[AdamM]

Since capacitance is an issue of geometry and dielectric, I don't see how copper would have any greater capacitance than silver if the geometries and dielectrics are the same. How is this anomaly explained?

Quite true, but we're briefly talking about a wide area, and the discussion was started in the context of my experience.  Previously i had some whatever-over-priced monster cables, and switched to a set of self-built multi strand 20AWG pure silver conductors with pure cotton dielectrics and Bullet plug ends.  The difference for me was that my new cables were better.  I wasn't speaking of the differences between copper and silver alone, although that is a fascinating topic.

Well, if it's just an issue of capacitance and resistance, you can end up with the same capacitance and resistance of a set of silver cables using copper. So I was assuming from your original statement that there's something more going on than simply C and R.

Let's not forget induction!

And since there have yet to be any definitive blind test results for interconnects and speaker cables (at least when the differences between the cables are below known hearing thresholds), why shouldn't one also suspect that it's perception/wanting to believe stuff going on with respect to speaker cables and interconnects?

Agreed.  Perhaps my burnt fingers from working with silver solder, and pushing cotton down endless miles of silver strand have compromised my judgment!  Honestly though, my DIY silver wires are better than off the shelf Monsters.  This should hardly be surprising.

So powercords then?  I'd love to do some tests in a good environment.  It sure seems to defy logic.  Let's do some blind tests and see what the verdicts are.  There's a good audio club where i live, perhaps this will be a great contentious topic for a future meet.

Cheers,
/A

[AJinFLA]

I think Silver is by far the best material to be in possession of WRT "high-end" audio wire/IC/PC/whatnot design, with all the vampires involved in such endeavors.

cheers,

AJ

[Steve Eddy]

Quite true, but we're briefly talking about a wide area, and the discussion was started in the context of my experience.

Fair 'nuff.

I just saw your incredulity that power cords could possibly make a difference, but yet you seemed to fully accept that interconnects and speaker cables make a difference. You said that power cords are beyond explanation so I thought I'd ask what would explain interconnects and speaker cables.

You replied saying it was a difference of capacitance between copper and silver, which then takes it out of the realm of just your experience. By that I mean that if copper cables were in fact more capacitive than silver cables all else being equal, then that transcends your experience. In other words, if copper cables were more capacitive than silver cables, that would be the case for everyone.

Previously i had some whatever-over-priced monster cables, and switched to a set of self-built multi strand 20AWG pure silver conductors with pure cotton dielectrics and Bullet plug ends.  The difference for me was that my new cables were better.

And that's just fine. I wouldn't expect anyone do any less than go with what works best for them whatever the reason may be.

I wasn't speaking of the differences between copper and silver alone, although that is a fascinating topic.

Yeah, but it doesn't do much to impress the babes.

Anyway, I was just wondering why you accepted that interconnects and speaker cables could make a difference even though it's just as beyond explanation as you say power cords are.

Let's not forget induction!

No. But you didn't mention inductance so I chose not to bring it up.

Agreed.  Perhaps my burnt fingers from working with silver solder, and pushing cotton down endless miles of silver strand have compromised my judgment!

Perhaps. But I hear doing such things really builds character, so not as if it was a total loss.

Honestly though, my DIY silver wires are better than off the shelf Monsters.  This should hardly be surprising.

Well, depending how you define "better," some would argue that it is surprising. While no one would question that your experience is anything other than what it is, as far as actual audible differences go, there are those who would find that very surprising.

So powercords then?  I'd love to do some tests in a good environment.  It sure seems to defy logic.

But no more so than interconnects and speaker cables.

Let's do some blind tests and see what the verdicts are.

Doing proper blind testing (i.e. double blind) requires a tremendous amount of planning and effort. And if one isn't prepared to put commit to such an effort, I don't see much point in doing any testing at all. Just enjoy what you enjoy for whatever reason and leave it at that.

There's a good audio club where i live, perhaps this will be a great contentious topic for a future meet.

Only as long as there's a good chance of bloodshed. Otherwise, just stay home.

se

[Summer]

http://web.archive.org/web/20020214075205/http://www.oakland.edu/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm
http://www.verber.com/mark/ce/cables.html
http://www.verber.com/mark/ce/cables.html
John Dunlevy, Dunlevy Audio Labs
http://www.vxm.com/21R.64.html
http://www.national.com/rap/Story/0,1562,3,00.html
National semiconductor, they might take your golden ears for a test ride?
http://signal.ece.utexas.edu/seminars/dsp_seminars/01fall/AudioMyths.pdf
http://pkant.htmlplanet.com/myths.htm
http://www.edn.com/article/CA6418215.html
“Howard Johnson, PhD, of Signal Consulting, frequently conducts technical workshops for digital engineers at Oxford University and other sites worldwide.”
http://sound.westhost.com/madashell.htm
http://www.ethanwiner.com/myths.html
“Ethan Winer has been a professional musician, composer, audio engineer, recording instructor, computer programmer, and consultant since the 1960s.”
http://www.avahifi.com/root/audio_basics/1998-10_seven_shiny_pennys.htm
http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/product/Cable_Controversy/Cable_Controversy.htm
And a quote from the late Bob Tucker, at Dynaco :  "Separately, there are a few areas in even the best designs where cost considerations are evident, but the conscientious audio designer makes sure that to the best of his knowledge, they don't impose sonic strictures. But the more expensive approach does not always bring improvement -- audible or otherwise. Certainly improvement does not necessarily follow from increasing complexity. More likely, the reverse is true. Progress is made when you scientifically systematize and quantify noted effects. This industry has been besieged by a number of unsubstantiated hypotheses (and its share of sales malarkey) of late.  "We need more scientific methodology so there is less 'caveat emptor', even if the snake oil has been largely reserved for those who can (or wish to) afford it. Objective double-blind testing has eradicated some long-held audio myths -- to my ears at least. Not that all amps, or preamps, sound alike -- but a lot of good ones are not necessarily distinguishable. Sure, use a more expensive part if it really does sound better, but don't waste a lot of peoples' money if you can't prove it. The best designs evolve from those individuals and companies who maintain a healthy skepticism for unsupported postulates, but are quick to grasp the provable achievements. The real art is bringing the greatest good (music) to the greatest number."

[AdamM]

Doing proper blind testing (i.e. double blind) requires a tremendous amount of planning and effort. And if one isn't prepared to put commit to such an effort, I don't see much point in doing any testing at all. Just enjoy what you enjoy for whatever reason and leave it at that.

Oh man you're right.  Sooo much effort, and it's doubly bad when people don't like to hear the results of the tests!

So powercords then?  I'd love to do some tests in a good environment.  It sure seems to defy logic.

But no more so than interconnects and speaker cables.

I must respectfully disagree on this one.  With interconnects and speaker cables, they're directly involved in the communication between said devices.  With power cords, they're a player in the system, but are removed by a number of stages from directly being a signal conductor.  There's the power supply, filter caps, the same $.2 resistors that most people use, the same mosfet transistors that most people us (if SS) - etc., you see where i'm going.   

It's like saying the truck which drove the water to the soup factory makes a difference in the taste of the soup.  Well, not really, but you see what i mean?

Any characteristics of a given cable would be marginalized by the rest of the amplifier system.

So i have to disagree that a power cable is AS involved in the process, as a conductor, as the direct conductors of interconnects and speaker cables are.  That sentence is also one of horrific grammar, but i'm tired and it will have to do.

Different geographic areas have vastly different power supplies.  Certain areas back east run 'brown' - IE a lower voltage, while some areas have wandering frequency issues.  Heck, Europe and Asia at 50hz and NA at 60hz is a drastic difference!


I'd say geographical location has a significantly larger impact on the current going into any amplifier, than any cord could possibly have.

/A

[Summer]

As far as audio jewelry.....What's wrong with that, anyways?

Nothing....I traded in my gold chain....went to silver...  



(Thats a BSC Statement....nice power cord)

http://cgi.ebay.com/1600-Silver-Reference-Power-Cord-New-High-Current-NR_W0QQitemZ180151355143QQihZ008QQcategoryZ32833QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Some more beautiful pieces for your attire?
$1600 power cord, starting at .1 cent, no bids yet though, looks like some solid science?  You got to wonder why there is no bids?  This is got to be a missprint?  Maybe even I will upgrade, this is lower than the shack. Probably makes it up in volume and shipping.

[TONEPUB]

I guess what I'm curious about, seeing that you are so quick to dismiss everything,
what is your experience and what are you listening to now?

I often tell a lot of people and our readers that really good cables (speaker, interconnect or power) are icing on the cake, when everything else is dialed in.  They don't make as huge of a difference as some of the manufacturers would like us to report, but there is a difference between the sound of one cable vs. another.

Perhaps you system/room/software is not capable of resolving enough detail for you to hear a readily apparent difference.

That's ok too.

However if one has a system capable of revealing a lot of musical detail and good software that they are very familiar with, it's pretty easy to hear the diff.

[Steve Eddy]

Oh man you're right.  Sooo much effort, and it's doubly bad when people don't like to hear the results of the tests!

Yup. The way I see it, either just enjoy what you enjoy for whatever the reason, or, if you're going to make declarative, objective statements of fact, be prepared to substantiate them with something well, substantive.

I've always opted for the former. I make cables which some would argue are not only grossly overpriced, but can't possibly make an actual audible difference. To those people, I have the same answer that US Marshall Sam Gerard had for Dr. Richard Kimble in the film The Fugitive when Kimble said he didn't kill his wife; "I don't care."

Gerard didn't care because his job was simply to bring Kimble into custody. I don't care because my "job" (as I see it anyway), is my own selfish, hedonistic pleasure. End of story.

I must respectfully disagree on this one.  With interconnects and speaker cables, they're directly involved in the communication between said devices.  With power cords, they're a player in the system, but are removed by a number of stages from directly being a signal conductor.  There's the power supply, filter caps, the same $.2 resistors that most people use, the same mosfet transistors that most people us (if SS) - etc., you see where i'm going.

Yes.

It's like saying the truck which drove the water to the soup factory makes a difference in the taste of the soup.  Well, not really, but you see what i mean?

Oh yeah? Well what if the truck driving the water to the soup factory had previously been carrying gasoline? I actually live just a few miles from a Campbell's Soup factory. You should see some of the trucks that pull into that place.

But yeah, I see what you mean. However...

Any characteristics of a given cable would be marginalized by the rest of the amplifier system.

Ok, but...

So i have to disagree that a power cable is AS involved in the process, as a conductor, as the direct conductors of interconnects and speaker cables are.

...one could argue that the characteristics of a given interconnect or speaker cable, even though more "involved in the process," is no less marginalized, except perhaps in cases where the cables are just plain stupidly designed.

That sentence is also one of horrific grammar, but i'm tired and it will have to do.

That's ok. I managed to slog my way through it.

Different geographic areas have vastly different power supplies.  Certain areas back east run 'brown' - IE a lower voltage, while some areas have wandering frequency issues.  Heck, Europe and Asia at 50hz and NA at 60hz is a drastic difference!


I'd say geographical location has a significantly larger impact on the current going into any amplifier, than any cord could possibly have.

Fair 'nuff. Though here's something to ponder.

The construction of the power cord (and I'm referring here to the typical three conductor types) will play a role in chassis leakage currents. This is due to the capacitive coupling between the hot lead and the safety ground lead. Two chassis with different chassis leakage currents can result in interchassis currents, which are currents which flow between equipment chassis through the ground lead of the interconnects.

Because the ground lead of the interconnects will have some non-zero resistance, the interchassis current flowing through them will have an IR drop across them which appears as noise at the input of the downstream component.

While technically this isn't a distortion of the signal itself, it is an example of an effect a power cord can have.

Just a little food for thought.

se

[Daygloworange]

It's like saying the truck which drove the water to the soup factory makes a difference in the taste of the soup.  Well, not really, but you see what i mean?

Adam,

Logically speaking, I agree with all your examples of why a power cord couldn't possibly make a difference in the sound. I sat and thought out logically why it shouldn't make a damn bit of difference. But I rarely say never, so I am always very open minded on topics that are well beyond my general understanding. Even on topics I know and understand well, I leave room there too. It's healthy.

I tried a few times and thought I might have heard a difference, but when blind tested, I was inconsistent. So I was very much convinced that it wasn't an area worth pursuing much.

I tried it again a few weeks ago while I had someone over listening to speakers. We definitely heard a difference. Me and the other fellow agreed we would simply switch back and forth between PC's, listen, not look at each other to tip each other off, then at the end of the session discuss it, and compare experiences. We heard the same differences. I don't recall if the other fellow was a believer in cable differences or not. He has a background in electronics.

After he left, another friend stopped by, and we were hanging out listening to music and I decided to do the swaps again. He didn't know what I was swapping out. I told him I was going to try something, didn't tell him what. I just asked him to tell me if he heard a difference. So I went back and forth a few times. He's got real good ears. Better than mine. He heard a difference as well. He has an EE background, and a background in telecommunications from his days in the Army. He is a total skeptic when it comes to power cords. He has zip cord speaker wires in his  way mega buck system. He heard a difference.

Both gents are AudioCircle members. We all heard the difference.

Funny thing was, we all liked the stock cheapo power cord vs the expensive one.

I'm not trying to suggest that cheap power cords are better, just that we heard a difference, and agreed that one cord sounded better in my system than the other. I've spoken to a few experts on the topic, and have been told it's not hard to make a PC sound different from another one.

Honestly, I wish I never heard a difference. I've got enough things in my life to agonize over.  

If someone wanted to question my sanity over what I thought I heard, my response would simply be, "bite me". As sure as I'm typing this, I heard a difference in the 2 power cords we tested. Do I think I could do the test that we did with those particular cords and be consistent. Yes.

What does this mean for me personally? Not much really. I'd rather spend my money, time on room acoustics, and better components than cords, but, to each his own.

Cheers

[Steve Eddy]

Hey Jeff!

However if one has a system capable of revealing a lot of musical detail and good software that they are very familiar with, it's pretty easy to hear the diff.

Yet people who use such things as bottles of rocks, intelligent chips, clever little clocks, and even putting photographs of themselves and their audio systems in their freezers also report "hearing the difference."

So what exactly does that say about "hearing a difference"? Does it mean that there's quite literally nothing that doesn't produce an actual audible difference and similarly there's quite literally nothing too absurd and and that our sense of hearing ultimately has no limits at all?

If not, are those people reporting hearing such differences with rocks, chips, clocks and frozen photographs simply deluding themselves? And if so, how can one be sure they're also not deluding themselves when it comes to things such as interconnects, speaker cables and power cords?

se

[Daygloworange]

I do have to agree though, that as you build a better system, you hear stuff that you wouldn't hear in a lesser (but still very good) system. I still have all the gear that I had as a system from 2 years ago kicking around. Just for fun I assemble it once in a while the way my system used to be before I upgraded.

I could never go back now. I'm ruined! Seriously.

As your system resolution goes up, you hear things you would not have before. I hate to admit it, but, I have learned that what I thought was high fidelity, could be improved upon a whole lot.

Cheers

[Steve Eddy]

If someone wanted to question my sanity over what I thought I heard, my response would simply be, "bite me".

No one should ever question your sanity. That humans are prone to subjectively perceiving differences even when there are no actual physical, audible differences has absolutely nothing to do with one's sanity. It simply has to do with being a normal human being. It's just how we're built.

Do I think I could do the test that we did with those particular cords and be consistent. Yes.

Depending on how the test was done, this may well be true.

I've a friend who is well experienced in doing double blind testing. His specialty is perceptual coding and he's the one who developed the MP3 codec. He had often said that getting positive results from a double blind test was pretty easy. It was getting a null result that was the hard part.

By that he meant that there are so many things that can go wrong in blind testing that it's easy to get false positives.

I'm not saying that your results are necessarily a false positive. Only that such a casually conducted listening test can be prone to giving a false positive.

Now bite me and go to bed. It's 3:00AM back there for crying out loud!

se

[AdamM]

Steve Eddy:  Good food for thought, thanks for that, i'll continue to ponder!

Daygloworange:  Great message, entertaining read.  Thanks for sharing, i'm just trying to understand the physics behind it.  I also realize that specifications often have little to do with enjoyment or performance.  I have some SET kt88 tube amps which aren't that 'great' on paper, but are so alive and intoxicating.

TONEPUB:  Not dismissing, just trying to understand. Tone not meant to come across as dismissive, it's just an argument proposal type of conjecture. If my points are invalid, please invalidate them with truths.

As for gear:

Room A: Living room.  Bad acoustics!
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=1178&pos=8
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=1178&pos=1
Source
- Rega P3 with a variety of needles.
- Nakamichi CD player - oldie but goodie
- Modded Squeezebox

Preamp - Hand built tube 12AU7 / 12AX7, i copied some current designs and did a few mods. High end caps / resistors.  Stepped attenuator

Amps - Hand built SET KT88 monoblocks.  Near price-no-object trafos / caps / resistors.  I modified some existing circuit designs.

Cables - all 30AWG multi strand pure cotton dielectric cables / interconnects.

Speakers - RAW HT8's. Painted ferrari silver.  Full upgraded crossovers, full silver wiring inside.  Dynamat, vinyl tile and acoustic foam resonance control.  Long wool fiber fill.  These are pretty special.

I think it's a good system, one definitely able to reveal subtle things.  I'm especially proud of my preamps and amps.  They smack stuff 3X times their price.  The room acoustics are horrible, however.


Room B: Studio
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=1178&pos=10

Source:  Apogee Ensemble A/D/A.  This is professional grade recording equipment.  You've listened to Apogee A/D/A's on many of your favorite recordings i guess

Amp:  Adcom GFA-6000.  Soon to be replaced with some GB150's from Greg Ball

Speakers:  RAW HT3's, with full crossover upgrades.

More here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=1178

Cheers,
/Adam

[AdamM]

TONEPUB - quick one - forgot to mention, the studio has full acoustic treatment, including bass traps and diffusers.  I've personally analyzed the room with white noise generation from the monitors and tuned accordingly.

I'd argue that it's pretty dialed in.

Cheers,
/A

[JohnR]

No one should ever question your sanity.

I think someone should question mine.

Now, where's my silver-lined doona with extra fluffy bits. (Hey, it's winter here.) I need to curl up with my most precious beliefs and hold them close.

[JLM]

We live in a scientific age, where the fruits of science has yielded many fruits, and perhaps more importantly explained a great deal of our universe.  It has become the basis for our thinking, much like religion was centuries ago in western cultures.  When you're surrounded by those fruits, the basis is hard to deny. 

Unfortunately we're shifting from scientific (creative) thinking to technological (application) thinking.  Science at it's core is the logic process of questioning, hypothesizing, and testing.  But most of us skip right to acceptance without understanding, sometimes because the science is beyond us or we don't take/have the time to investigate.  For instance, I don't completely understand how this computer works, I just accept that it does.  The unfortunate part comes in the education process where "science" is taught not as a process, but as dogma (a series of facts to blindly be accepted), leaving no room for doubt or nonconformance.

We share the human need to understand the hows of the universe and put it all within a nice system of explanations.  Einsten worked for decades on such a unifying theory.  Conversely when something can't be explained we try to ignore it, because it doesn't fit into our comfy understandable way of thinking.  That is the technical (dogmatic) thinking, not the scientific.  The scientific process accepts what is experienced and tries to explain it.  To say everything should be explainable using science is more dogma.

[StevenACNJ]

I added a bit of audio jewelry to my system over the weekend.

Re-terminated all my inter-connects and digital cables (both cryo VH Audio Pulsar cable) with 18 WBT Nextgen Silver RCA's. They were terminated with Silver Bullet Plugs. I never really liked the construction quality of the Bullet Plugs.

As far as audio jewelry goes the WBT Nextgen plugs are truly a wow. They are very well constructed & look fantastic.

Sound quality enhancement - well it's a bit early to tell - but I liked what I hear so far.   

For me its important for a system to look as well as it sounds.

[Marbles]

Steven,

I did some research a while back with Silver Nextgens's, Copper NextGens's and Silver Eichman's, all using the same Bolder cables.

I preferred the copper NextGens in my system.

I also experimented with SilClear.

I could make the Copper NextGens sound like the Silver ones with this product.

I was hoping when I posted this info a year or two ago I could save people some money.

As far as Power Cables are concerned, I have heard small differences, not enough to get me to buy anything other than some low priced models..Thanks Kevin Haskins (and Bob Crump RIP) and some cheapies off Agon.

Then I heard some of Bob Schult's (Ridge Street Audio's) power cables at a get to gether at my house.

We put two in the system and didn't hear much of a difference.  The third one we put in..Holy Cow!     Big Difference.  Too bad they are so expensive 

[Daygloworange]

Now bite me and go to bed. It's 3:00AM back there for crying out loud!

se

Yeah, my date didn't want to call it a night just yet. 

The unfortunate part comes in the education process where "science" is taught not as a process, but as dogma (a series of facts to blindly be accepted), leaving no room for doubt or nonconformance.

We share the human need to understand the hows of the universe and put it all within a nice system of explanations.  Einsten worked for decades on such a unifying theory.  Conversely when something can't be explained we try to ignore it, because it doesn't fit into our comfy understandable way of thinking.  That is the technical (dogmatic) thinking, not the scientific.  The scientific process accepts what is experienced and tries to explain it.  To say everything should be explainable using science is more dogma.

JLM,

Dude, that's one of the best posts I've ever read on AC.

 I just had someone I respect very much almost jumping up and down the other day telling me how it's impossible that there be a difference in sound between capacitors. That it's simply 2 plates and blah, blah, blah......there's no way. He basically just about called me a retard if I believed otherwise. He's a really intelligent, knowledgeable person, but so arrogant in his thinking because although he knows about a lot of stuff, I know that he's nowhere near knowledgeable enough on the subject of capacitors to make that claim. This guy is a sub-contractor to a number of heavy duty R&D type companies. He's very knowledgeable in a lot of areas.

I did challenge him though. I simply let him go on and on and then asked him if he remembered all the stories he told me when about the times he proved things that other very knowlegeable people said couldn't be. He gets a kick out of proving people wrong.

I asked him if he tought there might be the slightest chance the shoe might be on the other foot in this case. He blinked a couple of times, shook his head, muttered no, turned and walked away.

He did not want to allow for any possibility he might be wrong. His ego just wouldn't allow it.

Cheers

[TheChairGuy]

DGODenny,

I'm not sure what the proportional breakdown is, but there's a lot of folks that live their lives in clear shades of black and white only...with complete intolerence of gray.  My biz partner is such a person, as is my sister, and at least two sister-in-laws and a brother-in-law. 

I'm not a very competitive sort, so I don't engage them in their stark black/white views of the world.....but I see others much more inclined to be competitive do so regularly and get all steamed over these folks bull-headed, steadfastness to what they know and only what they know.  You can't convince them anything exists outside the realm of what they know already.

I haven't yet decided whether that bull-headed steadfastness is a lack of creativity, a control issue they possess, or either an overdeveloped sense of self (ie., overblown ego) or an undernourished sense of self.

The world's a big place and all sorts wander about on it 

John / TheChairlessGuy