[lazydays]

A couple weeks later I happened to walk past the thread display, and they had this silk/kevlar combo (remember silk will not stretch just like Kevlar). Bought a spool for about three dollars and have never looked back.

So is this the final - best - thread to find and use in place of the VPI rubber belt? Obvoiusly I've been waiting for a final outcome to be declared before I take the plunge again. I did try thread some time ago but it stretched, so I went back to the belt.

Also - can someone please show me the link to tying the proper knot?

Thanks,
Bob

have good news here and some bad news. First I can't find the spool of thread with the Kevlar in it, and went over to JoAnne Fabrics to get some more. The lady knew exactly what I wanted. But they don't sell it anymore. But alas there's good news in all this quagmire. They replaced it with 100% silk thread! Silk won't stretch like Kevlar, but is much more supple. I also found two others to try, and will be sending you three different samples to experiment with. When I find the Kevlar stuff I'll send you some of that as well (it's here, but where?) There'll be the silk, and a 100% rayon thread (it won't stretch either), and some new stuff(to me anyway) called "vicious" that's a polyester blend. If you want to try the Gelspun, I'll be glad to send you some of that as well (I had trouble with knots holding).
gary

[BobM]

Woo hoo. I see a string shootoff coming! 

Thanks,
Bob

[TheChairGuy]

Woo hoo. I see a string shootoff coming! 

Thanks,
Bob

...and I'm actually interested in your results.  We are all sick, no?

John

[PMAT]

First we boil it....then we freeze it.... then we pet it.......voila' eet ees pearfect.  aa  Yes John, my sense of humor has cooked me on many occasions. The headstone for my grave is going to say "What are you looking at?" Now that is a destination!

[PMAT]

It's really about love. You play TT number 3 because you love it. You play system #2 because you have love for it. You play old Van Morrison because you love it. Not because it sounds the best, just for love  or affection. Sometimes its just a good feeling for a component or a song. It's not always complicated.

[lazydays]

First we boil it....then we freeze it.... the we pet it.......voila' eet ees pearfect.  aa  Yes John, my sense of humor has cooked me on many occasions. The headstone for my grave is going to say "What are you looking at?" Now that is a destination!

well there are two other things that can be done with the O ring drive that no one has brought up. Buy a rosin bag bag to dust the belt (might just be the ticket). But better yet find a can of Chesterton's spray on belt dressing (the clear stuff). Spray the O ring and then let it dry. Later instal the belt and let it run for about twenty minutes. It won't slip!

   Now here's a thought for all the fishing line folks out there. Forget monofilment leader material (if you use this be sure to get the IGFA certified line as the diameter is much more consistent), and look for some Flourocarbon leader material (Cabalas). I like Frogs Hair (brand name). This stuff stretches much less than regular mono, and is harder. Be sure you buy a spool as the little packets are tapered from one end to the other. Still I find the thread is better. Here's a test I do while playing music fairly loud, and the results worked for me. As the motor is turning and the sound is comming thru the speakers sorta rub your finger nail against the thread (I just let the thread rub accross the top of my finger nail ever so lightly). Do you feel any vibration? If you do you got a problem! As your sending feedback into the platter. I had this problem from two sources, and finally got the isolated. Then there was no vibration in the thread, and you could really hear a difference in the music. I isolated the table and motor with a Ginko Cloud platform, and then later sat the motor on a Sorbathane pad on top of the Cloud. Now I'm thinking that I take this all one step further by moving the phono stage into a further isolated place with the IC's shielded from all the incomming crap
gary

[BobM]

As anal retentive and wacky as it sounds, you can never go too far with TT related isolation.

Here's a trick that Dave mentioned to me a while ago. It definitely made an audible difference, increasing the smoothness and liquidity of the sound quite noticeably ...

If you plase your finger lightly on the belt where it comes off the spindle and travels back to the platter you will feel a shuddering. The explaination is that the spindle is pulling the belt to propel it, and the push off the spindle gives it an extra energy and is not as smooth as the pull side. It is also stretching the belt on the pull side and compressing it on the push side, making it "flabbier" and setting up this unwanted vibration. This is transmitted to the platter, for sure.

So, what to do about it? Ideally I would like o get a little rubber bearing, like on a tape deck and have it press lightly against the belt where it comes off the spindle. I currently just take my wooden Audioquest brush and place it there so the edge presses against the rubber belt and stops the vibration. The brush is heavy enough not to be moved away and it does the job nicely.

Try it and report back on your findings.

Enjoy,
Bob

[Wayner]

This is a area between a rock and a hard place. We want a nice rubber belt to drive the table, but it has poor tolerances in thickness and durometer, so as it goes round and round, the belt unevenly stretches in different amounts, producing flutter in the speed.

String or filament will produce better tension and thus better timing, but because it is not so elastic, it transmits energy from the motor to the platter. We need a steel belted radial!

Wayner 

[TheChairGuy]

Well, the JVC QL-F6 DD is back in rotation today.

First, I plugged it into the VPI SDS unit...as VPI says it will improve any turntable.  Like every 'conditioner' I've ever used with, it did not help, only slight degradation.  The pallet was cleaner and cleaner, but it added a bit of 'etch' to the proceedings.

The new ADC Astrion cartridge is still breaking in on it....so conclusions are difficult to pin down until 15 hours more (I found ADC's take at least 25 hours to fully flesh out).  The Denon DL-160vdH on the VPI combo was fully broken in comparison.

Right now, the soundstage width, depth and height are all smaller....but I don't know if that is due to a different cartridge, a cartridge that needs more break-in time or the innate differences between belt and direct drive (I had found before that belt drives tend to sound more grand...at the expense of 'specificity' of instruments sounds and placement within the soundstage)

Some more break-in to go...hopefully by Tuesday after playing for another 15 hours during work for me, I'll be able to fully make sense of it.

However, I already have an inkling which of the two is ahead right now in the sonic sweepstakes 

John

[PMAT]

Inkle me babe.

[TheChairGuy]

I ran the system for another couple hours after I wrote the above so the cartridge is fleshing out now, but it still needs some seasoning 

It's actually an ADC XLM III Improved body with an Astrion stylus assembly....which I'm nearly certain was what the Astrion was.  This was the last iteneration of the much-heralded (US made) LM-series from ADC in the early 80's...after this CD musta' started to chew up their earnings and they soon went over to Japan for their higher end offerings. 

There was a 'Digital series' that may have been US-made, then they went to Japan for the TRX-series (I own the TRX-1 and it fails to attract me after trying so many times in so many decks now).

Anyhow....back to the show...

John 

[TheChairGuy]

For anyone just tuning in...go to the first post of this topic to see related arms or tweeks used with each table.

....and so, I have reached a conclusion between the VPI HW-19 Mk. III (Belt Drive) and JVC QL-F6 (Direct Drive)....in favor of DIRECT DRIVE once again.

Unlike the last time, where the DD walked over the Belt Driver due to a spindle mis-alignment - this one was a lot harder to know the outcome.  Ultimately, it comes down to the belt driver feeling and acting 'fragile'....the music nor presentation does not come thru with rock solid authority.  I sense a skittishness in the way it conveys music that never happens with the JVC.

Yeah, the VPI plays large (deeper/wider/taller) better.....but those grandiose sonics are at the expense of 'specificity' (to borrow a phrase from a recent b50-and-I email trail).  Every instruments feels it's placed where it should be, the instruments have natural decay and I am straining to hear nothing at all.

One further point in VPI's favor was that it does not at all sound 'etched' in any way....an issue that still plagues the Technics SL-1200 MK. II (DD) unit.  I'd have to put the VPI above the Technics in sonics....even with all the add-ons it has ($2700 Origin Live arm, KAB power supply and strobe disabler).  Similar money spent and I'd take the VPI, frankly

So, do I have an over-achieving DD machine in this JVC?  Perhaps.....it just sounds to me like Direct Drive shows more promise, as well, for less money than most ways to achieve it with belt drives. It's going back a stretch, but I think I'd take the super el cheapo JVC QL-A2 I had over the Technics, as well.  The JVC's lack 'etch' - which is anathema to me 

So now, the awe-inspiring JVC QL-Y66F, perhaps JVC's top deck ever made, is now in the house and makes the QL-F6 look like a toy. It's BIG - I've got 8 lbs of plasticlay waiting to fill it's gizzards.  It's big enough to maybe take 12 lbs - with a 6.5lb/13" platter, 10" arm and magnetic supported main bearing and magnetic q-damping for vertical and horizontal planes (important on the higher compliance cartridges that I seem to be drawn to)

Regards, John

[BobM]

I'm surprised that the SDS, which is NOT a power conditioner but a speed accuracy controller, didn't have an effect on your VPI. One other suggestion that I found helped ina very meaningful way ...

Take your wooden Audioquest brush, or something with a little mass to it, and place it against the belt where it pushes off the spindle before it goes back to the platter. You don't need much, just enough to prevent the flapping of the belt from hitting the platter. This made a very noticable improvement in that "specificity" and :liquidity" that you speak of, with very little effort.

Merry Christmas,
Bob

[TheChairGuy]

I'm surprised that the SDS, which is NOT a power conditioner but a speed accuracy controller, didn't have an effect on your VPI. One other suggestion that I found helped ina very meaningful way ...

Merry Christmas,
Bob

Hey Bob,

I never said the SDS didn't help the VPI....fact is I never played the VPI after the SDS arrived without it, but I'd say it helped it a bit, overall. 

However, VPI advertises the SDS as an aid to all or most turntables.  Despite it being tailored for AC synchronous motors that feed of the mains 60hz frequency (in the US and Canada, at least), it also allows a range of 10% north or south to counteract slow or faster running speeds.  Once the new bearing broke in and after the first application of grease was changed out for slippery Dupont Krytox, the deck ran spot-on speed at 59.95 Hz.  Close enough to 60hz that I doubt the SDS was of significant benefit in my case.  Tho, I did not try it without it again, frankly.

The SDS with the JVC sounded worse.  It sounded pinched as any power conditioner has.  The SDS is both line frequency generator and line conditioner....so it really is both.  For the VPI it was beneficial - for the JVC (DC motor on this) it made it sound worse.

I should note that I'd take the VPI/SDS set-up over my other two DD decks I own...the uber-modded and equally pricey Technics Sl-1200 Mk. II and DUAL 701 - at no time did the VPI sound 'etched' or strident to me. 

It fell short only of the JVC DD....which sounds more settled, nuanced and confident...the VPI sounded skittish in comparison.  In skip rejection, it is almost impossible to get the JVC off track - despite a good pounding on the plinth.  With the VPI, walking on eggshells (suspension 100% defeated) was the norm to keep it from skipping occasionally.

The skipping issue did improve with the VPI after applying a small grommet of EAR Isodamp C-1002 between plinth and bearing....indicating that the de-coupled nature of belt drive is good at repelling some kinds of additional energies (motor-borne), but not as good at others (footfall borne).  At least with this particular example of belt drive.

I can clearly see why there are adherents to both drive types...it just seems to me that direct drive shows more promise than belt drive.  Further, I think my return to vinyl with such gusto a few years ago was fueled by direct drive (the JVC kind, at least ) and that I am not certain would I have fallen in love again with the medium if I had tried belt drive again upon return.

(JVC) Direct Drive, filled with appropriate amounts of plasticlay in the gizzards, sounds like CD done better than any CD player can do.  The VPI sounds great, fantastic to many in a huge, layered way in sonics, but ultimately sounds unsettled, non-specific, and skittish in comparison.  Throw in auto-return and a vastly lower cost with the JVC and I called a winner, overall 

John

Regards, John

[BobM]

John,

I remember your first posts on your TT exploits. You were very surprised that improvements were easily discernable. It's been fun to watch your progress and posts ... a learning experience for many. Keep it up, it's never "over"! 

VPI's have always benefitted greatly from a stable and isolated platform under them. Your "eggshells" comment has me wondering if there is more to be pulled out of that setup with better isolation. That could easily explain the skittishness you are hearing. If I could suggest getting a couple of cans of squash or racquet balls and formulating a poor man's Ginko Cloud, you might find it has cured your footfall problem and helped to bring more out of the table.

Just a thought,
Bob

[TheChairGuy]

Bob,

The VPI suspension was already totally defeated and, simultaneously, I created a DIY SAMA for it, too (thanks to Mike at VPI's urging)

In place of the springs are 3 x 5.5" tall foam swim noodle pieces supporting the plinth.  At each corner of the table surround, in place of stock feet, are brass toes pointed down into a 3.5" thick maple block.

It's the exact same isolation that proved to be an amazing tweek on the JVC a couple years back.....and should be providing much the same benefit here.

My system is on an old wood floor, housed in a Indonesian-made armoire.  Clearly, not ideal, but it has a lot of mass.  The JVC on the maple block inside the cabinet sounds superb and never skips a beat.  The VPI does

It may be the oil-damped tonearm of the JVC....damping in both vertical and horizontal planes.  Whereas the AQ arm on the VPI has pivot damping....effective only in the horizontal/lateral plane.  My experiments previously with home brew damping troughs (that damp primarily vertically) told me these are of significant aid to reducing skipping.

So, maybe horizontal/lateral damping helps everyday tracking needs....but vertical is needed for greater skip protection?  Seems to make sense when you consider it

I think the sense of 'skittishness' is the de-coupled nature of belt drive itself.  It is lessened by various means

1. Inverted bearings that are located at the same horizontal plane, resisting tugging issues of belt drive better (btw, despite Mike at VPI calling the new HW-19 inverted, it is not.  It is merely higher quality, ie., harder, than the older one)

2. Closer tolerance bearings

3.  Heavier platters

4.  Heavy motor mounts

5.  Twin belt drive

6.  Using a less elastic medium aside from rubber (ie, floss, thread or tape)

7.  Flywheel/Dual motor drives

All of these help, but cannot change the nature of it.  Nonetheless, as belt drive is an inherently de-coupled medium...it is never direct.  Direct drive is that - direct - and sounds authoritative along with it (at least the JVC does)

I'm not trying to convince anyone of the merits of one drive system over another, I just found my experiments to be illuminating and hope it helpful for another out there.  I like Direct Drive (at least, JVC's version of it), it shows more promise at lower cost than belt drive.

Now, ya' know....an Idler Drive is in my future, right.  Damn - I am a sick man! 

John

[BobM]

I would love to hear a direct comparison of belt vs idler on the same TT. I think many of us would. It would certainly help isolate the "I just paid a lot for this new trick so it must be better" syndrome.

Unfortunately these devices are not yet on the "cheap enough to buy and try for myself" list yet.

Have a great Christmas fella's.
Bob

[TheChairGuy]

I would love to hear a direct comparison of belt vs idler on the same TT. I think many of us would. It would certainly help isolate the "I just paid a lot for this new trick so it must be better" syndrome.

Unfortunately these devices are not yet on the "cheap enough to buy and try for myself" list yet.

Have a great Christmas fella's.
Bob

Yeah, someone has to do better than $1690.00 that Teres charges for me to do a side-by-side, too.

I know there is a fair share of technology on there for the money...but it's a lot of spread for just motor and drive system.

According to a post I read at VinylAsylum once from Harry Weisfeld/VPI.....it's a choice of differences, not better.  Their rim drive sounds more direct with better bass and dynamics.  But, it's at the expense of ultimate noise level as the rim drive has higher rumble numbers (as a rubber wheel rolling around a platter likely would )

I will one day hear a Rim/Idler Drive for myself...but I think properly implemented Direct Drive will sound more direct with better bass and dynamics than most belt drives....but has the rumble issue a little better controlled than Rim/Idlers would.  Of course, theory rarely equals reality in audiophooldom, so I'll reserve final judgement after hearing it myself.

John

[lazydays]

I would love to hear a direct comparison of belt vs idler on the same TT. I think many of us would. It would certainly help isolate the "I just paid a lot for this new trick so it must be better" syndrome.

Unfortunately these devices are not yet on the "cheap enough to buy and try for myself" list yet.

Have a great Christmas fella's.
Bob

Yeah, someone has to do better than $1690.00 that Teres charges for me to do a side-by-side, too.

I know there is a fair share of technology on there for the money...but it's a lot of spread for just motor and drive system.

According to a post I read at VinylAsylum once from Harry Weisfeld/VPI.....it's a choice of differences, not better.  Their rim drive sounds more direct with better bass and dynamics.  But, it's at the expense of ultimate noise level as the rim drive has higher rumble numbers (as a rubber wheel rolling around a platter likely would )

I will one day hear a Rim/Idler Drive for myself...but I think properly implemented Direct Drive will sound more direct with better bass and dynamics than most belt drives....but has the rumble issue a little better controlled than Rim/Idlers would.  Of course, theory rarely equals reality in audiophooldom, so I'll reserve final judgement after hearing it myself.

John

well from what you just said there's a simple solution to the rumble, but not after the parts are built. On the drive hub you can epoxy a Turcite sleeve that's maybe .125" thick (The drive hub will of course be a little smaller in diameter). Then after the epoxy has setup for a few days; you grind the Turcite to the correct diameter. You can grind it just like steel, and be within .0005". This should just about kill all the rumble. After it's all done coat the Turcite with a little of the Chesterton's belt slip stuff (it's clear), and listen to music. I've done this same thing on flat surfaces many times in the past, and once you get the game plan it's easy.
gary

[TheChairGuy]

Sounds like a DIY Idler drive is in your future, Gary   aa

John