vinyl vs digital perfomance $

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #60 on:** 16 Mar 2007, 01:24 am »

Chairguy,

I don't think of record cleaning as tedious, I find it rather relaxing, but then, I'm kinda strange, I guess. It's all in how you look at it.

As far as treble response with vinyl as opposed to digital, I think there's more to it than that. There seems to be an organic "rightness" or purity with vinyl that digital just doesn't have. Good digital is close, but 20+ years after the introduction of the CD, that says something right there. Vinyl can be done "on the cheap" and still beat digital at multiples of the price of admission to vinyl. As an example, try an old Dual 1229 with a Grado Green. A thirty plus year old table with a low end cartridge, and it sings like a bird.

I totally agree with you as far as convenience is concerned. That can't be disputed. Sonically, digital has improved immensely, but it is still not "there" yet. I'm not sure it ever can be.

Cleaning and proper setup will eliminate most "clicks and pops" so that's pretty much a moot point.

And before I get accused by someone of being a "vinyl snob", my collection is pretty much split 50/50 between vinyl and the CDs at roughly 1000 of each.

rajacat · « **Reply #61 on:** 16 Mar 2007, 01:33 am »

Yeah but computer audio is different than using a cd player for a source.....it is better.

It is also in its infancy and certainly you can't expect it to not improve in the coming years whereas vinyl has already reached its zenith. So if one was just starting in audio it would make sense to invest in a developing technology rather than going old tech.

In The Groove · « **Reply #62 on:** 16 Mar 2007, 01:47 am »

Quote

Of course there are many who think that vinyl is a dying format and might advise, rather than investing mucho $'s in a turntable, esoteric arms and carts, that it would be better to invest in SOTA digital gear which is getting better all the time.

Wait a minute, I thought SOTA made turntables.

bprice2 · « **Reply #63 on:** 16 Mar 2007, 01:59 am »

I just jumped into the audio thing about a year ago and have the best system I've ever heard. I guess I'm lucky...I have no idea what I'm missing. I can't believe playback could be any better than through the modded SB3 I own. One thing I do know is the recording quality of various cd's is...varying.

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #64 on:** 16 Mar 2007, 02:10 am »

Raj,

I see your point. But there are a few things I still don't get, especially when it comes to the Squeezebox aspect. I'll make this clear up front: I have yet to hear one, Although ScottF and others swear by it.

OK, I buy a CD, I run EAC and put it on a hard drive, then I use a SB to put the tunes from my computer through my system. I'm not seeing the advantage here. I still bought a CD, and play it in my computer, and need to get the SB and presumably, I'm going to want all the mods.

Where's the advantage? I still have a CD to store. There is still jitter, etc when I copy the CD to my hard drive. I'm going to need 2 hard drives, at least, in case one goes down. The advantage is exactly...what??

I'm not stupid, or trying to be argumentative, but I just don't get it.

It can't be that I want to download the music, MP3's and the like. My copies would most likely be in WAV anyway. I can't see the convenience of having it all on my computer, and the time involved to set it all up. I don't need computer files for my music. I have a really neat invention to hold my music called..shelves. What part of this am I missing?

I'm also not suggesting an either/or scenario when it comes vinyl or digital. I am suggesting both..there is too much good music out there that will only be available in one format or the other, why limit yourself?

In absolute terms, I prefer vinyl. Realistically, I prefer music over formats. A whole lot of great music will never see the light of day on CD, and a lot of used vinyl can be bought cheaply. A nice rig doesn't have to cost a king's ransom,
either. On the other hand, if the music I want to own is only on CD, then that's what I buy.

Is vinyl a dead/dying format? I'm not going to go there. But let's say you are correct. Does that not mean then that the music that will never see a CD release is also dead? That is a shame.

rajacat · « **Reply #65 on:** 16 Mar 2007, 03:38 am »

Nels,

I'm not an expert but from I understand when you copy a cd to your hard drive via EAC the software will quite often do multiple scans of your disk and correct most errors while creating a wav file. You then convert this wav file to flac to save drive space. The file is then on your hard drive and the laser on a cd player is eliminated from the playback chain therefore the errors inherent the cd player laser/mechanical mechanism are largely eliminated therefore less jitter. You can keep backup copies on an external hard drive or burn them , for instance, to a double layer DVD and then sell or trade your cds. The SB is the link to your audio system.

One great advantage to computer audio is that you can easily program a playlist that mixes different ablums or songs in any order and any number that pleases you. If you like an album but hate one particular cut it can be not included on the play list. I'm sure you get the idea.

BTW vinyl can be copied to your hard drive or a cd using software. Let's say you have an old Ella Fitzgerald 33. It can be copied to a cd.

Raj

Scott F. · « **Reply #66 on:** 16 Mar 2007, 04:19 am »

Hiya Nels,

Quote from: Nels Ferré on 16 Mar 2007, 02:10 am

Where's the advantage? I still have a CD to store. There is still jitter, etc when I copy the CD to my hard drive. I'm going to need 2 hard drives, at least, in case one goes down. The advantage is exactly...what?? I'm not stupid, or trying to be argumentative, but I just don't get it.

Rather than plagiarizing myself, give this article a read. It should explain what my take on the reduced jitter of the SB is all about.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1205/slimdevices_squeezebox.htm

and then give this one a read. It covers the Bolder mods
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0206/midmonth/bolder_modified_slimdevices_squeezebox.htm

You're right, you will most likely need a pair of hard drives. Drives are dirt cheap though. I just bought a 320gig external firewire for $69. It's plug and play with XP Pro. You will need a wireless router too. That one is another $69. You could use a LAN cable if you wanted to keep the costs down.

The modded SB and a good DAC (or the analog mods) brings digital to a whole new level. It's far better than you could ever imagine. The SB and my MHDT DAC will compete with CD players costing multi-multi thousands of dollars. Just a quick guess, my SB, power supply, DAC and hard drives (I already had a wireless setup), I might be $1500, maybe $1700 total investment on the digital side.

I've got a pretty nice sounding Audio Note TT1 and when you combine that with a Slee phone pre, that brings the totals to just about the same investment. To be completely honest here, I'd give the edge to the SB. Now, my big Opera LP5/Dynavector/Slee flat smokes the SB. Trouble is you have to multiply the SB cost (all in) by 10 to better it.

And don't get me wrong either. My vinyl outnumbers my CD collection almost 3:1.

Hey Nels, this summer climb on your bike and make the trek north and you can hear first hand how good digital can sound.

You'll be in for quite a treat I promise

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #67 on:** 16 Mar 2007, 04:34 am »

Hey Scott,

I already have the wireless router. I do the wireless laptop thing at home.

Don't tempt me on the ride to MO, I just may do it!

Nels

rabpaul · « **Reply #68 on:** 16 Mar 2007, 05:27 am »

Just curious. How does a 20 year old or older LP sound now? How much is the wear and tear?
I have a few 20 year old CDs and with Auric Illuminator they sound better than they have ever before which also says a lot about today's CDPs.

Somehow taking out a CD and running it on the Bedini has become is a ritual (with LPs that would be giving the LP a once over with a brush, zerostat etc) - something I would not want to give up. It is for this reason 50 somethings like me are reluctant to get into the SB thingy.

We all seem to have forgotten about the effort involved in getting vinyl to sound right. Just any one or couple of the 12 reasons mentioned by the chair guy in another post can easily screw things up bigtime. A CDP is plug and play and if you pay attention to the noise floor (which you have to when dealing with digital) well you really can get pretty close to the music.

So its vinyl vs digital = lots of effort vs less effort

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #69 on:** 16 Mar 2007, 05:44 am »

rabpaul, wear and tear on records could well be reason #13 - yet another variable to balance to enjoy vinyl.

Those that I bought new sound great 20-30 years later. I'm pretty careful with my things and they were cleaned when bought (by my dealers VPI vacuum machine that I paid him $0.25 per wash to do in his back room for each of my records. $5 cleaned a bunch I remember)

I've used, in conjunction with the cleaning, a product called LAST Record Preservative for 25 years (I've probably treated 400 records to it and bought 4 bottles in my life I think, so abouty 100 records per bottle) It essentially hardens the vinyl itself so heat damage and needle penetration is pretty much nullifed for 200 plays. So, no/zero clicks and or pops of any significant on my records (those bought new).

For those bought used it's a crap shoot...part of the utter frustration of the playback medium

BobRex · « **Reply #70 on:** 16 Mar 2007, 02:58 pm »

Quote from: rabpaul on 16 Mar 2007, 05:27 am

Just curious. How does a 20 year old or older LP sound now? How much is the wear and tear?
I have a few 20 year old CDs and with Auric Illuminator they sound better than they have ever before which also says a lot about today's CDPs.

Somehow taking out a CD and running it on the Bedini has become is a ritual (with LPs that would be giving the LP a once over with a brush, zerostat etc) - something I would not want to give up. It is for this reason 50 somethings like me are reluctant to get into the SB thingy.

We all seem to have forgotten about the effort involved in getting vinyl to sound right. Just any one or couple of the 12 reasons mentioned by the chair guy in another post can easily screw things up bigtime. A CDP is plug and play and if you pay attention to the noise floor (which you have to when dealing with digital) well you really can get pretty close to the music.

So its vinyl vs digital = lots of effort vs less effort

How do 20 year old records sound? Just fine thanks! Actually, as long as they were treated with some degree of care, yesterday's lp doesn't sound any different from a 20 year old record, which doesn't sound any different from a 40 year old record. Wear and tear is a function of how the lp was handled. Play it on a mis-aligned crappy table and you'll damage the record. Play it on a properly set up, decent quality table/arm/cart and the record will last forever. Vinyl doesn't rot.

As far as the effort involved, this is highly exaggerated. Once the system is properly set up, the procedure is simplicity itself. Here's what I do and have done for over 30 years: 1) carefully pull the record out of the jacket and sleeve. 2) place record on table and clamp it down. 3)turn on table and clean record with a CF brush - 3 rotations, 4) clean stylus using a dry brush - ocasionally, maybe every 10 records or so I'll wet the brush with a drop of Disc Doctor stylus cleaner, 5) turn off my line stage mute and cue the record. That's it, takes me 30 seconds.

I really think that too much is made of the "rituals" of vinyl playback. It's not as bad as most people make it out to be.

BTW - a CDP is only as plug and play as you want it to be. Did you run the CD through the lathe? How about dmagging it? Auric Illuminator anyone? Remember Armor-All?

rajacat · « **Reply #71 on:** 16 Mar 2007, 03:25 pm »

Bob Rex,

CDPs are rapidly becoming obsolete. Computer based devices such as the Squeezebox are the wave of the future. Actually the future is now because the SQ provided by some of these devices is excellent. So to compare vinyl playback to the CDP is becoming irrelevant.

Raj

BobRex · « **Reply #72 on:** 16 Mar 2007, 03:29 pm »

Except for one point.... How do you get the music into the squeezebox? You can't download everything.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #73 on:** 16 Mar 2007, 03:38 pm »

No, you rip it with software designed to remove on-the-fly irregularities.

With software like Inguz, room correction on the cheap ($200) is here and now. I'm working on getting my setup going and will report on the results. Inguz is also working on adding a multi-band parametric EQ to the plugin to deal with room modes. An SPL meter, test tone files, and a little sweat equity would take care of the most egregious room problems. Going to the next step of measuring the room and applying correction filters would still be possible.

Room treatments are still recommended before any EQ but most domestic environments are woeful in-room, even treated.

rajacat · « **Reply #74 on:** 16 Mar 2007, 03:41 pm »

BobRex,

Read Scott F's review of the Bolder modded SB. There's a link in his post above. The CDP will be relegated to the role of a transferring the digits/music to your hard drive via error correction software. The actual playback of music comes from a laser free hard drive > SB or equivalent> audio system.

Raj

miklorsmith · « **Reply #75 on:** 16 Mar 2007, 03:58 pm »

It's a CD-ROM drive that transfers the bits, which some think superior to a real-time transport as well.

lazydays · « **Reply #76 on:** 16 Mar 2007, 09:57 pm »

Quote from: rajacat on 16 Mar 2007, 12:59 am

If you store your CD's on your computer and use a modded SB for playback with your audio system I believe most people would listen to a lot more music, and those digits don't wear out. You don't have the snaps and pops to let you know that it's vinyl that's playing but that is a small price to pay. I believe that SOTA digital playback is quite good.

Raj

you need to hook up with someone that's got a mid line turn table and a halfway decent cartridge, and do a comparasion. You probably wont like the results when it's all said and done, because it just don't take a lot of analog to beat anything digital. My favorite example was the comparasion between a Sony SCD-1 and a Rega P25 at a local dealer.
They even went so far as to send the SCD-1 back to Sony thinking it was messed up.
gary

rajacat · « **Reply #77 on:** 16 Mar 2007, 10:04 pm »

I used to have a turntable although its been awhile. One of the problems is that I would have to invest a lot of time and money to build a music collection that would come close to what I have on my computer in lossless format. BTW have you ever listened to a fully modded Squeezebox on a good valve system? You may be surprised at the sound quality. Keep an open mind. A lot audiophiles with high end systems are switching to computer based playback.

Raj

lazydays · « **Reply #78 on:** 16 Mar 2007, 10:34 pm »

Quote from: rabpaul on 16 Mar 2007, 05:27 am

Just curious. How does a 20 year old or older LP sound now? How much is the wear and tear?
I have a few 20 year old CDs and with Auric Illuminator they sound better than they have ever before which also says a lot about today's CDPs.

Somehow taking out a CD and running it on the Bedini has become is a ritual (with LPs that would be giving the LP a once over with a brush, zerostat etc) - something I would not want to give up. It is for this reason 50 somethings like me are reluctant to get into the SB thingy.

We all seem to have forgotten about the effort involved in getting vinyl to sound right. Just any one or couple of the 12 reasons mentioned by the chair guy in another post can easily screw things up bigtime. A CDP is plug and play and if you pay attention to the noise floor (which you have to when dealing with digital) well you really can get pretty close to the music.

So its vinyl vs digital = lots of effort vs less effort

funny thing you wrote the comment about 20 year old records verses 20 year old CD's!
Three weeks ago my brother and I sat down to listen to "The Allman Brothers Live At The Fillmore East." He asked me where I bought it? Told him it was the copy I bought when it first came out (never told him I have two other mint copys as well cause he'd have confiscated one of them). Then we played the CD's, and once again he said there's no way they'll ever catch a turntable. Reason I spoke of my brother is that he has near perfect hearing, and has seen the Allman brothers several times. So he knows what they really sound like.
But let me take this a step further. Lately I've been buying many used, but in mint condition Toscanini LP's. They all are in mono, and almost bring tears to your eyes. Now they have just about the same range that a good CD has untill you reach the very high end of the scale. But! The one thing you notice is the depth of the sound. You ain't gonna get that from a CD.
gary

rajacat · « **Reply #79 on:** 16 Mar 2007, 10:51 pm »

CD playback can be improved upon with computer based playback. It's not the same thing.

Raj