[Mag]

The Bryston BCD-1 is all you need.
I'm not knowledgeable on dac's, sure a good dac hooked to a transport will give you improved sound.
And I've gone the computer route. When you have a hard drive crash with all your music on it that you can't retrieve, unless you have backups, and the hours it took to transfer thousands of songs. You just want to cry.
Then there's the problem of computer viruses that can wreck havoc on your computer, which I also encountered. And you may have to erase everything to rid the infection. Then if your sharing the computer, you may not be able to access comp. to query up songs.
The solution, have a standalone source and avoid all the possible comp. related problems. A comp. is fine for a secondary source.
What the Bryston does just off the top of my head from reading there website, that in addition to a dac, is it re samples a cd to a dvd level. This smoothes out or removes the harshness that is common in cd. And extracts all the detail that a cd is capable of. This requires a chip, which I'm not aware if other dac's possess. If they do would it be cheaper than a BCD-1? I don't think so.
But don't take my word for it, listen to a BCD-1 for yourself. You may prefer an artificial stereo sound to the realistic sounds extracted from your cd's by a BCD-1

[GHM]

This is why you have external HDs and back up external HDs. Looks like you've had terrible luck.

[doug s.]

if you are concerned about getting decent sound w/a "piece of crap" transport & a dac, well you could ante up $200 for something like this:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=48185

i considered it myself, but to be honest, i am getting fine results w/my denon dcm-560, which cost me all of $80 on ebay.  as far as how it's possible to get decent sound this way, well, all i can say, is i trust my ears.     but, i think a major reason why, is that there's only so much you can get out of the digital format - it doesn't take a lot of money to get 97%+ of all that there is to be had out of this medium.  the law of diminishing returns hits harder w/digital than w/any other gear, imo.  of course, i must state that there are quite a few folks who have invested big bucks in digital & think the additional cost was worth it.  so - ymmv.  also, i can't stress enough the importance of using separate isolation transformers for the dac & transport - this really helps lower the noise floor, & it increases the detail & resolution...

doug s.

there seems to be 3 ways to go here and that's 2 too many for a digital wannabe?? cdp in a box,,,dac & spinner,,,and transport with hd storage.Man,why is this stuff all over the place???? Is there a clear winner?? I am kinnda thinking a dac with spinner may be something to try.How is it you can use a piece of grap transport and get good sound into dac????Sorry for the dump question,trying to learn a new way?? thks  Pat

[srayle]

Get a Squeezebox. CDP's are the 8 track of the near future. Don't spend big bucks.

[JLM]

The new Squeezebox Duet looks sweet!  It is the future, no doubt.  But at a minimum you should add an external harddrive for backup.  Later on the power supply really should be upgraded, the receiver must be modded if your a "real" audiophile, and a dedicated computer is the smart thing to do.  (A $400 tease can become a $3000 investment.)

And you need to be comfortable/savy with computers and personal networks.  I had to sell my SB3 after a real struggle to get it to work and then months of various problems that resulted in being down for weeks at a time.

So currently I'm "slumming" with an Oppo universal player, while hoping for a "dummy friendlier" computer based solution to appear.  $170 delivered for audiophile entry level sound quality with build quality on par for the price.  Everyone has their own ideas of "minimally acceptable" levels of sound quality, but my Oppo 970 is working OK in my $3000 system and is recommended by "Goodsound".

[BrianM]

What the Bryston does just off the top of my head from reading there website, that in addition to a dac, is it re samples a cd to a dvd level. This smoothes out or removes the harshness that is common in cd. And extracts all the detail that a cd is capable of.

Right.  Before the Bryston BCD-1, NOBODY was hearing "all the detail that a cd is capable of." 

Harshness isn't "common in cd"; it's common in digital components.

[Wally King]

What the Bryston does just off the top of my head from reading there website, that in addition to a dac, is it re samples a cd to a dvd level. This smoothes out or removes the harshness that is common in cd. And extracts all the detail that a cd is capable of.

Right.  Before the Bryston BCD-1, NOBODY was hearing "all the detail that a cd is capable of." 

Harshness isn't "common in cd"; it's common in digital components.

Brian,

From your comment, I gather you think highly of the Bryston, and I see that you also own the AVA Ultra DAC.  Would you care to compare these?

[doug s.]

wally, i guess we need to hear back from brianm - i interpreted his comments as being sarcastic.  not that he's heard the bryston & disliked it, but more that he thinks the comments about it are over the top, & that many folks are hearing good digital before this particular piece...

personally, i'd be surprised if that bryston could top my present set-up, tho i have never heard it.  this is cuz of other set-ups i have heard.  and, it's not at all slighting the bryston's performance - it may in fact be a fine piece of gear. but, per my prior stated beliefs there's only so much that can be had from the redbook cd medium.

and, i think mag's comments about his bryston are ridiculous:

"...You may prefer an artificial stereo sound to the realistic sounds extracted from your cd's by a BCD-1..."

ya, i know, everyone that doesn't have a bryston bcd-1, but still likes the sound from their digital system, is listening to artificial stereo sound instead of the realistic sounds that can be extracted from cd's - please, give me a break!   

doug s.

What the Bryston does just off the top of my head from reading there website, that in addition to a dac, is it re samples a cd to a dvd level. This smoothes out or removes the harshness that is common in cd. And extracts all the detail that a cd is capable of.

Right.  Before the Bryston BCD-1, NOBODY was hearing "all the detail that a cd is capable of." 

Harshness isn't "common in cd"; it's common in digital components.

Brian,

From your comment, I gather you think highly of the Bryston, and I see that you also own the AVA Ultra DAC.  Would you care to compare these?

[BrianM]

wally, i guess we need to hear back from brianm - i interpreted his comments as being sarcastic. not that he's heard the bryston & disliked it, but more that he thinks the comments about it are over the top, & that many folks are hearing good digital before this particular piece...

Correct...

but, per my prior stated beliefs there's only so much that can be had from the redbook cd medium.

To answer Wally's question about the AVA DAC, I would just say that the "so much" to be had from redbook cd is indeed much.  Standard CDs are 16-bit; the issue, IME, is not whether 16-bit is enough, it's whether your DAC is actually giving you all 16-bits, 100% of the time.  To my knowledge the AVA DAC is the only real 16-bit parallel processor DAC around.

This isn't to say that 24-bit CDs couldn't be meaningfully superior to redbook -- though based on what I've heard that's at least debatable, and how much of this depends on the quality of conversion??? -- but that redbook CDs aren't generally as bad as people assume.  In fact they're quite good, and to me can sound every bit as "liquid" as an LP (with superior dynamics and none of the noise of course).  As to whether it's worth the extra dough, that's always subjective.  For me it was.  Aside from the number of bits, a great deal depends on the analog stage, too.  Recent improvements to the Van Alstine DAC, for example, have been, AFAIK, primarily concerned with the "A" half of "D/A".  Given that these improvements have been significant, that could suggest something about the unrealized potential of many CD players.  People underrate the importance of the power supply and transformer, for example.

Anyway if you're interested, Frank explains his approach in this thread:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=30360.0

[BrianM]

Oh, and if you care to read about how the AVA DAC bested my former CDP (an Arcam FMJ), that's here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=41833.0

The point I tried to make was that the differences between a very excellent CDP and the DAC didn't knock me over the head, since they were gains in the area of microdynamics, decay, and timbre.  Those are improvements that tend to sink in after a while, and indeed when I tried switching back to the CDP a couple weeks later I missed them by their absence.

[2bigears]

A real nice fellow phoned last night with a few options on new gear.The cdp he had was 30k dollars modded.Best cdp in the world.Must be some good stuff,32 bit dac,high mods. He also highly spoke on the AMR cdp at 8k bucks.And here i thought the economy was slow,man i don't know sh-t.

[some young guy]

A real nice fellow phoned last night with a few options on new gear.The cdp he had was 30k dollars modded.Best cdp in the world.Must be some good stuff,32 bit dac,high mods. He also highly spoke on the AMR cdp at 8k bucks.And here i thought the economy was slow,man i don't know sh-t.

brent is a really good guy to deal with. 

[2bigears]

     ahhhh,SYG,you know your stuff .He sounded straight.Who buys this stuff.You have to line up for the AMR.

[Wally King]

wally, i guess we need to hear back from brianm - i interpreted his comments as being sarcastic. not that he's heard the bryston & disliked it, but more that he thinks the comments about it are over the top, & that many folks are hearing good digital before this particular piece...

Correct...

but, per my prior stated beliefs there's only so much that can be had from the redbook cd medium.

To answer Wally's question about the AVA DAC, I would just say that the "so much" to be had from redbook cd is indeed much.  Standard CDs are 16-bit; the issue, IME, is not whether 16-bit is enough, it's whether your DAC is actually giving you all 16-bits, 100% of the time.  To my knowledge the AVA DAC is the only real 16-bit parallel processor DAC around.

This isn't to say that 24-bit CDs couldn't be meaningfully superior to redbook -- though based on what I've heard that's at least debatable, and how much of this depends on the quality of conversion??? -- but that redbook CDs aren't generally as bad as people assume.  In fact they're quite good, and to me can sound every bit as "liquid" as an LP (with superior dynamics and none of the noise of course).  As to whether it's worth the extra dough, that's always subjective.  For me it was.  Aside from the number of bits, a great deal depends on the analog stage, too.  Recent improvements to the Van Alstine DAC, for example, have been, AFAIK, primarily concerned with the "A" half of "D/A".  Given that these improvements have been significant, that could suggest something about the unrealized potential of many CD players.  People underrate the importance of the power supply and transformer, for example.

Anyway if you're interested, Frank explains his approach in this thread:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=30360.0

Thanks for the reply.

I suspected you were being a bit sarcastic, but I don't want to insult anyone by assuming sarcasm when none is intended.

I'm looking to make an upgrade in my digital source, and the AVA DAC, as well as the Bryston, have been among the things I've been considering.  I've been using a modified Jolida CDP for the last few years, with which I've been happy, actually, but ... there may be something better out there in the $1500 - $2500 range. I suspect (or is it just wishful thinking?) that I can get 95% of what's to be had from a CD without spending much more than $2000.

I've yet to read any thing about the AVA DAC that wasn't highly positive. Your review was very informative and helpful.

[BrianM]

I suspect (or is it just wishful thinking?) that I can get 95% of what's to be had from a CD without spending much more than $2000.

Well...let's avoid the pitfall, currently being plumbed in another thread, of trying to assign percentages.  Suffice to say my DAC was a very satisfying purchase that does not leave me longing for something better, or for a different format.

That said (heh), with a 16-bit parallel processor I think it's fair to say you're getting all of the information on a redbook CD.  At least, you're getting it to the analog stage.  What happens from there is where the rubber hits the road, of course, and results may vary.

[doug s.]

brianm makes a good point about potential pitfalls of assigning percentages...  that said, i believe you can get even closer to all that can be had from redbook cd than 95%, without spending any more than $1000, let alone $2000...  and, no, i don't think your dac has to be a modded art di/o - there's other dacs that will work...

doug s.

"...I suspect (or is it just wishful thinking?) that I can get 95% of what's to be had from a CD without spending much more than $2000....

[miklorsmith]

I think it depends on the rest of the system.  With an outstanding system, $1,000 normally spent will install a serious limit.  In a system proportionally allocated, $1,000 is probably plenty.

[doug s.]

well...

i am not sure "outstanding system" & amount of money spent is necessarily correlated.  that said, i think i have an outstanding system, cost notwithstanding.     well - systemS actually, as i have two pairs of speakers that i think are up there w/the best, when crossed over to my vmps larger subs.  one pair, the coincident victory's, retailed for $5k.  its efficiency is such that it performs well w/only 5wpc, & the amazing underachiever modded almarro a205a mkll fills the bill.  w/hovland caps, & nos tubes, its retail is a paltry ~$1100.  when i am using my retail ~$9.4k piega p5 mkll ltd's, i use a $5k mesa baron to drive 'em.  crossover is a ~$3.7k deqx 2.6pdc.  preamp is a vintage melos ma333r, retailed for $4k about ten years ago, since upgraded w/about ~$2k worth of mods.  fm tuna depends on what day it is...     analog is an old oracle, upgraded to mkv specs, except for power supply & motor, which is origin live dc motor kit.  tonearm is origin live silver taper, their best arm, prior to their latest "illustrious" series...  fono stage is pentagon ps3.  cartridge is ortofon mc-25fl; i have a freshly rebuilt by vdh (thru klaus bunge) lyra clavis yust sitting there, cuz i really think the ortofon is ok.

i list this stuff not to boast.  in fact, except for the vmps subs, everything was purchased for at least 50% off retail, if not considerably more...  i yust list this stuff so you can judge what i like listening thru...  and, i can tell you that there is no performance limit imposed upon my digital playback system, even tho i have less than $500 invested there, in total - which included dac, transporter, two isolation transformers, & digital cable...  and, i have also taken my digital set-up to be listened to in similarly hi-end systems, to be compared to more expensive digital front-ends, & my digital front end easily held its own...

ymmv,

doug s.

I think it depends on the rest of the system.  With an outstanding system, $1,000 normally spent will install a serious limit.  In a system proportionally allocated, $1,000 is probably plenty.

[2bigears]

   sooo,if i understand right,a good dac with any old transport will do 90% what a 30k dollar cdp will do???? That can't be right?? I like the % way of getting to the bottom of things as it's something we all can get straight.Not sure i have this right as i only dwell in single box players.

[BrianM]

  sooo,if i understand right,a good dac with any old transport will do 90% what a 30k dollar cdp will do???? That can't be right?? I like the % way of getting to the bottom of things as it's something we all can get straight.Not sure i have this right as i only dwell in single box players.

Well, if you're really wanting to quantify performance, ask yourself this.  Is the $30,000 CD player 15 times better than the $2000 CD player (or DAC)?  I'll hazard that it is not...

In audio people tend to pay an ever steeper premium for ever smaller returns.