[Dan Banquer]

I don't like jazz. Actually, I can't stand most of it.

(I was just reading WindChaser's post above and it occurred to me that in some circles I would be therefore be considered culturally ignorant.)

Not by anyone relevant.   

As for Jazz, I don't much care for Norah Jones and Diana Krall.  I find them dull and boring.  No doubt their pretty poses helped create bandwagon popularity with "Come Away With Me" and the "Look of Love" albums.  Those are two grossly overrated discs.  I think a lot of people pretend to be culturally sophisticated and therefore bought these yawners.  I know my sister did and never even bothered to listen it. 

Now by contrast Patricia Barbara and Holly Cole are much more interesting and engaging.  I've seen Holly Cole live and loved every minute of it.  If only Patricia would come around here.

If you go back to some of Diana Krall's early recordings, she does a version of "Peel me a Grape" that will...er.........ah............. knock your socks off. Well; it does that and then some for me.
If I remember correctly, that was recorded on the Impulse label.

[Wind Chaser]

I was just listening to Sarah Vaughn with Clifford Brown. Krall is not even in the same league!

Sarah V has range and the ability to sing, Diana K is like a sedative.

[Wind Chaser]

If you go back to some of Diana Krall's early recordings, she does a version of "Peel me a Grape" that will...er.........ah............. knock your socks off. Well; it does that and then some for me.
If I remember correctly, that was recorded on the Impulse label.

I've only heard that song covered by Karen Young.  She has a good voice and range but her version doesn't do much for me.

[Wind Chaser]

Dear Moderator,

 I'm becoming increasingly annoyed, irritated and downright angry with the way Windchaser "carries himself " with his comments on music. Is it just me?

Frank,

That's too bad.  You can always skip over my comments or leave or medicate etc.

[Dan Banquer]

Dear Moderator,

 I'm becoming increasingly annoyed, irritated and downright angry with the way Windchaser "carries himself " with his comments on music. Is it just me?

Frank,

That's too bad.  You can always skip over my comments or leave or medicate etc.

Well then Windchaser; please apply the same to my posts.
               d.b.

[TheChairGuy]

Dear Moderator,

I'm becoming increasingly annoyed, irritated and downright angry with the way Windchaser "carries himself " with his comments on music. Is it just me?

Frank

Yeah, it's mostly just you.  Maybe I'm missing some intonation behind what Wind Chaser is saying (and, btw, the two of us have had scraps between one another here on AC not long ago), but what is bothering you?  That he can't stand classical and yet he still considers him to be a music enthusiast or audiophile?

I think he's expressed himself well enough.  We're allowed to express beliefs her at AC as long as it's not demeaning to anyone.  Nothing I've read from Wind Chaser is anything remotely resembling that in this topic.

John / Moderator

[PhilNYC]

I don't like jazz. Actually, I can't stand most of it.

As long as you've made the effort to listen to a wide range of jazz genres, I have no issue with this (same goes for a wide range of classical genres).

[bprice2]

What if one were to place a world class musician unbeknownst to anyone in a room with a group of AudioCircle members?  Do you think any of them would pay any attention, or would their arguing completely drown out the performer?  Hmmm...

[PhilNYC]

As for Jazz, I don't much care for Norah Jones and Diana Krall.  I find them dull and boring.  No doubt their pretty poses helped create bandwagon popularity with "Come Away With Me" and the "Look of Love" albums.  Those are two grossly overrated discs.  I think a lot of people pretend to be culturally sophisticated and therefore bought these yawners.  I know my sister did and never even bothered to listen it. 

Now by contrast Patricia Barbara and Holly Cole are much more interesting and engaging.  I've seen Holly Cole live and loved every minute of it.  If only Patricia would come around here.

With the exception of one or two albums, I agree that Diana Krall is bland and boring.  I don't consider Norah Jones to be a jazz singer (her music if far more country-influenced than jazz).  Patricia Barber is too "out there" for me, and I'm not familiar with Holly Cole...

My favorite female jazz singer is Dianne Reeves (despite our overplaying her "Feeling of Jazz" at our NY Raves!)...very much in the style of older singers like Sarah Vaughn and Ella Fitzgerald, but singing more modern songs...

[PhilNYC]

Before anyone dumps abuse on me, I'm 100% 10th generation white-trash American. Iv'e seen crowds of people in many cities here in europe gather round a musician, in the middle of a busy day/sidewalk/subway to take it in. In Paris, places in the metro have to be reserved and there is a selection for "street musicians". It's become part of the Parisian culture. If I were a great musician I would not be spending my time doing what he did, even if the experience was interesting, the conclusion was fore-gone. America, with its steady diet of sugar, salt, starch, money, ambition is maybe just a bit deaf?

If you go to places like NYC, LA, New Orleans, Miami, Boston...I think you'll find that street musicians get very good audiences.  In fact, in the NYC subway system, musicians actually have to audition for the top locations...

[PhilNYC]

Maybe I'm missing some intonation behind what Wind Chaser is saying (and, btw, the two of us have had scraps between one another here on AC not long ago), but what is bothering you?  That he can't stand classical and yet he still considers him to be a music enthusiast or audiophile?

For the record, I don't have a problem with it (and am not so thin-skinned to be offended by it), but I think that the use of words like "crap" to describe entire genres of music that many people here are very fond of could certainly be an "intonation" that is annoying to those people...

[rajacat]

As for Jazz, I don't much care for Norah Jones and Diana Krall.  I find them dull and boring.  No doubt their pretty poses helped create bandwagon popularity with "Come Away With Me" and the "Look of Love" albums.  Those are two grossly overrated discs.  I think a lot of people pretend to be culturally sophisticated and therefore bought these yawners.  I know my sister did and never even bothered to listen it. 

Now by contrast Patricia Barbara and Holly Cole are much more interesting and engaging.  I've seen Holly Cole live and loved every minute of it.  If only Patricia would come around here.

With the exception of one or two albums, I agree that Diana Krall is bland and boring.  I don't consider Norah Jones to be a jazz singer (her music if far more country-influenced than jazz).  Patricia Barber is too "out there" for me, and I'm not familiar with Holly Cole...

My favorite female jazz singer is Dianne Reeves (despite our overplaying her "Feeling of Jazz" at our NY Raves!)...very much in the style of older singers like Sarah Vaughn and Ella Fitzgerald, but singing more modern songs...

I like "out there" jazz. The cutting edge or close to it is what keeps the art alive.  Musicians pushing the limits and creating their own style keeps the genre fresh and relevant.

Raj

[woodsyi]

I was at a John Scofield Trio concert last night.  There were some pieces that were "far out."  I was not comfortable with it but I appreciated the effort and the virtuoso playing.  You have to keep listening to new stuff to find out what you like or will come to like.

[TheChairGuy]

Phil, Wind Chaser didn't say an entire genre is crap...he said this (exactly this)

That has been my point right from the start.  I also pointed out Dan B's implication of of those who disdain or pass by this form of music as cultural ignorance as load of crap.  Dan B is entitled like what he wants.  But when he stated "music education and music appreciation in this country is near dead" because the average person doesn't have time or the interest to listen to Josh Bell posing as a some poor sod looking for a handout is plain stupid.

BTW, I'm probably old enough to be your father...

He is saying that Dan Banquer's statement that disdain for classical music can be construed as culturally ignorant....he believes THAT to be a load of crap.  He's not saying that anyone that listens to classical...is listening to crap music

It's a big difference in the way you sling one's crap around 

Clearly, Mr. Wind Chaser doesn't spend a lot of time to round off too many of the edges in his statements....but I'm not finding them particularly demeaning or pompous either.

He's not shouting down anyone or telling them they ought to listen to 'good' music - whatever the heck that is. They're just factual beliefs - to him - and I think he has the right to air them as he has.  If you, or fab/Frank, or lcrim are pained by what he says about classical...just pay no attention to it.  He's not demanding you listen to him or anything.

Again, I may be missing some intonation here that others hear and feel....but I just hear a guy that doesn't like classical and doesn't want to be considered culturally ignorant just because of that.

[PhilNYC]

Ok, I mixed up his "crap" comment with this:

There's a whole realm of music (not too mention competent musicians who'd take umbrage to your statement) beyond this ancient and unwanted form of melodic noise.

Again, I don't personally have a problem with it...but it can certainly rub someone the wrong way to call "unwanted noise" a genre of music that that someone might have an emotional attachment to.  I mean...audiophiles get into all sorts of flame wars when someone says "I think brand X component is terrible" to someone who owns that component...?

[shep]

I stand corrected! Been away too long...

[Diapason]

Well, having been a long-time lurker I've decided it's finally time to jump into the fray. I hope I haven't chosen the wrong thread for my first post. 

I'm sympathetic to the view that music education and appreciation is going down the toilet, but as others have noted, I don't think this particular "study" proves anything. I found the article uninteresting and overblown in the extreme, actually, and the general hand-wringing that goes with it does nothing to further the cause of classical music. The message from this is that to be truly "cultured" you have to be willing to miss your morning train, arrive late for work, and basically step outside of the routine that ensures your life runs smoothly every day. Yep, that should go a long way towards alienating the masses! The real world just doesn't work that way...

Having said that, I also despair of the short shrift given to classical (I hate that expression!) music. In my opinion, pop/rock is to music as pop-up-books are to literature. You may enjoy it (and I regularly do myself) but it's hardly great art. Whether you want to listen to art or not is entirely your prerogative, but most people who learn about music, or who study an instrument seriously, end up admiring classical more than any other genre. Note I didn't say liking it more, that varies.

Of course, such understanding takes effort, and many people have neither the inclination, time nor opportunity to get to this level. In a similar vein, I don't have the time or inclination to read Shakespeare. The difference is, while at school I learned a little about Shakespeare, we studied some plays and sonnets, and I have a passing understanding why those in the know consider such things to be of high quality. Unfortunately, music is not afforded the same luxury, so most people have never studied Bach's Goldberg Variations, and have no real understanding of why others admire it. Charges of elitism follow naturally, because it's just not something that everybody learns. Historically, only those from higher income brackets could afford an education that included such things. As much as I'd love to see music study become an integral part of the school curriculum it's not going to happen anytime soon.

Of course, it's possible to buy a classical CD for about the same as a rock/pop CD, so the barrier to entry isn't here. Anyone can listen to classical music with ease, so comparisons of tickets prices to Symphony vs. Rock concerts are, to me, irrelevant. But unless you happen to like the sound for its own sake (and many don't) your first listen to the Goldbergs is going to be pretty boring. Without some guidance, it's very hard to get past that. Not so for your standard issue 4/4, 3-chord, repetitive verse-chorus-verse structure. Most people know that language. This isn't art, it's entertainment, and I'm starting to think there's no point getting upset over it. There are still plenty of people flying the flag for serious music, and it will always be with us. I just wish that the "Average Joe" had a little more respect for the art and expertise involved, whether they understand it or not, and that people weren't quite so quick to label such music as old-fashioned or boring. This, however, cuts both ways and I think a modicum of respect for the musical tastes of others is a good idea across the board.

Si

[woodsyi]

Good post Diapason.  Now that your cherry is popped, keep posting away. 

I also think a lot of appreciation for art comes with life's experience.  The listener just kind of have to be ready to be rocked by arts like Wagner's Ring Cycle, Dostoyevski's Brother's Karamazov, King Lear, etc. etc.  I heard/read/saw these many times without appreciating them in the past.  Now, into my 5th decade, I think they are great. Furthermore, there is more to them and I look forward to getting more out of them in the future. 

Don't get me wrong, I like pop, too.  There is time and place for everything under the sun.  I dig Carpenters on a rainy day.   Even in popolar music, do you see how musicians weird out as they mature?  I think they are just looking to enlarge their pallete to express more as their experience grows with age.  Except Boston.    By the way, Billie Holliday's voice is a complete orchestra in itself.  Oh, and Joshua Bell is a Prima Don(na)....

[Daygloworange]

Yup. Nice post Diapason. Why more people don't appreciate Classical music could be a lengthy discussion for sure, and many of the points you bring up are very valid, and as others have as well.

For example, I'm a Classical music lover. Have been for a long time. I don't enjoy all Classical though. And I can understand why not everyone would. I have the same disdain for Opera, that some others have for the entire Classical genre. I can't handle it at all. It's intolerable to me. But not to an Opera lover, to them it's sublime.

So I can surely understand others who feels the same about different things than I do. Because of my Classical training, I couldn't handle Jazz at all. The dissonance, and obscuring of tonalities, was to much for my ear to bear. My ear was to rigidly tempered to Diatonic melody. When my listening tastes expanded into more modern forms of Classical, where they became much more adventurous with modulation and chromatics, and so forth, my ear became more relaxed and flexible. This has enabled me to enjoy a whole segment of what constitues Jazz. Not all Jazz. But quite a bit. The real "out there" Jazz is too much for me though.

Cheers

 

[rajacat]

If it wasn't for cutting edge musicians and composers we would all be listening to "oldies but goodies" and "greatest hits". Not all of the the avant guard is good or eventually becomes mainstream but I think it is like the soul of music and without it the art form would become stagnant and eventually whither and die . It is good to keep an open mind and push yourself to understand and grow.

Raj