[doug s.]

no - a good dac w/a decent (read: this does not mean it has to be expensive!) transport, will do at least 95% of what a $30k digital front end will do.  imo,of course!   

doug s.

  sooo,if i understand right,a good dac with any old transport will do 90% what a 30k dollar cdp will do???? That can't be right?? I like the % way of getting to the bottom of things as it's something we all can get straight.Not sure i have this right as i only dwell in single box players.

[opaqueice]

You could plug a $30 CD player into one of these, http://www.stereophile.com/features/1204poty/index7.html - which you can buy new for <$1,000.  That will get you as good a digital source as money can buy, regardless of cost (IMHO).

[doug s.]

except you do not have to spend even that much.  while i have never tried the dac1, i know of two folks who have, & returned it cuz it wasn't better than  their modded art di/o's...

doug s.

You could plug a $30 CD player into one of these, http://www.stereophile.com/features/1204poty/index7.html - which you can buy new for <$1,000.  That will get you as good a digital source as money can buy, regardless of cost (IMHO).

[2bigears]

   holy-moly what the heck is going on???? You pay 29000.00 for the last 5%????  This has to be wrong.... or i need to try a dac/transport system.I need to 'call a friend' on this one

[miklorsmith]

Don't look at it too simply, Pat.  The advice to avoid xx% thinking is wise.

[rpf]

I have a contrary opinion to the posts suggesting you can get 90% or more of the performance of a great CDP with an inexpensive transport and a good approx. $1000 DAC. I had the Northstar Transport (considered one of the better ones out there) with the Underwood modded M.F. Trivista 21 and the Audio Logic MXL24 DACs (all significantly more than $1000. each) and they were not 90% of the Modwright 9100 or the APL Denon 3910.

I also previously had a Scott Nixon Tube DAC (earlier model) with a Modwright Sony 999  and that wasn't even close to the Modwright 999 (which had it's transport modded but was w/o tube rectification).

Of course the rule of diminishing returns applies and of course the differences could be closer depending upon your accompanying equipment but it seems your setup, Pat, requires a higher grade component.

My particular prejudice is that you can not get the dimensionality and palpability of tubes from SS.

Rob

[twitch54]

In audio people tend to pay an ever steeper premium for ever smaller returns.

truth is that same analogy applies to most Hobbies..........does a $300,000 Ferrari offer 4 or 5 times better performance than a Z-o6 Corvette ???  of course not !!

[2bigears]

   new Vette ZR-1,that's where the smart $$ goes.640hp is all you need in a vette street car.Back to audio,i was just wondering on an upgrade from the GNSC Opus21,and how best to do it with a weee bit of common sence behind the move which would be new world for me

[TomS]

Pat,

As I had one myself for awhile, what are you looking for in terms of upgrade to the GNSC Opus 21?

Tom

[2bigears]

  Tom,the player is a good performer,i just wanted to step-up in evolution or simply a more current model....When the Revs cross my door frames i want to know i am feeding then as good a signal as i can.... You see the 30k dollar models and 10k dollar models and the good dac's advertised and ya think,am i missing something???? Living in the sticks sucks sometimes

[miklorsmith]

Said it before . . . you need to travel to hear some of this stuff.  Relying on the words of others to make these decisions is shooting in the dark.

The problem with xx% is that audio quality is NOT a sliding scale where The Best Sound is 100% and others are beneath that.  There are quality and matching issues which cannot be simplified into convenient numbers to base a decision. 

"The Best" signal to feed "a new speaker" doesn't exist.  If people can disagree about what sounds good (and brother do they), imagine "their" advice for your room which they've never heard with a system they've never heard.

The CDP you have now is good.  Get the speaks, see what you think you're lacking (maybe nothing) and go from there.

[2bigears]

Mike,your on target with good advice.I just talked with Frank at AVA.He said with conviction,a 30k dollar cdp is all hype and only for the rich.His dac sounds interesting though,love to give it a try.thks Pat

[TomS]

Tom,the player is a good performer,i just wanted to step-up in evolution or simply a more current model....When the Revs cross my door frames i want to know i am feeding then as good a signal as i can.... You see the 30k dollar models and 10k dollar models and the good dac's advertised and ya think,am i missing something???? Living in the sticks sucks sometimes

I hear ya'.  Indiana isn't much better.  I don't get the benefit of those sweet NY Raves either

I absolutely agree with Mikelorsmith here.  With that said, here's my .02 of where I am, with the understanding that price certainly doesn't dictate or guarantee whether it's the right thing at all.  This is just my journey, if I choose to factor in prices.

My Opus was about $3.5k and the modded Wadia about $10k.  Both were really nice sounding units and I feel like with the Joule/Merlin setup I was easily hearing close to the best each could do.  I also briefly heard an expensive Audio Aero which, was also really nice.  While they all sounded very good, at least for me, the gap wasn't worth it.  Then, after hearing Marbles' Empirical Audio setup and a few Bolder products I knew I could easily reach that same point of delight for the same general $$ territory of the Opus.  I'm not really sure where that knee is in the price curve, but I don't honestly believe it's far from the Opus for me.  In other words, much above that was a point of extraordinarily diminishing returns. 

OTOH - since he also has Revs, Ted_b is a great reference point, given he's also had some of the phenomenal Modwright front end pieces - both the Modwright 9100ES CDP (I think - Ted?) with tube supply and the Transporter if you want computer streaming.  Doesn't sound like he's one to short change the front end, so it might be worth a call.  Maybe you should just take Mikelorsmith's advice, and catch a flight to Cleveland 

[2bigears]

   might try AVA's dac and see what the fuss is all about.Only thing is i don't have a cdp with dig out???? What do you guys suggest i scoop as a transport ?? thks   

[miklorsmith]

Wait until you get your speakers, settle in,  then move on to lesser conquests.  No matter how much you spend on your digi, the differences will be miniscule compared to your new speakers.

[Double Ugly]

Wait until you get your speakers, settle in,  then move on to lesser conquests.  No matter how much you spend on your digi, the differences will be miniscule compared to your new speakers.

You won't receive better advice than this, Pat.

[Mag]

Right.  Before the Bryston BCD-1, NOBODY was hearing "all the detail that a cd is capable of." 

[Forgive my ignorance, but I don't have the luxury in my neck of the woods to hear other audiophile systems. There may indeed be cd players better the the Bryston. But if there are, how much more do they cost?
It's like hockey, sure there were players that could score goals and assists before Gretsky came along. If they were better however why didn't they put up the kind of numbers? He is called the 'Great One' because he put up points like no one before, as good as players as there were.
So to my limited knowledge nobody is making a cd player that can extract the detail of the BCD-1 at an affordable cost.
The Tech.co review compares the Bryston to Opus 21 which is considerably more money. Although he considers the 21 to be more open, biggar and seemless picture with convincing imaging. The BCD-1 is authoritative, neutral,solid sound, detailed and dry sounding.
I suspect he never played a re mastered cd when making that assessment.]

Harshness isn't "common in cd"; it's common in digital components.
[/quote]

I thought I read somewhere that harshness was a result of PCM. That if you record in DSD and playback in DSD, harshness is gone.
In my listening I've listened to good sacd and dts recordings and I don't hear the harshness that was apparent with cd's at 95+ decibels. Perhaps claimed digititis is a result of the low sample rates and compression. However Bryston has elevated cd playback comparable to dts and sacd on a good recording. And at the same 95+ decibels I can no longer detect harshness. Maybe my hearings going?

Thinking about it some more today while working. The Bryston approach to the cd  player, is going to improve streaming or computer playback.
You don't need a cd, you just need the wav. Improve the sampling, add a good dac, chip and quality components. Attach to computer soundcard and voila, playback as good as any standalone source. Throw in cheap massive hard drives, and a secure computer, and the future is here! It's what I envisioned when I started out some 7 years ago in home audio. Heck, I might have to go back to using computer as my main source.

[NewBuyer]

...You don't need a cd, you just need the wav. Improve the sampling, add a good dac, chip and quality components. Attach to computer soundcard and voila, playback as good as any standalone source. Throw in cheap massive hard drives, and a secure computer, and the future is here!...

Not to mention, you can even now get all this *on* a great computer soundcard itself, no need for an external DAC.

[BrianM]

  might try AVA's dac and see what the fuss is all about.Only thing is i don't have a cdp with dig out???? What do you guys suggest i scoop as a transport ?? thks   

I use an inexpensive Sony DVD player as a transport.  I think if you pay more than, oh, $200 for a transport, with this DAC anyway, you're just throwing money away.

I just talked with Frank at AVA.He said with conviction,a 30k dollar cdp is all hype and only for the rich.

People might assume, given that you appear to be considering a $30,000 CD player, that you yourself are rich.  (Either that, or you have very unusual budgetary priorities I guess.)  I second Frank's conviction, but nobody can tell you how to spend your money.  The "fuss" about the AVA DAC, as far as I'm concerned, is that it plays great music.  Others may argue that paying up for it is also too much $.  Who can say?  I don't know if it's better than every other DAC in its price range, but if you take the time to investigate its particular design, not least its ability to drive downstream loads (it is a very muscular, as well as musical, DAC), I think it makes a pretty strong case for itself.  As Frank is fond of saying, it's the only DAC he's encountered that can take a full power square wave test without distorting or clipping the output signal.

[BrianM]

That being said, I definitely agree with miklorsmith that you should wait until you get your speakers before you make any move!