply #3 on:** 23 Nov 2008, 04:50 am »

I listen to a direct drive turntable and I wear a belt around my waist. I wish the belt was shorter. It used to be.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #4 on:** 23 Nov 2008, 05:17 am »

A few more album sides since my first post...and things do sound a bit better with the VPI now.

It's a bit clearer sounding now...some 'lag' on transients are going away. I suspect this may have been phase shift as the teflon dialectric broke back in...not sure if there is more left to it...but perhaps my pronouncement of the JVC DD triumphing over the VPI was a little premature.

It still does not have that 'snap' that tells me things are real as the JVC does...but, I'm enjoying the VPI a lot right now.

I may have to play a bunch more hours before I can truly announce a victor.

John

opnly bafld · « **Reply #5 on:** 23 Nov 2008, 05:34 am »

John, have you tried Kevlar fishing line for a drive belt?

Lin

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #6 on:** 23 Nov 2008, 05:45 am »

Quote from: opnly bafld on 23 Nov 2008, 05:34 am

John, have you tried Teflon fishing line for a drive belt?

Lin

Nope - a MAJOR tweek is it? I luv' the ones that are practically free aa

I've never messed with different drive belts...I have read that it's pretty incisive to do so, tho.

Just std. (fairly new) VPI round belt...talc'ed as they suggest to do.

John

opnly bafld · « **Reply #7 on:** 23 Nov 2008, 05:53 am »

Kevlar fly tying thread used as a "belt" for a TT @ $15 for 300 yards, enough for everybody on AC that has a TT.
If the motor spindle is metal this will not work.

Lin

AudioSoul · « **Reply #8 on:** 24 Nov 2008, 07:28 pm »

How long has it been since you had your hearing checked? Seriously,
sometimes we hear some frequencies at different levels. Maybe this is what is
happening, cause I know the VPI to be loved by hundreds of people that have
made comments over the years. Something to concider anyway.......

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #9 on:** 24 Nov 2008, 09:43 pm »

Quote from: opnly bafld on 23 Nov 2008, 05:53 am

Kevlar fly tying thread used as a "belt" for a TT @ $15 for 300 yards, enough for everybody on AC that has a TT.
If the motor spindle is metal this will not work.

Lin

The VPI has a plastic pulley...and metal spindle. Sounds like kevlar would then work. Where do you find it out there - any Sporting Goods shop?

Quote from: AudioSoul

How long has it been since you had your hearing checked? Seriously, sometimes we hear some frequencies at different levels. Maybe this is what is happening, cause I know the VPI to be loved by hundreds of people that have made comments over the years. Something to concider anyway.......

Hey - my stone ears have served me well over time

My shit-fer-brains on the other hand...

Well, if my hearing is going it went rather fast. As in the AM my JVC DD was sounding wonderful and the VPI, just hours later (after setup) was sounding considerably less evocative and thrilling (ie, less like music to me)

Related to my experiment, a buddy has volunteered his VPI SDS for a month for me to evaluate....so I will, firsthand, get to hear the 'optimal' realization of the Mk. III (otherwise fairly stock, sans springs, without adding larger/different platter, etc).

Onward gents - mush....mush

John

opnly bafld · « **Reply #10 on:** 24 Nov 2008, 10:33 pm »

I found places that sell it by searching "fly fishing kevlar thread 6/0".

6/0 is the size the tweakers tried.

ricmon · « **Reply #11 on:** 25 Nov 2008, 08:30 pm »

John one of the biggest improvements to my belt drive TT (after constructing a isolation platform that weights about 150 lbs and speed control) was to put 3 cones under the motor. This made a nice improvement in inner detail. Have you tried something like that under the VPI motor?

Ric

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #12 on:** 25 Nov 2008, 11:56 pm »

Quote from: ricmon on 25 Nov 2008, 08:30 pm

John one of the biggest improvements to my belt drive TT (after constructing a isolation platform that weights about 150 lbs and speed control) was to put 3 cones under the motor. This made a nice improvement in inner detail. Have you tried something like that under the VPI motor?

Ric

Hey Ric,

The motor is attached to the the 'frame' of the VPI....the sub-platter and platter is floating away from it on 3 x 5" foam noodle tubes that essentially decouple the motor from the platter (only leaving the rubber belt).

The 'frame' is now sitting on 4 brass toes pointed down into the 20lbs block of maple cutting board. Good tweek..so far, it doesn't change the original pecking order of DD over belt (for now), but it's a move in the right direction.

A fellow vinylphool has most kindly offered the use of his SDS unit from VPI...so I'll be able to see how fully regulated AC synchronous to the 60hz line sounds

John

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #13 on:** 27 Nov 2008, 03:03 am »

Quote from: opnly bafld on 23 Nov 2008, 05:34 am

John, have you tried Kevlar fishing line for a drive belt?

Lin

Lin, good call on this

The system is still warming up so I cannot vouch for it's sonic virtues just yet....but, I used a 12"+ round piece of dental floss (the only hardy thread I could think of offhand in the house) and put it to work.

Again, I can't yet vouch for it's qualities yet....but the VPI is more impervious to footfalls now. Apparently, there is juddering between the surround/plinth (where the motor resides) and the sub-platter/platter where normally the belt attaches (with a plastic motor pulley). Even tho the (spring) suspension was defeated, it was still far more prone to foot strikes than the JVC DD.

I was attributing part of that to the handy internal vertical and horizontal damping within the JVC arm (and that might be part of it), but it seems rubber being elastic as it is, the heavy platter/subplatter would judder in tune with the plinth when footfalls struck. It seems to take about 2x the footstrike weight to toss the needle out of the groove now.

Only about 15 minutes in (do AC synchronous motors need warm up time?....mine seems to play all the album sides after the first with less off-key...noticable mostly with piano) and I think I am enjoying this more than the belt drive.

More to come....but we're starting to get this VPI talking high-fidelity now

John

opnly bafld · « **Reply #14 on:** 27 Nov 2008, 01:24 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 27 Nov 2008, 03:03 am

Quote from: opnly bafld on 23 Nov 2008, 05:34 am
John, have you tried Kevlar fishing line for a drive belt?

Lin

Lin, good call on this

The system is still warming up so I cannot vouch for it's sonic virtues just yet....but, I used a 12"+ round piece of dental floss (the only hardy thread I could think of offhand in the house) and put it to work.

That's what Marty of BFS (where I read about using the kevlar thread) used when he was first told about the fishing thread.
He had problems with the dental floss breaking periodically.

Lin

Wayner · « **Reply #15 on:** 27 Nov 2008, 02:04 pm »

Can I ask the stupid question of how you joined the ends of your dental floss together to make a belt? Just a plain ol' knot or what?

Wayner

macrojack · « **Reply #16 on:** 27 Nov 2008, 02:27 pm »

Wayner - When you were learning your knots in Boy Scouts you were shown the Audiophile Knot. Why don't you remember that?

Wayner · « **Reply #17 on:** 27 Nov 2008, 02:39 pm »

Macro...

I must of missed knot tieing 101.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #18 on:** 27 Nov 2008, 04:45 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 27 Nov 2008, 02:04 pm

Can I ask the stupid question of how you joined the ends of your dental floss together to make a belt? Just a plain ol' knot or what?

Wayner

Just one incredibly small knot....it compacts down quite small, but there is still a knot.

This is the first time I played with slack, too...as the VPI has maybe 1/8" you can play with by shifting the top deck in relationship to the motor secured to the stationary plinth. Interesting payoffs this way.

Solidness is way better with the thread over the belt....but, there is still quite obvious defects in pitch and speed stability. Piano's highlight this, complex passages of any type notably slow the deck down (stylus drag not uncompensated by the deck running un-regulated)

I'm getting the idea, that no matter what one does with the VPI...without outboard speed regulation/compensation of some kind (AC, DC, etc) that it will always be second rate to a really well-sorted direct drive deck. Seriously, CD, for all it's musical vices...taught us to expect pitch stability as the relative norm, not exception

Mind you, I am not any golden-eared audiophool....but warbling (flutter) is evident with this currently unregulated thread or belt rive VPI deck....and, frankly, it's annoying.

But, I soldier on

The good samaritan lending me his SDS unit for a few weeks should get it here within 10 days or so.

John

GBB · « **Reply #19 on:** 27 Nov 2008, 04:46 pm »

Here's what the folks at Scheu (http://www.scheu-analogue.com/en/index.htm) recommend.
They supply a very thin thread which they describe as "disappearing thread." I believe that you can buy it at stores that sell sewing supplies. Or you can call up their US distributor http://www.hudsonaudioimports.com/ and get a spool for a bit more money. It's still pretty cheap and you'll be guaranteed of getting something already proven to work well in this application.

---Gary