[Nels Ferre]

Prompted by a suggestion by member 'JLM' in an Audio Central topic recently...he and I would like to know 'how do you cope with it' and still wanna' listen to music on vinyl?

*first thing is to pitch the cartridge and get another one
*second thing is to really learn to deep clean an LP
         (I use a home brew, and RRL deep cleaner)
*buy a good brush
*sleeves
*Check your cartridge alignment (had that problem with a couple Denons)
gary

Gary,

You got the order wrong:

1.  Deep clean with a Record Cleaning Machine.
2.  New sleeves for your freshly cleaned LPs
3.  Make sure your stylus is clean
4.  Verify proper setup of cartridge/arm- make adjustments as necessary
5.  Then consider a change of cartridge, if necessary

[gooberdude]

Since the importance of the Cleaning Machine seems to be fairly paramount, does anyone have experience with the EV-1 that KAB sells?      I sold my Nitty Gritty 1.0 and plan to get the EV-1...it appears to be the same top plate as the 1.0, and i was more than happy with the performance of the 1.0...just not the price.


$150 for the EV-1 sounds like a good deal.   some of the DIY efforts/recipes, like from Jimmy Neutron, cost a bit more even.


hopefully this isn't too OT.

[DARTH AUDIO]

I agree with Nels..

Gooberdude.. $150 record cleaner isn't going to do the job..

This is your best bet.. http://www.smartdev.com/loricraft.html

[Nels Ferre]

Since the importance of the Cleaning Machine seems to be fairly paramount, does anyone have experience with the EV-1 that KAB sells?      I sold my Nitty Gritty 1.0 and plan to get the EV-1...it appears to be the same top plate as the 1.0, and i was more than happy with the performance of the 1.0...just not the price.


$150 for the EV-1 sounds like a good deal.   some of the DIY efforts/recipes, like from Jimmy Neutron, cost a bit more even.


hopefully this isn't too OT.

Matt,

I have one, I love it, although I agree with Darth: the Loricraft is far better. At 2 grand or thereabouts, it should be.

There is a review of the EV-1 over at TNT, but their server seems to be down at the moment.

[DARTH AUDIO]

The Loricraft is $2235.  $2235 divided by 3000 records = .75 cents a record.. That's cheap to me 

[gooberdude]

My entire vinyl system costs about that much!!!!     as long as the EV-1 can perform similarly to the NG 1.0, i'll probably go with that.   i do realize the suction of my home vacuum has a lot to do with how the EV-1 works.  i had no idea TNT reveiwed it.

i hated the noise of the 1.0, couldn't clean late at night.  Do the hi-end RCM's tackle the db issue???  Are any of them dead quiet??     that alone might drive me to someday drop coin like that.


i'm the type that cleans the heck out of all my LP's just once, and so far i'm thrilled with what vacuuming cleaning LP's does in general.      i went through 1 round of Mold Release Compound cleaning stuff, the $8 sampler from Osage Products.    a 3 step process was a major PITA.  probably going RRL fluids (2 step) this next time around.      No clue on the MRC debate, but now that i've been using the Alsop Orbitrac there's some grease or crud that does come off brand new, sealed LP's...its a slimy greenish yellow.    could it be simply from gunk in the air in the pressing plants??    i should post pics next time i have a new LP and a new cleaning pad.

if any readers want to clean LP's but not shell out for an RCM right away, the orbitrac is pretty good and about $50.   You'll want something like this to preclean Lp's, especially used ones, prior to cleaning with an RCM anyhow.   it'll remove crud that you won't want on the cleaning pads which come with the RCM.

RCM clean it once, replace the stock inner sleeve with MFSL sleeves, throw on a good outer plastic sleeve and 'whoila'... a perfect LP for many years 

[BobRex]

Bob,

How can a cartridge and a preamp decode nose from signal...got me lost there    Amplification is amplification (be it quiet, noisy, accurate or innacurate) - unless it's otherwise filtered (ie, subsonic filtering - which the CIAudio phono pre's have - can remove a layer of noise one never knew existed).  Infrasonic filtering can help, too.

Damped arms, damped headshell, damped interconnects - I understand critical damping as profoundly important to noise levels.  I totally get the use of fine line or hyper-elliptical stylus shapes that ride where heavy-handed conicals have not previously. I concur about wet washing/vacuum cleaning with cleaner/anti-static agent.  I even recently found that better table isolation and or drainage removes noise from the equation (much like a filter)...so that clicks and pops are relatively de-emphasized on the playback side.

But actually decoding noise from signal in cartridges and preamps.....this, I'd like to hear more about as it's entirely new to me 

Now this topic is really morphing into technical side....newbies, hang in there or turn off at this point.  We don't want to scare you away further from vinyl now that we reeled you in 

This is based more upon emperical observation than circuit analysis.  First, most of the better phono stages use passive RIAA, many of the lesser units (and I'll include the black cube in this list) use op-amp based active RIAA.  That may be the difference, but I'm not 100% on that.  Beyond that, the circuits are pretty similar.

What I found over the years is that as I improved my phono stage, the noise seemed to separate itself from the music more and more.  Receivers, integrateds, and "cheap" SS preamps tended to fare poorer in this than quality SS and tube units.  Then my cj PV2 was worse than my PV5, which was worse than my current Herron.  I was able to "prove" this with other units that I sold (I worked high end retail for 20 years.)

Maybe it's power supply, maybe it's the passive RIAA, maybe it's a function of the different gain blocks (tube vs. SS.)  I'll let the designers fight that one out.

[TheChairGuy]

Beautiful machine, that Loricraft 

I'd have thought for $2400 they coulda' come up with something a little more high tech than a Ball canning jar with two holes cut in the lid, tho:


I've heard (used) the VPI cleaners...and remember them to be about as loud as my Nitty Gritty Model 1.0 I have now.  Much depends on the vacuum you are using with your EV-1.  All uprights (those with attachments) tend to be a little weak thru the attachments...and a little loud due to price point issues.  Canisters will suck better - and if you can find a two stage one (three stages if it has a powerhead), you'll find suction to be better - and less loud, oftentimes as they were higher end and had additional damping built into them.

There are ways to improve both your suction and noise issue with your EV-2...it'll cost you a $$ few hundred for a new (2 stage/quiet) canister vacuum to do it. At least it won't set you back $2400...and you can still vac your rugs with it. Admittedly, the Loricraft is automatic and seems to have a nicer pick-up system (across the record as your tonearm would trace it)...but I'm not sure that's worth $2000.00 more than a new vacuum.

How the hell does TheChairGuy know this arcane crap - worked for Hoover, then Singer, floorcare companies for about 6 years from 1988 - 1994 

[TONEPUB]

It's always about convenience, functionality and budget. 

I'd get a clearaudio Matrix if I could afford it!  I just have
the Simple Matrix now and love it! 

Clean records are essential and I agree with Nils, get em
in a nice clean sleeve right away!!!

[Daverz]

The Loricraft is $2235.  $2235 divided by 3000 records = .75 cents a record.. That's cheap to me 

If they let me pay on that installment plan, I'm there.  Otherwise that's a big chunk of change for the average music lover, particularly those who must justify costs to She Who Must Be Obeyed.

The KAB device will at least allow you to suck the fluids off your records.  Manual machines are too awkward to use for cleaning the records, but they are fine for just the drying part.  Do the scrubbing on a clean, soft, lint-free cloth on a flat surface.

I'd like second the recommendation of L'art du son fluid.  I also use Nitty Gritty Pure 2.  I tried the RRL fluids, but I didn't like the way they beaded up on records.

[ricmon]

Like most of these products you don't know what their made of but like the L'art du son fluid cleaner I found a biodegradable window cleaner at the Home Depot that works well.  Maybe it's the same stuff.

[gooberdude]

If this is going to turn into a cleaning fluid discussion, i have to throw oxigenated cleaners into the mix.   At Vinyl Asylum folks have said Oxy Clean works, haven't tried it.   At my work i tried some crazy new shit from Envirox, LLC.  its a PH neutral, hydrogen peroxide based cleaner that the City of Chicago is using in all the municipal bldgs...a big part in the Green effort here.     The stuff is nuts, but the gist is it lifts off all previous cleaning products and simply leaves the actual surface.  this stuff returns any & all surfaces to their original condition, and keeps 'em looking that way indefinitely.  it also uses engineered virgin orange oil extract....its the new fad in cleaning essentially, but safe as can be and highly effective.

a good example is inside our 12 elevators at work, all stainless steel.   keeping fingerprints off is impossible, but not with H2Orange2 (the actual product).   There's simply no surface left (after cleaning) that the oils in our fingertips can adhere too.   It works equally well on glass, like revolving doors.    Craziest part is when it dries, it dries to oxygen...nothing left behind.   no residue, film, surfactants, detergents...nada.     Our doors and elevs service a few thousand people each day too, pretty impressive.

this is a hard-core professional product, but others like it (ph neutral hydrogen peroxide) might be great for LP's.   Also, i just read that Walker came out with a new enzymatic cleaner.     i've been using enzymes to clean horrid dock and dumpster areas and as a prev maint regimine for keeping drains clear.   they work excellent and are typically safe assuming you don't drink it.

there's a whole line of PH neutral oxigenating products avail in most grocery stores called Seventh Generation...these seem to be Ok, though much less powerful than the Envirox products.  Bear in mind i'm talking about general cleaning, not specifically LP's.

[doug s.]

I leave my lid on. The dust it keeps off the record is more valuable than any extraneous vibration the lid incurs.

take the lid off, & get one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170127339506



i have used something similar, (1st a watts, then a keith monks); they work great.  +35 years on some of my records, & many still sound great, w/nothing but one of these li'l brushes, & hand washing/drying.  and most of my records that sound noisy were that way when i got them, even when brand-new...

doug s.

[DARTH AUDIO]

I beg to differ ChairGuy!! If you haven't used the Loricraft you don't know how good it is. I have used VPI, Nitty gritty in my 34 years of Vinyl playback and most of the cleaning fluids that are out there. The Loricraft quality isn't the Ball Jar but the motor and vaccum arm. It's a very quiet machine. The VPI 16.5 sound like an airplane engine!! I don't think $2235.00 is a lot of money for great vinyl playback If that's the case, then my spending $1595.00 for Walker Audio's Precision Motor Drive for my turntable and spending $1000.00 on a pair of Shakti Hallograph room Optimizer is totally insane?? It helps to be single and not have to answer to the ball and chain wife. And my girlfriend doesn't question my spending habits

[gooberdude]

You don't hear any improvement with the lid off?    that's wild.     

My deck is a lot cheaper than yours, but i had to remove the damn hinges also...

[Scott F.]

OK, I just got off the phone with Duane Goldman (The Disc Doctor). This guy knows more about the vinyl pressing process than anybody I know. To give you an idea, I had two or three questions that turned into an hour long conversation about vinyl production dating back to the days of shellac.

I have to preface this for those that think this might be a promotion for his products....well it isn't. During the hour long conversation his products didn't come up but twice. This conversation focused on the formulation and the history of vinyl production.

The Rob Doorack post over at AA is likely, quite true. He quoted a statement that Stan Ricker made when he said that Stan had never seen anyone spraying mold release agents onto the stampers at any of the plants he had visited. What wasn't divulged in that post was the fact that mold release agents are part of the formulation in the vinyl. They have been an integral part of the vinyl production process since the days of shellac.

In the early days the mold release agents (salts of stearic acids) were lead, cadmium, and nickel. When awareness came about that these heavy metals were harmful to people (in the early 60's) they changed the formulations to magnesium and potassium. These salts are still in use today as mold release agents. Duane also went on to say that it is literally impossible to press a record without the use of some form of mold release agent. If (and when) they did produce records without the use of release agents, it left the record surface severely pitted and unplayable.

The way the mold release agent works is that it is mixed in with the vinyl pellets along with other fillers, brought to a melting temperature, mixed and then applied to the stampers (that was a very simplistic explanation and no doubt I skipped over a few steps, so don't slam me please). After the record is pressed, there remains a very thin, uniform layer of of this mold release agent that remains on the outermost surface of the vinyl. This agent tends to be a waxy substance when it has cooled. This wax can (and will) deposit a gummy substance on your stylus if it is not removed by cleaning.

The proof there is quite easy to detect. Take a new, uncleaned record and play it a time or two. Take a jewelers loupe and look at your stylus. You'll see black stuff adhering to it. Then clean you record with a solution that removes the mold release agent and repeat the experiment. This time you shouldn't see the black stuff. Somewhere on the web I remember seeing microscopic views pre and post cleaning. The difference was quite obvious.

The rumor that mold release agents were sprayed on has some ring of truth to it. As Duane tells it, back around the time of the oil embargo days, several of the pressing plants experimented with spraying low molecular weight, silicone oils on the stampers to hasten the production process. Thing was, mold release agents were still used in the vinyl formulation. The silicone was used so that the production could be sped up. This allowed the stampers to be separated before the vinyl had properly cooled. This left one side of the vinyl exposed to room temp while the other side laid there on a hot stamper. This led to very poor sounding vinyl (according to Duane). In turn, after this experiment, they stopped using the silicone oils as an additional mold release agent and simply allowed the vinyl to cool down gracefully as it should have. I think this is where the rumor started about mold release agents being sprayed on.




In that hour conversation, Duane gave me more info than I could take notes on. I'm sure I missed something critical but I think I captured the essence of what he relayed. Please, you chemists out there, go easy on me. I'm not a ChemE, nor do I profess any knowledge of such. I am only parroting what Duane (he holds a PhD in Chemical Engineering) said to me. If you happen to dispute Duane's position, I'd suggest that you give him a call. He's in the book. Oh, and be sure to tell us what transpired, I for one would be interested to learn more.

Hope that helped (at least a little) 

[eric the red]

very interesting-thanks Scott

[gooberdude]

Thanks Scott!     

[TheChairGuy]

Cool Scott - thanks 

Darth - take a chill.  I was only directing our friend GooberMatt to an alternative to his EV-1 which is now a little loud...a higher end two stage canister vacuum. Most folks own uprights in the US...the suction from those is usually slight compared to canisters and loud at that.

He expressed dismay at a $2000+ expenditure on the Loricraft and I was at least pointing him in the direction of quieter and more efficient pick-up for his existing EV-1.

The Loricraft seems very sound operationally and it's very handsome...but I still think the Ball canning jar is cheesy for that kind of spread.  I trust that it works well indeed, tho 

[Psychicanimal]

...it also uses engineered virgin orange oil extract....its the new fad in cleaning essentially, but safe as can be and highly effective.

Imagine if it was made with virgin cherry extract!    aa