[Bemopti123]

Check this interesting link out..

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/02/asia/china.php?page=3

I appreciate any sort of music that is timeless.  One of my favorite albums is the Silk Road String with Yo-Yo Ma, and yes, I also agree with some that some classical music is rather long and tedious.  But then, I have forced myself to "understand" what the composers have said, because it is rather simple to attempt to understand a story or an argument by listening to short pieces.  There are times where a certain "point" can be made simply and elegantly, and there are times when an statement needs to be made long and somewhat hard to understand.

I 100% agree that people in the present times might not be economically able to afford quality seats to orchestras, but then, you would be really surprised at what some groups of people are able to afford, even in their dire economic conditions. 

I disagree with the statement that people of color are being given lesser opportunities to higher education and the like.  America is filled with opportunities...see immigrants with poor means are able to come to the US with lack of a education, but have their children achieve higher than many native born. 

The fact is that some decide to take the opportunity to get an education and some others complain about how the environment is not conductive at them getting an education. 

 

[rajacat]

I think that the ticket prices for big name pop groups often make a symphony seem cheap. For example, Johnny Winters, a blues guitarist well past his prime, charged a $100 cover at our local club. I'm not sure what the prices for Stones and others are presently but I bet that they are at least as high, probably much higher, than a seat at the local symphony and you would be much farther from the band than you would be at a symphony. Last pop concert we got tickets for had huge TV screens so that you could actually see the performer instead of just a speck.

Raj

[Dan Banquer]

According to the local news they were getting 225.00 each for Red Sox tickets today. The BSO is cheap by comparison, because any seat in Symphony Hall is good for listening, even the third balcony.
         d.b.

[chadh]

I disagree with the statement that people of color are being given lesser opportunities to higher education and the like.  America is filled with opportunities...see immigrants with poor means are able to come to the US with lack of a education, but have their children achieve higher than many native born. 

The fact is that some decide to take the opportunity to get an education and some others complain about how the environment is not conductive at them getting an education. 

 

Interesting.  Here are some figures.  They give you percentage of graduate students and percentage of doctoral students at various schools of music by race.

Julliard grad students
African American: 6%  Hispanic 2%

Julliard doctoral students
African American: 0%  Hispanic 0%


Northwestern School of Music grad students
African American: 4%  Hispanic: 3%

Northwestern Doctoral Students
African American & Hispanic: 4%


Harvard graduate students
African American: 6%   Hispanic 5%

Harvard Doctoral Students
African American and Hispanic: 21%


New England Conservatory of Music graduate students
African American: 3%   Hispanic: 3%

New England Conservatory of Music doctoral students
African American 0% Hispanic: 0%

Michigan State graduate students
African American: 8%  Hispanic: 4%

Michigan State doctoral students
African American and Hispanic: 26%

Only Harvard and Michigan State doctoral programs have African American or Hispanic representation that looks anything like the representation of the general American population.  And these are far and away the two music schools with the highest representation of these minority groups.  Note:  even these two schools severely under-represent these minority groups in the general graduate student population.

The following music schools all report 0% of their doctoral programs to be either African American or Hispanic:
Ball State
Brandeis
Boston University
Brown
Case Western
Cleveland
Columbia
Cornell
Kent State
Princeton
SUNY Buffalo
Stanford
Texas Tech
Julliard
The New England Conservatory of Music
The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
University of Alabama
UC-Davis
UC-San Diego
Univ. of Colorado at Bolder
U of Connecticut
U of Florida
U of Georgia
U of Houston
U of Memphis
U of Minnesota
U of Nebraska
UNLV
UNC - Chapel Hill
U of Utah
Wash U
WVU

That's 32 schools out of a list of 83.  Only 11 schools reported 5% or more of their doctoral program African American or Hispanic.  And for reference, African Americans represented about 12.5% of the US population in the 2004 census, while Hispanics accounted for a further 13%.

Chad

[chadh]

I think that the ticket prices for big name pop groups often make a symphony seem cheap. For example, Johnny Winters, a blues guitarist well past his prime, charged a $100 cover at our local club. I'm not sure what the prices for Stones and others are presently but I bet that they are at least as high, probably much higher, than a seat at the local symphony and you would be much farther from the band than you would be at a symphony. Last pop concert we got tickets for had huge TV screens so that you could actually see the performer instead of just a speck.

Raj

For $5 cover charge, I can go to a bar in just about any small town in the US and hear a local band play on any weekend of the year.  I can have a beer while I listen, dance with cute women - I could even smoke if I really wanted to.

In the majority of small towns in the US, I can NEVER go to hear the Symphony.  I could travel to a nearby city and hear the symphony, but in the majority of cities, that might mean a handful of opportunities each year.  I could not drink during the performance.  I could not dance with cute women.  And I couldn't smoke, even if I wanted to.

I live in Ann Arbor, and we get WAY more than our fair share of classical performances.  Alas, none of them cost me $9 a head.  Even if I want to hear the University student opera, it's expensive.  And I can assure you, if I wanted to hear John Williams (the guitarist, not the film score composer) play his single concert for the year, not only would I have a small chance of getting tickets, but I would have to pay way more than the price of heading to Tiger Stadium to catch one of the ...what?  approximately 88 games they'll play there this year.

You guys will need to do way better to convince me that classical music is cheap. 

Chad

[rajacat]

The main reason that the homogenized music we have today is popular is because of the control of the media in a relatively few hands in this country. Music is looked as a product, like cars, toothpaste,etc., and a profit center for these huge conglomerates. The musicians have been complaining for years about the ruthless tactics of the major music labels which force them to compromise their art to conform to the status quo,  and business profit models. I think that the internet is great for musicians because it creates distribution possibilities for individual musicians without going through the homogenization process that the major labels favor.

Chad, if you want to hear some "classical" music for free just check with your local church many which host serious music concerts on a regular basis.

Raj

[nathanm]

Nevermind dancing and drinking, at the symphony you can't even MOVE period.  Even if the music is really moving you one cannot make any manner of gesture, air-conducting, air-instrumenting or the like.  I remember a concert in a hall I attended years ago where the jazz band was really cookin' but of course you just had to sit there calmy in your chair.  Orchestral performance seems to demand zero audience participation.  However, I do really like the fact that everyone is quiet during the song.  That part should be adopted in the popular music area.

[James Romeyn]

The main reason that the homogenized music we have today is popular is because of the control of the media in a relatively few hands in this country. Music is looked as a product, like cars, toothpaste,etc., and a profit center for these huge conglomerates. The musicians have been complaining for years about the...major music labels which force them to compromise their art to conform to the status quo, and business profit models...

"...I've been Roy Haley'd & Art Garfunkel'd..."
P. Simon

[Bemopti123]

Good research on the lack of blacks and hispanics in higher ed PhD programs:

Is there are chart for Asians in Medical and Phds in the same schools?

It might give a complete perspective on what is going on in the different programs across the US and the US in general. 

BTW, the definition that the government has for Hispanics is in reality a little too simplistic.  Hispanics can be of Caucasian, African, Native American or Asian origin. 

[rajacat]

Another reason interest in "classical" music is declining is television with its asinine commercials every couple minutes has created a couple of generations of attention deficit people who can't concentrate on one subject for more than 5 minutes.

Raj

[Papajin]

Another reason interest

What were you saying Raj?   ^ that's as far as I got. 

[Thebiker]

Chad,
Couldn't tell you what % of who was at the BSO when my daughter went, I wasn't there.  But like anyone that lives in a major metro area knows, parking is a major issue, so she took the MBTA (local mass transit) to Symphony Hall.

I will grant that in most small towns you can find a bar with a local band and a low cover charge.  And probably find someone to dance with and have a couple of drinks....and by the time you are done, spent $30-$40.  The BSO 2nd balcony has seats for as little as $25-$30, and there are no bad seats in Symphony Hall, the acoustics are amazing.

And for me to go to the symphony, I drive 65 miles each way, I live in southern New Hampshire.  So I pick and choose the performances that I go to, usually 4 or 5 per season.  I have no idea what the racial % may be because it is not something I keep track of.  I do know that it is not exclusively white.  As to my statement

So kindly take what sounds like the attitude of a bigot and re-think things.

it was based on your statement

Now, classical music is the domain of rich white people almost exclusively

.  Now if you tell me there were no bigotted overtones there, I believe you.  But that is also why my statement was

sounds like

.

I can tell you that I don't qualify as "rich" either, although I have finally achieved comfortable.  I put myself through school, while working full time.  I have spent most of my adult life working at least 2 jobs to get by.......but I like classical music, and jazz and blues, and rock, and blue grass.....hell, I just like good music, regardless of the genre.

The one thing that sets me off is generalization of anyone or group.  People are individuals and should be treated and respected as such. 

Your opinion of classical music is your own and you are obviously entitled to it.  I agree it is not as accessible as popular music.  Much of that is because not as many people have had the opportunity to hear it as more than just "elevator music".  Turn on the radio and you find multiple pop/rock/rap/hip hop/country stations.  A very few jazz stations and even fewer classical stations.  You can't learn to appreciate what you don't get exposed to. 

Cost is not the issue.  Most classical concerts have tickets in the $25 range.  Most rock concerts are more.  Rock sells out, classical doesn't.  All about exposure.  School budget cut backs have eliminated music class and art.  It makes the world a poorer place.

[Dan Banquer]

Chad; As a relatively active jazz fan I can tell you this: There are very African American people that attend Jazz concerts in the Boston area. I don't think the answer is economic, I think it's something else, and I strongly suspect education and upbringing. BTW: one of the definitions given for jazz is African American classical music.
      d.b.

[JohnR]

I don't think classical is necessarily more expensive than anything else. I saw the Philadelphia Symphony conducted by Gergiev perform this February for $10. OK so I had to line up a few hours earlier, but hey it was Saturday...

Having said that, I would otherwise have been happy to pay $85 or whatever it was for a ticket. Still, you know what, I was given a ticket to the Eagles Last Gasp a couple of years ago (work connection) and apparently that ticket was worth A$300 (about US$250). So.. apples to oranges? Maybe. But really, there are a lot of young and/or local performers in all genres that are not expensive, you just have to look a bit (in my experience, I think someone said this earlier as well).

[TheChairGuy]

I tried like hell to embrace classical music for years, but until age 41 or so, really couldn't care for it.  My mind wasn't ready to embrace it as an enjoyable form of entertainment/sound.

I grew up with the sounds of classical and big band in my house - my Dad played it all the time. But, despite being surrounded by it, despite having a Julliard-trained best buddy piano player growing up (and attending his concerts, too), I just never embraced it until relatively recently. Rock, even heavy metal was my thing...and I could handle some jazz, too.

Now, you'd think I'd be the target profile of a lifelong, avid classical music fan:  ie., I grew up in a large metropolitan area with access to FM stations and many concerts (free and not-so-free), I am from the product of a classical music loving parents, I'm caucasian, 16 years of secondary education, married to a women with post-graduate degrees, high fidelity enthusiast, middle class upbringing with access to good public schools where music appreciation was taught (by a classical-loving social studies teacher in 11th grade - god bless ya' Mr. Perlunger! ).

And yet, I wasn't ready to embrace it until I was ready to.  Now I have with both feet..it is my vastly preferred form of music. 

I think it boils down to the fact that there are many more things distracting us in life now.  Electronic doo-hickies hooked up to email and the internet ringing in private and public places, Nintendo/Playstation, the internet itself, increased traffic in many metro areas as auto's become more affordable for the masses, the act of driving the car itself, cable, and on-and-on.  Of course, the normal things in life are still there to take care of: sleeping, bathing, brushing your teeth, doctor and dental visits, raising kids, etc.

I don't think it's so much of a sad commentary that there is no appreciation of higher forms of music these days....I just think it's the crowding out effect at play.  Something's gotta' give (in fact, many somethings most likely) and among them is classical and jazz as a wide-scale appreciated music form.  It's not going away, but it's share of audience is likely shrinking for perpetuity until lives get simpler 

[Wind Chaser]

I tried like hell to embrace classical music for years...

Me too, but I prefer silence.  I just can't connect with classical, on any level.  It's just noise, but it's hardly has offensive as rap, techno, hardcore punk, country, opera and jazz fusion.  Those are about the worst forms of noise disguised as music.  That being said, I do have a very diverse taste in music.

[rajacat]

Do you like music?

Raj

[Daygloworange]

Me too, but I prefer silence.  I just can't connect with classical, on any level.  It's just noise,

Noise? Is that the best way you can categorize one of the most harmonious forms of music?

Very interesting.

Cheers

[rajacat]

I believe that the harmonic structure of so-called classical music provides the structural basis for most Western popular music. Just noise?

Raj

[fredgarvin]

I tried like hell to embrace classical music for years...

Me too, but I prefer silence.  I just can't connect with classical, on any level.  It's just noise, but it's hardly has offensive as rap, techno, hardcore punk, country, opera and jazz fusion.  Those are about the worst forms of noise disguised as music.  That being said, I do have a very diverse taste in music.

Where does the 'taste' come in ?