[contrarian]

The politically correct term for Hillbillies these days is 'Sons of the Soil'....

Actually, that should be "Sons/Daughters/Others of the Soil".

"Others" being the operative word here 

[WEEZ]

Hillbillies, fwiw, is a term generally limited to us 'southerners'... especially in the Appalachian region. There is a word commonly used to describe 'southerners' known as 'redneck'...but that is a 'mis-applied' term. Rednecks exist everywhere, I'm afraid. 

How 'bout we discuss vinyl and whether or not it's a PITA...not to be confused with "People For The "I"hical Treatment Of Animals" 

WEEZ

[boead]

Hillbillies, fwiw, is a term generally limited to us 'southerners'... especially in the Appalachian region. There is a word commonly used to describe 'southerners' known as 'redneck'...but that is a 'mis-applied' term. Rednecks exist everywhere..

I think the word "redneck" should be outlawed and from this point on, only be referred to as the "R" word.

How 'bout we discuss vinyl and whether or not it's a PITA...

To late for that I’m afraid. 

[woodsyi]

Rim,

I think I took too much distortion out of my analog setup, and it lost some magic because of it.

I set up my digital to have the perfect amount.

My guess is that's why you prefer vinyl and I prefer digital.

Now where do I add distortion 

You may have something there.  When it comes to personal taste, I am afraid I go for the gushing midrange bloom.  I had a few guys over and we just played LPs since they were going through my LPs anyway.  I had two tables running so there wouldn't be any down time.  I just like my Koetsu bloom more than the excellently balance sound of Ruby 3.  I can live with Ruby sound but Koetsu has something else.  Call it distortion if you must -- I love it. 

Getting back on topic, yes it is PITA but the reward can be quite orgasmic! 

[honesthoff]

Anyone catch Bill Maher's take on vinyl on his "New Rules" segment of Real Time?  Very similar to mine.  I sold 1900 albums, my Thorens TT, and all my other vinyl sundries about fifteen years ago.  Best decision I ever made (besides selling my boat).

[boead]

Anyone catch Bill Maher's take on vinyl on his "New Rules" segment of Real Time?  Very similar to mine.  I sold 1900 albums, my Thorens TT, and all my other vinyl sundries about fifteen years ago.  Best decision I ever made (besides selling my boat).

YES, very funny.

Something like stop telling him vinyl sounds warmer then CD’s. He was from that generation too and said vinyl just sounds - scratchy!

Also something about tossing a bong, hitting the tonearm and trashing his Foghat album and having to get up every 25 minutes to flip the album killing a romantic mood.


Yeah, I too have a hard time getting past surface noise. Kills the experience for me.

[Marbles]

Getting back on topic, yes it is PITA but the reward can be quite orgasmic! 

WOW    No wonder you like your TT...or is it love now?? 

[eric the red]

So what you and Woodsyi are saying Rob is as you get higher on the TT upgrade path, LPs start to lose their sense of magic (distortion) is what I am reading? In the age of $50k TTs and $5k cartridges, remember during the golden age of vinyl when a dual TT and a Shure cartridge (costing probable less than $1k) were high end? I wonder if the advances in TT technology is limited by the medium (LPs) Are higher rez TTs ruining the enjoyment of LPS just like high rez digital rigs make alot of cds unlistenable?

[woodsyi]

ETR,

I don't think the medium is limited.  It may not have the dynamic range on paper that even Redbook CD has, but it never gets chopped up in to bits to be reconstructed either.  I hear gorgeous voices and airy highs that extend beyond my hearing (which is limited) on good vinyl.  Oh, and I get thumping bass (on one of my TT).  I think the PITA aspect is that you have more misses than hits on used records.  I guarantee you that if you get the limited edition 45s at $50 a title, you won't hear any surface noise.  Unfortunately, most of us have to dig through the dumps to find a few that plays well.

[Marbles]

ETR, FOR ME, I like things to be as transparent as possible, but if I don't mix my components correctly, it can sound "sterile".   I have added a tube phono pre to get some of that magic..to add pleasing distortion. 

I also have a tubed based (regular) pre-amp.

The use of the word distortion by me is not a negative or positive thing, it can be either depending on what kind of distortion I am talking about.

Actually I think that the higher end has made it possible to tailor the sound more to each individuals liking.
You have to be a decent chef to mix the ingredients so it comes out right though, and that is a long expensive process (for me).  I have it mixed the way I like it for digital, I just need to work on my analog setup.

I'm afraid that in order to get the sound I want I may need to sell my cartridge and get a different one.
I just don't know which one that would be at this point and it's pretty hard to get loaners for this purpose.

[gooberdude]

LP's have a smaller frequency range than redbook CD's?   is this true?   I thought Redbook was limited to 20Hz - 20Khz.

[ohenry]

I guarantee you that if you get the limited edition 45s at $50 a title, you won't hear any surface noise.  Unfortunately, most of us have to dig through the dumps to find a few that plays well.

But hey, it's good karma to give an old abandoned lp new life. I'll be at the Salvation Army store sifting through trash again today at lunchtime.  I usually mange to find something that's pristine and to my liking.

[Scott F.]

I've gone up the high end turntable path and like Marbles, there are a few things that seem to hold true.

The more money you spend, the higher the resolution (the more detail that is pulled from the grooves). Some of this is good, some isn't. When you hit a certain point, you no longer hear surface noise (or very, very little). The sound now becomes very similar to the master tapes. It's sort of an eerie experience. Gone is most of that familiar sound of vinyl and its replaced by this clean and exacting reproduction. It is far more digital-like than you might imagine. Vinyl still does some things better than digital in its reproduction (at least IMO). There are some distinct advantages to digital too.

Hey Marbles, heres a thought (that actually worked for me), When you go shopping for a new cart, why not consider looking at something mid-priced rather than another high end cart. For me, the high dollar carts I've played with tend to hold to that rule of the more you spend, the more analytical the presentation gets (not exactly a truism but close). Try stepping back and looking at say a $500 to $1000 cart. At the about $500 range the Dynavector 20XH is my all time favorite. It does a fine job of detail retrieval, tracks well, has very low surface noise, has great bass and loads of 'boogie factor'. If you want to take a step up and get a bit more detail with even more of those same qualities, the Cartridge Man's Music Maker at $1100 might be right up your alley.

I get what the high end cartridges (read = mainly low output, super expensive carts) are doing. More openness, detail retrieval all that stuff but somewhere along the way the emotional involvement gets lost. Goofy as it sounds, I listen to my $500 DV 20XH way more than I do my expensive low output VDH. It is just more involving. The scary part is that the DV is the least expensive part of my analog rig but it sure makes it sing.



For the record, I love both formats. I listen to more digital strictly because it's more convenient.

[Marbles]

Scott, THANK YOU..that is very helpful info.

[BobM]

Given relatively decent isolation of a turntable (motor, footfalls, plinth, etc) I would have to say that the "silent groove" thang you hear on expensive turntables is probably due more to the arm and cartridge than anything else, except perhaps cleaning the records. I went from an Audioquest PT6 to a Moerch DP6 tonearm and yes, thinkg got better all over, but mostly quieter.

I also run a Dynavector 20X-H cartridge on it, after replacing my Grado Platinum. I think it's a good middleground cartridge that has speed and transparency, but keeps the music alive with boogie factor and some warmth (but not as much as the Grado, for sure).

Good luck,
Bob

[woodsyi]

LP's have a smaller frequency range than redbook CD's?   is this true?   I thought Redbook was limited to 20Hz - 20Khz.

I have read that frequency range for vinyl can go as low as 7Hz to high of 25KHz but I don't think you get that in practice especially with RIAA eq for bass.  Dynamic range of 60 dB to 75 dB is definitely less than 96 dB with Redbook.  In practice, I can't think of music that would require 96 dB range.   Who would have the gear to play that anyway?

[TheChairGuy]

Kinda' following Scott's sentiments there...

I am by no means versed in every cartridge out there - but I am left wanting for more with all moving coils thus far. No matter which one tried (all high output's thus far) they all sound very, very clear - but, quite unnatural 

(woodsyi - I'm hoping to mount your Benz soon here....thanks)

For the same given output level, moving coils have much lower inductance and DC resistance.  So, for us audiophools, we're often drawn in by the vastly lower coil noise and detail as a result of these electrical realities...it gives us the 'chills' when listening.  But, it is really unnatural sounding.

Joseph Grado, who held many patents on moving coil designs believed MC's to be inherently flawed mechanically...tho superior electrically.  But, he felt that the advantages of the electrical superiority were vastly outweighed by the inherently flawed mechanical stature that could never be fixed (moving coil makers try by various means of damping internally, which is why makign a high end moving coil is so time-consuming...it's largely tuning the device specifically as mass product and uniformity is near impossible to small tolerances otherwise) . To that point, that's what I hear each time I A vs. B a moving coil versus and my cheap and cheerful Grado's: they aren't as quiet, they don't reveal the detail, they don't create that amazing soundstage....but they are full, robust, sound more natural/real and I'm just smiling when I hear them (despite their own limitations).

The $500 Reference Sonata is the place to start (the $300 Platinum uses a too cheap bonded stylus...the Sonata uses a vastly better nude elliptical...and I know nude is what YOU want  )

Rob, honestly, I think what you might have done is traveled so far up the vinyl chain with your TT and phono preamp (and the rest of your system), have extracted so much resolution, that you are hearing all the inherent flaws of your here-to-for previously loved moving coil. 

The Cartridge Man's Modded Grado is based on the Prestige Silver - something you can buy for US$150.  You can get it re-tipped at www.sound-smith.com for $250-350 and have a cartridge as good, or better, for less.  But, it's a 4.0mv output and has 45mH of inductance and lots more DC resistance than any moving coil yet made...so it will be lacking in detail, slow sounding, etc, relative to your MC.  As you already have a good step-up, I'd try a 0.5mv Grado Woodie (every model but the top-of-the-line goes for less than Cartridge Man's)....the 0.5mv models have much lower inductance figures and less DC resistance...so you'll maintain some of the detail, blackness, soundstaging, high frequency production, and speed of your MC -  but you'll have fun back in your LP's 

Try a $40 Black or $60 Grado Green first as a throw-away to see if you're on the right trail...

Hey, fyi, I'm not dissing anyone's choice in cartridges here - I'm just stating electrical realities of Moving Coil vs. Moving Iron (specifically, Grado) designs and trying to help Marbles reach a place of satisfaction again with his vinyl rig. 

Vinyl is a PITA....made a lot better by auto-return for me 

[woodsyi]

I'm afraid that in order to get the sound I want I may need to sell my cartridge and get a different one.
I just don't know which one that would be at this point and it's pretty hard to get loaners for this purpose.

I tell you what, Rob.  I got my silent PC (thanks DOS) coming in next week and my time with Wayne's Burson buffer is running out.  I need to do a serious comp between my various PC based digital sources.  While I am busy with all that, I can lend you 3 carts to compare to yours and see if your theory is right:  Benz-Micro Ruby 3 LO, B-M Glider 2 LO, and Koetsu Rosewood Sig.  I have to warn you SME IV arm/Koetsu combination can become addictive.  I have the original boxes and I will ship insured.  I trust you will take good care of them but you let me know if you want to bother with the experiment or not. 

[lcrim]

John et al:
Until you've listened to a good LOMC at length, it is unfair to criticize the presentation of moving coils viz a viz MM especially the poorly tracking Grado's.  I think that HOMC exist as a marketing solution rather than aesthetic one.  Certainly, execution is everything but theoretically LOMC should sound the best because inherently the design is superior.  The lower the mass that must accelerate in response to the movement of the cantilever, the better the potential for quality sound retrieval.
The groove noise is diminished the farther up the ladder of quality you go, but it can't ever be totally eliminated.  If that noise is bothersome then vinyl is probably not for you (anymore.)  I don't think its on the same order as getting comfortable walking with a pebble in your shoe but in general there are records I listen to now with a better cartridge where the surface noise previously was off putting (w/ a lesser cartridge.)
Listen for a while w/ the old MC3 and I think you'll change your tune.

[TheChairGuy]

Could be, Larry.

I've made the mistake in various endeavors in my life of pre-supposing something without full investigation before    Fortunately, I was born much of an ego-maniac (loudmouth, maybe, but not ego-maniac ) - so if I'm wrong later upon fuller investigation, I generally fess up to it.

I bought a vintage Mitsubishi DA-C20 Preamp/Tuner (dual mono and reportedly good MC step-up stage) to use on the ole' MC3.  I needed a new tuner anyhow, so it won't be wasted even if the preamp section is not great.

John