[soundboy]

So what happens with DVD-A or SACD, which only output in analog?  If the analog 5.1 inputs on the XR is not quite the level of its digital inputs, is it still pretty good?

[Zero]

Someidiot,

Thanks for the reply buddy!  If your an idiot, what does that make me? hah

Now its just a matter of checking to see if my Turtle Beach Santa Cruz sound-card sports a digital out.  I hope so.

As for the speakers, its undecided yet.  I cant go too extreme with it, so I will probably go with either Norh 4.0, Totem's, Polk RTi6's. Paradigm Titan's.  

Something simple.

[someidiot]

So what happens with DVD-A or SACD, which only output in analog?  If the analog 5.1 inputs on the XR is not quite the level of its digital inputs, is it still pretty good?

Soundboy; the digital inputs provide an arguably ideal signal path for this type of design, so it's hard for an ADC circuit to compete within a reasonable price range (or perhaps any price range).

It has been pointed out that one (you) is the sole judge of what sounds good to oneself, so perhaps you might pop down to the local CC or BB and check it out personally? Nobody is saying the analogue inputs are dodgy, cheap, muddy, thin (pick your adjective) because they're not; they're just not quite as good as the 'ideal' path. I'd like to give you a more useful answer, but that would be overtly subjective.

[Edit:] It's vaguely amusing to think that six reasonable-quality ICs for hooking up a SACD player would cost more than an XR25 itself ... perhaps more amusing is that six of SW's 12-gauge DIY cables (short ones) would likely be sufficient to 'float' a small SACD/DVD-A player in mid-air  

Those pursuing SACD Utopia should certainly research the new Sony all-in-one players (500 or 700 models, using the S-Master digital amps). The industry has to get past the whole DRM growth pain before we see convenient digital hookups for 'sensitive' material.

[_scotty_]

Ditto, The reason I was not more enthusiastic about the analogue inputs is that most people do not have a Stan Warren modded SACD 1000 to feed into the analogue stage.  For most people the digital input would yield
a higher resolution result.  In my system the two inputs were very close.
The digital input was slightly sharper on its transient edges, but the lower midrange wasn't quite as full. [ This is a result in my system with this transport which is not state of the art.] I also need to try a different powercord on the transport to see if that changes the harmonic balance.

                   Once again YMMV, Scotty

[ABEX]

The PC's are rather unusual on this reciever.I have some Carol Cable which I will try using it with a WATTS IEC Connector.

On Speaker Cables I use and sell Solid Core OTA cable that is similar to that which comes in 47Labs OTA Kit which sells for $700.   It will be intresting to hear what kind of sound I get when hooked up to this unit seeing that it only needs to be stripped back and either inserted in or wound around these binding post. I also use it for IC's.

It is a very fast and trnsparent cable which should mate really well with this receiver. If anyone is intrested in trying it write and I will send some for a free Eval.

[djklmnop]

Don't forget to pick this up if you've purchased the XR25.

http://www.panasonic.com/consumer_electronics/home_theater/promo_headphones.asp

Andy

[ABEX]

Wonder why they do not offer them with the 45 model?

[smargo]

The digital input was slightly sharper on its transient edges, but the lower midrange wasn't quite as full. [ This is a result in my system with this transport which is not state of the art.] I also need to try a different powercord on the transport to see if that changes the harmonic balance.

So Scotty, I'm surmizing that you think the panny isn't that great. It seems that dmason is the only one on this whole post that really likes it, but he likes everything, so how do you go by what he says. He raved about the sony and then secretly sold it without telling us. He finally admitted it. Of course the sony digital thread died about 3 weeks ago. I'm sure everyone is going to run out and buy the new sony's with the master pro hyped up crap and rave  about them for about 2 weeks and then return them after a month. And I give this thread about another week. The tone of your posts has gone from "amazing sound"  to "I"m not sure", except for the bass. I just don't think digital amps are really there yet. And we should not give reviews about a product until one month has elapsed no matter how great a unit sounds after 1 day. Probably have to spend about $4000 grand on the tact or the bel canto revised to approach digital we like. Of couse we can all put $2000 worth of mods on the panny. But then aren't we back to square one again.

Audiophiles first love and and then hate their equipment. Why do you think we sell everything after 8 months and start anew.

Smargo

[ABEX]

Madisound has a thread concerning this unt.

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/discuss.cgi?read=276178

I do not know weather it was mentioned either about Newform Spkr. Co. endorsing this unit. That I think is pretty wild!

MEDIUM ROOM, STEREO OR HOME THEATER FRONT END (14' x 20' OR SMALLER)

We saw and heard the prototype of this Panasonic/TI technology 4 years ago in a private showing by the TI team in a Las Vegas hotel room at CES. The nine pound 3" high, mid-fi priced XR45 gives no hint of being a high end product save its sound. The digital audio wave has now hit the beach. This is a killer package and represents the future of a changing home entertainment paradigm. Suitable for large rooms.

I guess there is still SOTA value for affordable prices.

[Dmason]

Nice tone there smargo; I didn't realize I was somehow obliged to post my every "audio decision" made. I sold the Sony because I had a buyer and because it otherwise would not have been used. And, because I buy and sell ALOT of audio stuff. I can afford to.  Do I still like the Sony? YES.

 I have made every attempt to qualify my opinions on these threads that it may help others. "To these ears," --there is the qualifier,-- these amps play music, and I know what real instruments sound like. Personally, I don't like your tone.

On the matter of digital amps, they are here and they are here to stay. If you read all of the posts, you would have noticed that my $760 Carver ZR1000 replaced a $6,000 Art Audio Jota SE tube amp, ten times the power for one tenth the price, and it STILL reminds me of a tube amp after a year and a half. I would say that is a rather compelling observation and endorsement of digital (or at least Tripath) amps.

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. I recommend you not involve yourself with this new stuff, --I for one would not want to be held responsible for any unhappiness it might cause you.

[ABEX]

"Probably have to spend about $4000 grand on the tact or the bel canto revised to approach digital we like. "

Geez,I hope that is not the case. These chips are not to expensive to produce and implement. I find it pretty hard to justify any Digital amp that sells over $1K when I know the cost of the parts. I bet they do not cost more than $150 in total, if that. The most expensive component I bet is the heatshinks and the fancy faceplates.

Where consumers will win is where mass market Cos. can get close to SOTA quality from implementing these inexpensive chips. These Digital amps were meant to be affordable to consumers I think not 4K $$ soakers like some Cos. might have you believe. Analog SOTA amps shall go the way of the TT's in my estimation and look at the lowest costing audiograde TT today whereas they use to be under $500 now they are alot more I think because they are a rarity to come by.

I think Dan has a point as to being able to buy and live with a piece and then sell it. He is able to afford more than I ,but if I could I would do what he is able to do. After having the prdts. he has been able to acquire and the time he has ,I believe he's  been able to decipher what works in particular setups and what might not. Finding synergy is a very important element in the path to achieving audio Nirvana.

JMO

[smargo]

Geez,I hope that is not the case. These chips are not to expensive to produce and implement. I find it pretty hard to justify any Digital amp that sells over $1K when I know the cost of the parts. I bet they do not cost more than $150 in total, if that. The most expensive component I bet is the heatshinks and the fancy faceplates.

Give me a break abex - ther are so many amps and speakers out there that use similar parts - some of them charge $4000 for them and some $500 - its really the implementation and the reputation of the company, the workmanship and some companies  use higher grade parts and  electronics than others, etc, it goes on and on.

Bet you would by a house that costs $500,000 even if you knew it only costs $50,000 to build. If you fell in love with it. Especially if the monthly payments you could afford.

[_scotty_]

smargo, You surmize 100% WRONG! The reason I didn't keep raving about how good the Panasonic receiver was in every post, was that I would have implied that it was the best thing I had ever heard and was perfect as well.  You have completely misunderstood my attempt at a realistic assessment of the receivers' performance. I certainly never meant to imply during the course of this thread that I didn't still like the XR25. The only thing I have consistently referred to is it's macro- dynamic perfomance capabilities.  I have very close to state of the art capabilities in this area in my big system and very few if any integrated amps or HT receivers are going to appear remotely adequate in this sort of comparison.
   I still think it is one of the best buys in audio today and one would be very hard pressed to equal its' imaging,or spatial re-creation ability at any price. It has spot on timbral and tonal accuracy with
an evenness to its power delivery spectrum that I have seldom heard equaled by any collection of seperate pieces.  For only $299.00 retail
this receiver is a no brainer for an audiophile on a budget. You would be hard pressed to equal its well rounded performance with a very carefully
spent $2500.00 applied to the purchase of separate components.
         Before you ask, yes I still have the XR25 and I am using in my wifes' system downstairs. Technically speaking she's using it. It still sounds great and it makes the 8in.woofer in my DIY speakers sound like a good 10in. woofer. There now I am repeating part of my post on page 8.
  To summarize my conclusions regarding this product, I feel that it  should be given serious consideration by anyone with up to $2,000 to spend on separate equipement. You can easily fall into a trap of mismatched components and cables that is never musically satisfying
when buying separates.  The XR25/45 is a superb way to avoid that problem and save a lot of money that can go towards a good transport and speakers that you otherwise couldn't fit into the budget.  This product
is the best way to spend $300.00 on this hobby that I know of, and if you purchase it from Best Buy or Circuit City,you have a 30 day home trail period. I don't think it gets any better than this.  I hope I have made myself clearer in this post.   Scotty

[someidiot]

So Scotty, I'm surmizing that you think the panny isn't that great.

Uhhh, where exactly did Scotty imply that?

It seems that dmason is the only one on this whole post that really likes it

There are only a few folk on this thread that currently own one. Given that you asked me personally to keep you updated (on page 4) you, apparently, are not one of them. Please count me alongside anyone else who feels this unit sounds great, and is an incredible bargain to boot.

Of course the sony digital thread died about 3 weeks ago

Hardly surprising given what happened in the last few pages. Rather than disseminate useful info about the units, it became a squabble over who had the biggest dick. I was thinking just yesterday that this thread has shown a remarkably spirit of comraderie, and was thankfully free of trolls.

And I give this thread about another week

Why are you in this thread smargo? Your post reeks of troll feces, so perhaps you have a bizarre agenda to destroy this thread? Just go away and let us deluded fools suffer in the agony of enjoying our purchases.

The tone of your posts has gone from "amazing sound" to "I"m not sure"

Yet another astounding insight into the mind of someone else. You ought to be on TV with that kind of talent!

I just don't think digital amps are really there yet

Given that you haven't yet heard that XR series, you are most certainly in a position to make that judgement; aren't you? Regardless, you are welcome to base your personal opinion on a non-factual basis. In the meantime others will simply enjoy the music.

Probably have to spend about $4000 grand on the tact or the bel canto

Awwwwww, poor b-a-a-a-a-b-y ... are you upset cos' mommy didn't buy diddums a Panny? Or are you just drunk and obnoxious, again? Just go away huh?

Now returning to our regular programme schedule ...

[ABEX]

smargo
Guess you do not know me well. If you bet that I'd buy a house for 500K that was built out of 50K of parts you'd lose.
 

On the other hand it might be I am buying the house for the land ,as on a scenic sight, then I would consider the home.

I will admit that what you perceive as far as audio is concerned about the fact that manfs. make amps out of the same type of stuff with better parts is true,but that is not what I am getting at here. What i am saying is that Digital amps are quite a different creature than analog counterparts. I would not and will not spend over $1K for any Digital amp. I would rather buy something that is NEAR SOTA than pay 10X the $$ for just slightly better performance. That is what I am getting at with Digital amps.

Digital amps will be alot closer in performance aspects than their analog counterparts by a fairly large margin I would bet.  

Regards

[ABEX]

I do not know weather this unit will be the end all to all my audio needs,I am most certain it will not be,but intrestingly enough the following was copied from the Newform Research Speaker site. I would imagine they have tried the amp in their own setup by now if they are suggesting it can be used. They also get to hear alot more equiptment than most of us that post here.

I have what I consider reference grade speakers and it shall be intresting to hear the unit here.

MEDIUM ROOM, STEREO OR HOME THEATER FRONT END (14' x 20' OR SMALLER)
We saw and heard the prototype of this Panasonic/TI technology 4 years ago in a private showing by the TI team in a Las Vegas hotel room at CES. The nine pound 3" high, mid-fi priced XR45 gives no hint of being a high end product save its sound. The digital audio wave has now hit the beach. This is a killer package and represents the future of a changing home entertainment paradigm. Suitable for large rooms.

[BenF]

A quote from the Madisound thread was intriguing to me. I would appreciate comments on it.

"I would interested in a Tripath, Equibit comparison. Looking at the TI website, control and power modules for their Equibit amps upper hz response is impedance dependent. 6 ohm provides a flat response, 4 ohms provides a gradual dip and 8 ohms a gradual increase in response. This continuously changing upper end hz response would be a bit of concern for me. Tripath response is not impedance dependent. Tripath also has a digital in module now so you could maintain a digital signal path right to the speakers if your other equipment promitted [sic] it."

If I have 8 ohm speakers, would I find the high frequencies more emphasized with the SA-XR45? Has anyone tried the unit on different speaker impedances and compared the sound in their setup? Could this effect be the same on the Sony AVD-C70ES which I found to be high frequency fatiguing?

Thanks in advance for your educational comments.

Ben

[Dmason]

It brings up an interesting question; Possibly one area of clinical testing where the bench-side results could lend themselves as to what extent response is affecting the sound, -as they apparently did not, in the listening tests, with the Tripath architecture.

I can tell you that I have tested it on very benign, efficient, 8 Ohm speakers as well as notoriously inefficient 4 Ohm speakers, and while I prefer the sound of the former, the latter seem not to produce any sort of high frequency induced fatigue  Both tweeters, (SS Revelator, Dynaudio Esotec,) are equally well known for their ability to sound extremely detailed without any stridency in those registers, and as such, make good test subjects. If I had to recklessly venture an opinion, I would dare say that, "to these ears," "on my equipment," "within my environment," the Panasonic has done very well with both examples, given the two radically different characteristics. I would say it is better off with a benign impedance modulus, but because macro-dynamics are not its strong suit, and because the latter speakers always sound best with a more-is-better approach to amp power. I would also say that the weak point of the unit is not response characteristics, or high frequency anomalies, but limitations brought on by the power supply being used.

My gut tells me that the TI chip amps can be monsters just with a better power supply alone, and that Tripath had better get into the direct digital game fast. Things are about to get really Interesting, Fun, and Positive for the sake of......The Music...... that is what this is all about, right? Fun?

[rglenny]

Someidiot asked me to weigh in with my comments on success of bi-amping using party mode. I have gone back and forth once or twice between bi-amping and just using front channels, and there definitely seems to be more dynamics and speed when bi-amped. I am using a carver knight shadow sub (small sub with tight and detailed bass) and have all speakers set to small with 100 hz cut off. Small/large settings definitely seem to be active in the party mode.

I am using this in a stereo set up, so center and rear surround are turned off.

One note when biamping in party mode. The way it is deisgned to work is anyway you face you get stereo sound., like this

Front Left                    Front Right



Surround  Right             Surround Left  

ie. the right rear speaker actually gets the left channel output, and vice versa.

So, to biamp you need to connect the surround left output to your right speaker and vice versa.

And my XR runs very cool. I don't play it loud (usually around -30db). Way cooler compared to my Denon 2800, and I have a pair of marantz monoblocks powering my front speakers, so it's not even driving them.

Hope this helps!

[Cens]

Sure Cens! DVD-Movie multichannel audio will transmit through the same connection. As an aside, note that DVD-A's and SACD's are limited to analogue outputs for multi-channel, so one has to use the Panny analogue inputs for those instead. However, hi-res DTS encoded audio should also playback through the digital connection. Several knowledgable folks in this thread recommend spending the extra dosh for a quality digital IC, as well as springing for a much better AC cable. My experience with this amp also bears that out.  
 
 [Edit]: Note that the digital inputs will lock onto 96/24, and there's a vague hint in the manual that the XR45 will lock to 192/24 (the TI chipset appears capable of that).

Someidiot,

Thanks.  I ordered an XR45 for $300.  Could make up a decent and simple 2-channel HT with my Pioneer 656a feeding the digital signal directly into the XR45.  Now if I can only make space for my speakers...

Regards,

Chris