Panasonic SA XRS Digital amplifier/HT Receiver

someidiot · « **Reply #80 on:** 30 Oct 2003, 05:06 am »

Quote from: ABEX

C\NETS Review of the unit is rather intresting. Wondering about the last thing which is said in it. Is it the power rating they are looking at?

What are the Chips that are incorperated into the unit also?

Just thinkin ...

Abex,

Senor Guttenberg clearly isn't aware of how these gems mature over a period of time; and who could blame him? You have to visit this thread to get an idea of just how good they actually become (thx Scotty for starting this one).

Here's a couple of links to the primary components in the XR series:

the PWM controller: http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tas5026a.pdf
the digital amp: http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tas5182.pdf

BTW, I tried one of these after waiting too long for a full handful of those "real soon now" amps that you're interested in. It was this thread that turned me onto it, and for the money it was a no brainer to try out.

The upshot? Well, now I won't be buying multiple monoblocks any time soon! Not even a couple of ZR1000's

ABEX · « **Reply #81 on:** 30 Oct 2003, 07:08 am »

SI:
Like the handle BTW, I have been reading through the thread and find it rather intresting. I have come to the same conclusion based on a price to performance aspect. The thing that really is intresting is what Clyde had to say on pg.3 when comparing it to the EAR amp which I have heard good things about.

I have been intrested in the Digital Amp thing,but I have been less than impressed with a few of the offering's thus far. I have talked to a few tripath Chip observer's which were not impressed with that particular chip.

If those here have able to do associated test with the like's of EAR and ML who am I to judge!

I will work on gathering more info before purchasing just to get aquinted and sell off some equiptment in order to get my HT setup right.

I like the idea of having a straight Digital line instead of going back and forth thereby cutting out processes that would hamper the playback.

Never thought I would consider getting another reciever in my life which is a scary thought after owning seperates for more than 15yrs.. People that know me will ask if I have cracked up,if I need a good source of material."Are you listening to KISS now too LG?"

I can hear it now!

Later!

ABEX · « **Reply #82 on:** 30 Oct 2003, 07:22 am »

Scotty:To answer your Q about what equiptment I plan on replaceing.

I have a Lexicon CP-3Pro for a SS processor being feed by a set of B&K amps. One is a Modified ST0202 for the front channels and a 5/ch. B&K which is used for the CC and SS channels.
Digital sources I have are a Phillips CD-80 used as a Transport. I have a Samsung HDTV Monitor. I also own a MENSA ART DAC which I would like to know what setup would sound best using the unit?
I have a generic DVD player.

I have all modified N.E.A.R. speakers which can handle almost any power thrown at them. They go down to about 5.5ohms which makes them easier to drive then the older versions of NEAR speakers.They are relitively efficient.

I am primarily concerned with the 2ch. playback as I have alot of Redbook CD's(900). I also have a FT Audio Passive Controller which allows me to By-Pass the Lexicon thereby not screwing with my 2\Ch. system.

Another feature I like is the fact that I would be downsizing. I am trying to get rid of the big boxes. Would be good to get rid of a few IC's also.

The Panny does have my attention I will say that much.

ABEX

peakrchau · « **Reply #83 on:** 30 Oct 2003, 02:18 pm »

Quote from: JLM

The August Newform Research newsletter uses the Panny 45 in stereo bi-amping mode by using a Behringer DEQ2496 Ultra Curve as an active crossover/equalizer between the source and the Panny.

The downside appears to be that the Behringer requires analog input/output.

Actually, the Behringer is digital in and analog out...as John asserts in this repost of his post.

Quote from: John Meyer of Newform wrote

Caveats

OK, we have been preaching the advent of the complete digital chain. This isn’t completely digital all the way. There is one section of AD/DA as the Behringer only outputs analog and the Panasonic only takes analog for its multi channel inputs.

I think even calling the path from the analog in the mentioned AD/DA path is a bit of a misnomer by John...it is what a class D amp does...create a PWM output from an analog input. The interesting thing here is that the SACD inputs are used as 2 sets of L+R inputs. One for the low pass filtered (by Behringer from digital in) high frequency information and one for the high pass filter bass information (also by Behringer from same digital in) . These are fed directly to Newform's tweeter and bass unit, respectively. From John's enthusiasm, it means that the SACD input path is very clean.
This might be the silver lining of SACD...it makes bi-amping a practical reality using a HT receiver supporting SACD.

Other users have also found that the DA converter in the XR45 is pretty good. I'm fairly sure that the intermediate analog output of the XR45 DAC goes to the the same gaining analog stage shared with the SACD inputs as we need to provide volume control from a shared point.

People reporting better results with the digital inputs are (I think) taking advantage of the XR45 better DAC.
For those using external DACs with worse results...Could someone clarify what inputs are used ? Are they different from the SACD inputs ?
If different from SACD, these inputs could be less clean than the SACD inputs ?
Question: Are the people using extenal DACs doing so via the SACD inputs...are shorting plugs used on the unused SACD inputs (C, rear left and rear right) in two channel mode ?

The "party mode" allows takes us to take the concept of biwring to another level by giving each set of wires its set of binding posts with its own set of amplifiers (instead of sharing them like in most setups).

smargo · « **Reply #84 on:** 30 Oct 2003, 02:35 pm »

Quote from: clyde

Scotty,

My reference amp is an engineering evaluation unit of the ICEpower digital amp technology that is the same as used in the $3000 Danish eAR amp frequently mentioned in this forum. Supposedly the eAR has been tweeked with additional filtering and capacitance in the power supply. To my ears, ICEpower is the best amp I have heard and I've listened to a bunch of them.

In the bass and midrange area the XR25 is very competitive. Dynamics are outstanding, particularly with digital inputs. The tre ...

Clyde:

Are you still enjoying the panny - if yes or not please chime in - let us know

ABEX · « **Reply #85 on:** 30 Oct 2003, 04:59 pm »

CLEAN!

That is the thing I noticed most of all in the limited presentation I heard last night at CC was that it sounded clean. About the only question I want to address is it's dynamics capability. That can only be done within my on system with my particular speakre system.

Shall be intresting to hear.

Later!

clyde · « **Reply #86 on:** 30 Oct 2003, 05:16 pm »

I have returned the XR25 pending an upgrade to an XR45, which is not currently available from local dealers.

Reasons to upgrade to XR45:

1. better power supply.
2. 2nd zone, which provides pre-out functionality, missing from both XR25 and XR45.
3. on-screen setup, a major convenience.
4. DTS 96/24. When this format is fully deployed, this could largely replace DVD-A, which does not allow direct digital connection.
5. an additional digital input.

I had one problem with the XR25 that I was not able to resolve before returning the unit. When connected to a Comcast HDTV STB, there was a constant hiss on digital audio, both over coax and optical connections. It did not seem to be an STB problem, because the hiss level did not vary with the volume control on the XR25. Has anyone else seen this problem?

_scotty_ · « **Reply #87 on:** 30 Oct 2003, 05:53 pm »

peakrchau, According to the owners manual the XR25/45 controls the volume by directly varying the power amp rail voltage it does not
operate on the signal in the analogue or digital domain before it reaches the power amplifier.

clyde, I hope the XR45 works better with the Comcast unit.

Cens · « **Reply #88 on:** 30 Oct 2003, 09:32 pm »

I'm pretty sure after reading this thread that I can hook up my DVD/CD player directly into the XR45 via a coax cable for CD audio, but will the audio tracks of a DVD movie also play via that output?

Regards,

Chris

--Can you tell I'm not an HT expert? --

ABEX · « **Reply #89 on:** 31 Oct 2003, 02:44 am »

What is the EARs unit's Retail price. If looking to an entry level what has been said about your testing of the EAR to Panny I would have to opt for the Panny at this stage.

I will be getting the Panny XR45 unit in order to use as my Digital reference till I see something else of value.

I waited for the successful implementation of the new TI chip and am glad that Panasonic was the ones to do it first. Spectron and EAR are out of my range,but if you can swing for them I guess I would probably opt for them. Depending on other issues.

I want to know more about the chip game and the amps that are implementing them.

One thing is certain and that is the Digital amp revolution is just beginning and it won't be long before they over take analog as the common amp being used for the home market. Analog amps are going to go the way which TT's went and they shall be specialty units with extravagant pricing. Not that it's going to be a bad thing because as what happens when new tech comes on line there is a surge in perfection of the application.

JMO

_scotty_ · « **Reply #90 on:** 31 Oct 2003, 03:24 am »

I went to the eAR website and I couldn't find an entry level amp on the site anymore. He had some for something like $1000 to $1500, these were analogue input only. I think he is saving the direct digital input for his statement products. If you go over to the Market square circle you could probably get direct answers to your questions.

ABEX · « **Reply #91 on:** 31 Oct 2003, 08:58 am »

A few questions so I know what to buy and how to hook this up.

1.Where do I get the PC and whatever adaptor I need for this unit .

2.I have 2 digital sources
A. I use a Phillips CD-80 Transport that is used with a MENSA DAC. Do I use the internal DAC of the Panny and sell the MENSA?
B.I use a generic DVD Player for playing Movies

How do I go about hooking these units up?

I will be purchasing the 45 unit. Thanks for answering!

ABEX · « **Reply #92 on:** 31 Oct 2003, 09:46 am »

I looked at the other post concerning the PC and Mase's use of the SN DAC.I guess it sounds better using the unit Direct. So if all goes well I should sell the MENSA DAC and use the Direst setting.

I think also I read that the 45 unit has 2 COAX Inputs? Am I wrong about that,wondering how to setup the DVD player?

These NRG Outlet's I never had to deal with.Look foriegn to me.I have plenty of 3 prong cable I can use along with WATT IEC Connectors,do they just sell the other ones singlularly? If so does anyone know where?

TIA

_scotty_ · « **Reply #93 on:** 31 Oct 2003, 01:27 pm »

ABEX, Here is the link for an adapter from page 6 in this thread, http://www.takefiveaudio.com/c8_to_iec_adapter.htm
Here is the link to the PDF owners manual Doc from page 3 of this thread http://media-server.amazon.com/media/mole/MANUAL000017536.pdf
your connection questions should be answered by the the owners manual.
I would definitely compare your transport directly into the XR45 to the transport feeding your Mensa dac into the analogue inputs. I would also play with different power cords on the transport and the XR45. The type of digital cable from the transport to the XR45 should also be played around with to find the best combination. Different speaker cables than you are using now might also sound better with the digital power amp in the receiver. You will definitely need some locking banana plugs for the front channels and pin type terminations or bare wire for rear channels. Everything is very close together on the back panel, be sure to avoid potential shorts when wiring up the loudspeakers. Have fun, Scotty

ABEX · « **Reply #94 on:** 31 Oct 2003, 07:45 pm »

Are you saying the Speaker connectors are using RCA Plugs for the front spkrs.? I will have to modify that unless you can use Bare Wire. I have plenty of Wire I can use along with many types of Cable and RCA's.

Will look at the Manual.Thx!

_scotty_ · « **Reply #95 on:** 31 Oct 2003, 08:28 pm »

The front spkrs are are connected via a binding post that accepts bare wire or bananas but not spades.

Zero · « **Reply #96 on:** 31 Oct 2003, 08:38 pm »

How does this unit handle multi-channel formats? It might have been mentioned earlier, and I just failed to see it.

I will need something for the PC rig, and this could very well be an excellent solution. If the Panny will drive all channels absolutely equal *descretely*, that would be immensly cool

Sean

ABEX · « **Reply #97 on:** 31 Oct 2003, 09:52 pm »

I DL'd the Manual and it looks like it will work fine for all my equiptment.

I see there is a place called ABE's of Maine that sells the units for $300. They use to be here at Old Orchard Beach and moved to

Brooklyn,N.Y. .Wonder why they kept the Maine association.

Was going to selloff some of my equiptment ,but I think I shall just get some cables sold before I buy the unit.

OTA Cable anyone?

soundboy · « **Reply #98 on:** 31 Oct 2003, 09:53 pm »

Dumb question here....

How does the XR25/45 handle incoming analog signals? If I configure the input as "Analog", will the XR25/45 do an analog>>digital>>analog conversion between the signal is output to the speakers? If it does, do it sound "transparent"??

I am very interested in these units for 2 channel application, with the possibility of going multi-channel in the future.

someidiot · « **Reply #99 on:** 31 Oct 2003, 10:57 pm »

A handful of answers:

Quote from: soundboy

Dumb question here....

How does the XR25/45 handle incoming analog signals? If I configure the input as "Analog", will the XR25/45 do an analog>>digital>>analog conversion between the signal is output to the speakers? If it does, do it sound "transparent"??

I am very interested in these units for 2 channel application, with the possibility of going multi-channel in the future.

The beauty of the XR series is unveiled when using the digital inputs, where the only conversion made throughout the entire signal chain is right at the end where the speakers are driven.

As one should expect at this price level, you are not purchasing Burr Brown or equivalent converters (for those analogue inputs). As Scotty aptly described early-on in this thread, the analogue inputs are "merely good". The upshot is that you'll likely get more 'transparency' with a digital input. The XR will show up deficiencies in the CD mastering/production quality, and in the speakers themselves. IMO, those will affect your sound more than the XR itself (when using digital inputs).

Quote from: A6M-ZERO

How does this unit handle multi-channel formats? It might have been mentioned earlier, and I just failed to see it.

I will need something for the PC rig, and this could very well be an excellent solution.

The XR series has most of the latest alphabet soup vis-a-vis processing if that's what you mean. Coax and TosLink (lightpipe) inputs are provided. The Panny is good enough to highlight any weak link in your audio chain, so try to ensure you have really good speakers for that PC rig. Otherwise, you're certainly not leveraging its abilities.

Quote from: Cens

I'm pretty sure after reading this thread that I can hook up my DVD/CD player directly into the XR45 via a coax cable for CD audio, but will the audio tracks of a DVD movie also play via that output?

Sure Cens! DVD-Movie multichannel audio will transmit through the same connection. As an aside, note that DVD-A's and SACD's are limited to analogue outputs for multi-channel, so one has to use the Panny analogue inputs for those instead. However, hi-res DTS encoded audio should also playback through the digital connection. Several knowledgable folks in this thread recommend spending the extra dosh for a quality digital IC, as well as springing for a much better AC cable. My experience with this amp also bears that out.

[Edit]: Note that the digital inputs will lock onto 96/24, and there's a vague hint in the manual that the XR45 will lock to 192/24 (the TI chipset appears capable of that).

Quote from: peakrchau

People reporting better results with the digital inputs are (I think) taking advantage of the XR45 better DAC.

Again, the beauty of the XR series lies in its fully digital signal path, all the way from source through amplification. The only analogue part is at the speaker outputs. Naturally the XR has analogue inputs also so, if you prefer, you may invoke an A/D conversion that way.

Note to all the above: if you haven't done so already, please read the first couple of pages of this thread regarding the XR audio quality ... it does require a break-in period.