[TONEPUB]

So, you're using a 20 year old cartridge to make these comparisons, or did I miss something somewhere?

[TheChairGuy]

So, you're using a 20 year old cartridge to make these comparisons, or did I miss something somewhere?

You missed something, Jeff.

I saddled the lowly JVC with the 26 year old ADC Astrion.....and the VPI/AQ PT-6 had a Denon DL-160vdH (maybe 250 hours tops in it since I got the boron beauty from Holland and AJ's experienced hands). 

The ADC was even still in break-in phase below 25 hours on the new stylus - and I still preferred the JVC over the VPI.

John

[Derockster]

Excellent Cartridge you've got there in the ADC John if I do say so myself.

[Wayner]

The largest problem with a belt driven table, ala synchronous motor is the inherent vibration from the motor, snapping to the 16 or 24 pole spots. While This doesn't make the motor's RPM fluctuate, It does cause a vibration, which is movement and hard to isolate. This energy can easily be transferred to the belt.

One mistake many DIYers (including myself) make is isolating the motor (poorly). The motor has mechanical energy that needs to be bled off. Tho it seems to make sense to isolate the motor, it's like not taking the dog for a walk everyday. There is all that sorted energy that has to find a release and with a poorly isolated motor, the release is the belt (or chewed on furniture by the dog  ). If you have sensitive enough fingers, you can trace the vibrations from the platter to the plinth and up thru the arm, where the stylus picks it up from both ends via the platter and backwards up thru the arm mount. I think that outer rim driven platters are more prone to this because of the larger diameter platter make the distance from the bearing larger (horizontally).

To combat this effect, I have gone the other direction by super connecting the motor to a massive plate, super-loaded with plasticaly. The plate (in theory) takes the energy away from the motor thru the mechanically conductive plate and gets turned into heat via the plasticlay. VPI has done the same thing with the same reasoning as the massive dual motor/flywheel drive of the TNT series would suggest.
The round belt may also offer some mechanical advantages over a flat belt by its nature of design, being naturally damping to some degree. The flat belt can act like a guitar string picking up vibrations and thus transferring them to what ever is connected. The VPI round belt is hollow (or at least it feels like it is) and also has less contact area.

So the motor really has 2 ways to get at your table. Thru the mechanical coupling of the motor to the table by the motor's support means, and that could even be a SAMA as it can send vibrations to anything sitting next to it, and secondly, thru belt energy.

The 2 obvious solutions are to isolate the motor (or assembly) mechanically from the table and get the vibration off of the belt. There are many ways to do it. I'm not sure I've come up with all of the answers, either, but I think this may have an impact on destroying the vinyl illusion.

My goal is to have a selection end and go into total black silence. We are all sick bastards!  aa

[Wayner]

Today I am working on my SAMM (stand alone motor mount) for my turntable project (see my table blog). I have made a few discoveries that I think are worth mentioning here. First I noticed that the belt was riding funny in the pulley and noticed, my table was not as level as I had thought (I really hadn't got around to do any fine tuning yet). This was making a funny noise between the belt and pulley as the bottom edge of the belt was riding on the bottom lip of the pulley.

The other thing that I found interesting was in regards to a post on this thread about taking your finger and gently pushing against the belt. Well, I did that and really felt the motor vibrations. That was on the leading edge of the belt drive, right off the motor pulley. I noticed the belt was fairly calm on the back side (going into the motor pulley). That means the platter rim took out all of the energy of the belt. For some really stupid urge, I put a twist in the belt. Vibration is gone. This may be a great tweak for  belt drive owners. I'm not sure what it will do to the belts life span (shorten it I'll bet), but the twisting belt is too busy twisting to worry about motor vibrations. Interesting.

Wayner

[BobM]

Well Gary lived up to his promise and sent me some of the threads that he has tried out, and yes, I did a shoot out. Before I begin describing the process and what I heard, I have a few disclaimers ...

1st - I don't believe I'm going to say all of what I'm going to say, but I heard what I heard.
2nd - don't do this unless you have a speed controller with easily repeatable settings, and don't use string at all unless you have a speed controller because the pitch will be far, far off from the belt due to the diameter of the string.
3rd - the thread needs to be pretty tight to make the platter spin consistently, so you may need to tie several loops before you get the tension just right.

Gary sent me 3 threads, a poly cotton (which I didn't try yet because there's only so much aspirin in the bottle, if you know what I mean), a 100% grey Silk, and a spiffy red Rayon. I used a great record primarily for these comparisons: Michael Hedges "Strings of Steel". If you don't have this on vinyl you need to get it. Great playing, a very interesting technique combining strumming, finger picking, tapping and harmonics. It's got long held notes (for speed stability tests), prickly finger picking and harmonics (for leading edge transient response), big dynamics and both low and high notes for tonality, and excellent spacial queues. Just a great and impressive record all around.

what I heard ...

VPI rubber belt - OK sounding as usual, but a little rough in places like there's a small wobble somewhere.

VPI rubber belt with something pushing against the belt where it comes off the spindle to absorb those vibrations before they hit the platter - much better, smoother without that wobble. yes, this makes a nice improvement.

silk thread - the spacial queues are better, no wobble, the sound is a bit more organic, this is an improvement over the rubber, but subtle

rayon thread - WTF, why is there a difference between this and the silk thread? The leading edge transients are more sharply defined. There's just more excitement here. Spacial queues are better too, no wobble.

So the thread wins in this short test. More listening will be needed over time, but so far I am impressed with the results I heard, although they are subtle and not huge in nature, they are there. We'll see if it changes over time like it did when I first tried this a few years ago (using poly/cotton thread, which is why I didn't try the one you sent me Gary. My original thread stretched over time - probably the cotton component).

I liked the red rayon thread best in my system. This may change over time. The silk thread was a bit more organic overall so that could prove more enjoyable later on with more and different music playing. We'll see. I think Gary is also using the rayon thread now, so maybe you could tell us what you heard Gary.

Enjoy,
Bob

[lazydays]

Well Gary lived up to his promise and sent me some of the threads that he has tried out, and yes, I did a shoot out. Before I begin describing the process and what I heard, I have a few disclaimers ...

1st - I don't believe I'm going to say all of what I'm going to say, but I heard what I heard.
2nd - don't do this unless you have a speed controller with easily repeatable settings, and don't use string at all unless you have a speed controller because the pitch will be far, far off from the belt due to the diameter of the string.
3rd - the thread needs to be pretty tight to make the platter spin consistently, so you may need to tie several loops before you get the tension just right.

Gary sent me 3 threads, a poly cotton (which I didn't try yet because there's only so much aspirin in the bottle, if you know what I mean), a 100% grey Silk, and a spiffy red Rayon. I used a great record primarily for these comparisons: Michael Hedges "Strings of Steel". If you don't have this on vinyl you need to get it. Great playing, a very interesting technique combining strumming, finger picking, tapping and harmonics. It's got long held notes (for speed stability tests), prickly finger picking and harmonics (for leading edge transient response), big dynamics and both low and high notes for tonality, and excellent spacial queues. Just a great and impressive record all around.

what I heard ...

VPI rubber belt - OK sounding as usual, but a little rough in places like there's a small wobble somewhere.

VPI rubber belt with something pushing against the belt where it comes off the spindle to absorb those vibrations before they hit the platter - much better, smoother without that wobble. yes, this makes a nice improvement.

silk thread - the spacial queues are better, no wobble, the sound is a bit more organic, this is an improvement over the rubber, but subtle

rayon thread - WTF, why is there a difference between this and the silk thread? The leading edge transients are more sharply defined. There's just more excitement here. Spacial queues are better too, no wobble.

So the thread wins in this short test. More listening will be needed over time, but so far I am impressed with the results I heard, although they are subtle and not huge in nature, they are there. We'll see if it changes over time like it did when I first tried this a few years ago (using poly/cotton thread, which is why I didn't try the one you sent me Gary. My original thread stretched over time - probably the cotton component).

I liked the red rayon thread best in my system. This may change over time. The silk thread was a bit more organic overall so that could prove more enjoyable later on with more and different music playing. We'll see. I think Gary is also using the rayon thread now, so maybe you could tell us what you heard Gary.

Enjoy,
Bob

well Bob I see that my ears were not telling me lies again. I made a switch to the red Rayon (it won't stretch like silk), and thought I heard something similar. Maybe the music was a little more open in the upper mids and highs. Have not tried the new silk yet, but will (it's kinda fragile). My tables are set up for string drives from the factory, so the pitch comes out very close. The fingernail test while playing loud music was the best I've encountered yet (I introduced my kids to The Plastic Ono Band the other night!). Now I have another experiment in the works; assuming I can find the thread(s). I'm now wanting to play with different diameters of thread, but keeping with the Rayon.
    These thread experiments are cheap. I bought three spools the otherday for $3.51 taxes and all. If it won't work; I'll use it on my flytying bench. Acoustic Signature ships their tables with cotten thread of the same diameter as the red stuff, but Opera uses monofilment fishing line of about 4lb. test (really junk). The Opera's motor pulley has a fairly narrow groove that is a problem with large knots, and it's metal. I think plastic or nylon pulleys have a better sound. (I know this is unscientific).
    And being as the subject has moved to my being a "cheapskate"; I have another series of experiments to tackle. I'm going to try to isolate my Denon cartridge from the tonearm as I also think it's an antenna picking up small amounts of feed back. can I prove it? Not really, but I still suspect it's there.
gary


What I hear?
well I find the thread (red) is a touch brighter and more open sounding. Knot strength is way better than the others. A small knot is critical and the red is best. On the Opera the red was a clear winner by a good distance, but on the Final Tool the differences are very small. The Final Tool is a much better table though. One thing you should be in the habit of doing with a thread drive is to give the platter a boost when turning it on. I kept yur mailing address on file as I constantly experiment, and when I find something better you'll get a sample in the mail. Lastly the Rayon stuff has over a hundred hours on it with no signs of fatigue.
glt

[BobM]

Strange how these little changes seem to make a difference to our ears. There must/may be some scientific explaination, but damned if I know what it is without using wild supposition. Still, the medium of vinyl is pretty fragile and sensitive to pick up on this and show the difference. Maybe that's why it's so much fun to a tweaker like myself.

Also, I just love the inexpensive experiments that turn out to be better overall.

Here' s another thought to try out on your cartridge isolation experiment. Go to the EAR Isodamp site and request a sample of the product. They will send you several thicknesses for free. Use a small piece of this between cartridge and headshell and let me know what you think.

Bob (laughing my evil laugh)

[lazydays]

Strange how these little changes seem to make a difference to our ears. There must/may be some scientific explaination, but damned if I know what it is without using wild supposition. Still, the medium of vinyl is pretty fragile and sensitive to pick up on this and show the difference. Maybe that's why it's so much fun to a tweaker like myself.

Also, I just love the inexpensive experiments that turn out to be better overall.

Here' s another thought to try out on your cartridge isolation experiment. Go to the EAR Isodamp site and request a sample of the product. They will send you several thicknesses for free. Use a small piece of this between cartridge and headshell and let me know what you think.

Bob (laughing my evil laugh)

Bob,
that's the direction I'm going in with regards to the cartridge isolation to the tonearm. I was actually looking at balsa wood and a couple rubber compounds. I also read a story about a guy who took a crappy tonearm, and rewired it. Then somehow filled the tube with foam. Said it was more ridgid and more resistence to feedback.
gary

[TheChairGuy]

Here' s another thought to try out on your cartridge isolation experiment. Go to the EAR Isodamp site and request a sample of the product. They will send you several thicknesses for free. Use a small piece of this between cartridge and headshell and let me know what you think.

Bob (laughing my evil laugh)

I've done that....no betterment as far as I could discern.

With my Grado's, a squidge of plast-i-clay (Plast-i-Lator!) between headshell and cartridge body worked quite well....not certain if it damped the Grado body or headshell, or provided extra weight at the cartridge that the Grado likes.  But, the positive effect was noted and helpful.

I have tried the EAR 0.625" thick Isodamp material...purchased thru Michael Percy Audio.

John

[doug s.]

...The other thing that I found interesting was in regards to a post on this thread about taking your finger and gently pushing against the belt. Well, I did that and really felt the motor vibrations. That was on the leading edge of the belt drive, right off the motor pulley. I noticed the belt was fairly calm on the back side (going into the motor pulley). That means the platter rim took out all of the energy of the belt. For some really stupid urge, I put a twist in the belt. Vibration is gone. This may be a great tweak for  belt drive owners. I'm not sure what it will do to the belts life span (shorten it I'll bet), but the twisting belt is too busy twisting to worry about motor vibrations. Interesting...

i always ran my c&j walker cj-55 w/its belt like this.  yust seemed like the right thing to do - i had read somewhere years ao that this would smooth out any wibrations.  i can't say it made any audible difference, but i felt good doing it.     no worries about belt wear - there were no issues here.  i would try it w/my present oracle delphi, but it's too difficult to get at the belt to do it, the way the platter/subchassis/pulley-wheel is configured.  and, w/my present origin-live dc motor kit, wibrations isn't an issue anyways.

doug s.

[BobM]

Well, some more playing over the last couople of days. Here's the findings

I had a few pieces of EAR Isodamp in my parts box. One was very thin and the other was about 1/4" thick. I found that a little of this goes a long way. I cut the thin piece and used it around the bearing and put the thick piece around the tonearm, both glued to the bottom of the plinth with rubber cement. Well, that turned out to be a bit overdamped. Taking the thick piece off gave me a nicer sound. The thick piece was robbing the TT of life and energy and excitement. It really is a balancing act. Nice to be able to go back and forth and experiment.

Now for the thread. With the overdamped plinth, the red Rayon thread sounded better. More detail and more distinct. The grey silk thread was more organic, but lacking in life. Now with the plinth damping reduced the Rayon thread sounds too much like digital. The grey silk thread is better overall - more analogue and organic with just the right amount of everything, and not digital at all.

Interesting findings overall. I still like the thread better than the rubber VPI ring. If you can, you should try it for yourself.

Enjoy,
Bob

[lazydays]

Well, some more playing over the last couople of days. Here's the findings

I had a few pieces of EAR Isodamp in my parts box. One was very thin and the other was about 1/4" thick. I found that a little of this goes a long way. I cut the thin piece and used it around the bearing and put the thick piece around the tonearm, both glued to the bottom of the plinth with rubber cement. Well, that turned out to be a bit overdamped. Taking the thick piece off gave me a nicer sound. The thick piece was robbing the TT of life and energy and excitement. It really is a balancing act. Nice to be able to go back and forth and experiment.

Now for the thread. With the overdamped plinth, the red Rayon thread sounded better. More detail and more distinct. The grey silk thread was more organic, but lacking in life. Now with the plinth damping reduced the Rayon thread sounds too much like digital. The grey silk thread is better overall - more analogue and organic with just the right amount of everything, and not digital at all.

Interesting findings overall. I still like the thread better than the rubber VPI ring. If you can, you should try it for yourself.

Enjoy,
Bob

well at my house we're exploring the virtues on motor isolation again as I found a major problem with the Sorbathane and the weight of the motor. All's not lost there, but the Sorbathane itself was just too soft. So Sunday I visited some hardware store looking for rubber, and did find a couple of interesting pieces to experiment with. Also dropped by the local hobby shop and bought a 1/8th" thick piece of birch plywood. But looking at what I have, I think I need a couple more pieces of the rubber and another piece of the plywood. I want rubber on the very bottom to keep it in place, but want it with several layers.
gary

[ricmon]

Well, some more playing over the last couople of days. Here's the findings

I had a few pieces of EAR Isodamp in my parts box. One was very thin and the other was about 1/4" thick. I found that a little of this goes a long way. I cut the thin piece and used it around the bearing and put the thick piece around the tonearm, both glued to the bottom of the plinth with rubber cement. Well, that turned out to be a bit overdamped. Taking the thick piece off gave me a nicer sound. The thick piece was robbing the TT of life and energy and excitement. It really is a balancing act. Nice to be able to go back and forth and experiment.

Now for the thread. With the overdamped plinth, the red Rayon thread sounded better. More detail and more distinct. The grey silk thread was more organic, but lacking in life. Now with the plinth damping reduced the Rayon thread sounds too much like digital. The grey silk thread is better overall - more analogue and organic with just the right amount of everything, and not digital at all.

Interesting findings overall. I still like the thread better than the rubber VPI ring. If you can, you should try it for yourself.

Enjoy,
Bob

well at my house we're exploring the virtues on motor isolation again as I found a major problem with the Sorbathane and the weight of the motor. All's not lost there, but the Sorbathane itself was just too soft. So Sunday I visited some hardware store looking for rubber, and did find a couple of interesting pieces to experiment with. Also dropped by the local hobby shop and bought a 1/8th" thick piece of birch plywood. But looking at what I have, I think I need a couple more pieces of the rubber and another piece of the plywood. I want rubber on the very bottom to keep it in place, but want it with several layers.
gary

I put 3 metal cones under my motor and it made quite a nice improvement to the sound.  If you have the clearance for such a tweak you should give it a try.  Also I cant say it enough that my monster TT stand is so effective at isolating my TT that all but the most violent of jumping up and down near my TT does nothing to up set it.  Thus the level of performance I'm getting out my rig is just stunning.  No bass rumble or subsonic feed back, I can play my system at hi levels, which I regularly do and just pure vinyl sound.....smooth, dynamic and lush.............just amazing what these 2 tweak have done.  As a matter of fact my TT stand is so effective I been thinking of marketing it.

Ric

[Wayner]

Building my ARMOD, I had my theory reinforced that motors are vibration maniacs. If you try to isolate them on gel or something like that, they will send all of their pent up energy down the belt. When I built my SAMM (Stand Alone Motor Mount), made out of solid oak, I really affixed the motor to the oak box. The energy went out of the motor and into the wood and is as quite as one could ever hope for. It needs to be loaded with mass or have a way to transmit its energy out (I do like the cone idea, ricmon). Energy can't be created or destroyed, but it can be changed in form (usually to heat). That is what the cones do, the oak box that I made and platiclay that I used to couple the motor to the box (along with 4 #10 screws) do the same thing.

Wayner

[lazydays]

well I think I'm onto something by chance. As you'll recall I had problems with the Sorbathane isolation dampener I rigged up for the motor (weighs about eight pounds by itself). I came upon a brand new scheme that uses a couple pieces of rubber gasket material sandwiched between slabs of 1/8th" birch plywood. The gasket material cost $1.32 at Lowes in the plumbing department, and a 6" x 12" piece of the plywood was $4.19 at the local hobby shop. So with this idea in mind and an outlay of less than $7.00 I knew I was on the cheap side of town. But this grand idea never came about as I had to try and even cheaper idea I happened to see laying around. I used old CD-R's that I had laying around! Bought two more pieces of rubber and traced the outline of the CD's on the 1/8" thick rubber (they also have it in 1/16" thick pieces), and cut it out with a pair of scissors. Next step was to glue the CD to a slab of rubber, and then add another CD. In the end I had four slabs of rubber and four CD's. String feels almost as good as the Sorbathane matte.
    This is what I heard right away: piano has more definition, and seems to be slightly more transparent. Has the airey atmosphere that you get from a good Stienway. Upright bass has the correct resonation that I expect from a $100K bass. Can't tell you much more as Duke and Ray Brown were all there was on the LP, but I just had to get up here and spread the news (all $7.00 worth!). I think I really ready for silk thread now! But maybe with a new "twist to it"
gary