[avahifi]

The problem is that I would have to send out both the Ultra DAC and an Ultra preamp and T8 preamp (both with phone circuits) all at once so you could get a real idea of what is happening.  I am not excited about just sending out the DAC into an unknown system as what is downstream might obscure its merits.

We are so busy working to fill the order backlog that I have no spare equipment available at this time.  If we ever get to the point of having new unsold pieces available, I might think about your suggestion.

Remember of course that you can make the trial yourself any time by simply ordering one and returning it within our 30 day satisfaction guarantee period if it does not ring your bell.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[TheChairGuy]

Frank,

Ah, therein lies the rub.  Without separating out components, how would I ever know if your DAC is working 'wonders' in my system....if I have all other stellar AVA HiFi components playing around 'em.  I think your engineering prowess and efforts at attaining great amplification devices are far more important in the chain than anything you can add to the lowly CD medium.  You can make great preamps and amps, but you can only make passably good DAC's as it is unfortuantely flawed from the get-go.

I would further venture to say there are scores of $200 DVD-A capable players that willl likely fully trounce your DAC's for CD...as DVD-A is considerably less flawed than Compact disc technology, overall.  Why not buy a $150 OPPO DVD player with DVD-A capability and a couple DVD-A discs, an investment of $200, and you'll soon see how un-musical your DAC's likely really are 

I mean no slight to you, but I think your talents are largely wasted on CD. It is beyond help that you can lend - you can't correct the inherent errors and deficiencies of the first 50% of the chain, the recording process. The amplification process is fully in your control as it is a second half / playback only medium - so keeping churning out those great amps 

Of course, I'm sure selling those DAC's ar a pretty significant profit center for you - so it's not likely that you'd give up their manufacture of them anytime soon no matter the superiority of DVD-A.   

No thanks on the 30 day trial offer, Frank.  When I return it to you I'd incur two way freight charges back to Minnesota...and I've wasted enough $$$ on that defective playback medium already.

Respectfully (really),

John / TCG

The problem is that I would have to send out both the Ultra DAC and an Ultra preamp and T8 preamp (both with phone circuits) all at once so you could get a real idea of what is happening.  I am not excited about just sending out the DAC into an unknown system as what is downstream might obscure its merits.

We are so busy working to fill the order backlog that I have no spare equipment available at this time.  If we ever get to the point of having new unsold pieces available, I might think about your suggestion.

Remember of course that you can make the trial yourself any time by simply ordering one and returning it within our 30 day satisfaction guarantee period if it does not ring your bell.

Sign me up as #1 on a product tour, however, if you ever do one.  I want only a DAC, not anything else to compare to as I'm rather happy otherwise with my surrounding preamp, amp and speakers.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[Bingenito]

would further venture to say there are scores of $200 DVD-A capable players that willl likely fully trounce your DAC's for CD...as DVD-A is considerably less flawed than Compact disc technology, overall.  Why not buy a $150 OPPO DVD player with DVD-A capability and a couple DVD-A discs, an investment of $200, and you'll soon see how un-musical your DAC's likely really are   

I am not touching the vinyl vs CD topic because to be candid I just don't care.

What I will comment on is the budget DVDa or SACD sounding better then a state of the art DAC/ Transport or DAC/Modded SB combo. I have heard A/B comparisons in my system with ripped Redbook CD to a great DAC vs. DVDa or SACD and I preferred the CD every time. This with a cheap DVD as mentioned above or with an Esoteric DV50.

Again 1 man's opinion

[TONEPUB]

So far, my favorite CD players have been pretty spendy,
but good enough that if I couldn't have analog anymore
I'd be a happy camper!

would you mind to name a few?

You bet!

I bought the review sample of the Meridian 808 that we just reviewed and really
enjoy that.  I also own a Wadia 581i that is quite good.

We did a recent review of the Metronome CD3-i that was in the same league
as the Meridian, but a touch warmer.  That was a great player that I could
easily live with.

The bad news is that all of these players are in the 7-12k range.  

I know Ill get all kinds of flak for pushing the bar this high, but it's my
opinion.  I've listened to a number of great players in the 2-4000 dollar
range and while excellent, not in the same league as what I just listed.

We also have about eight other fairly expensive players in this price range
that are coming in for review this year as well as a few very nice things
in the 1500 - 3000 range.

For what it's worth, I love the sound of my Squeezebox or Macintosh
computer through the new Benchmark DAC1 (usb model) too.  Again
not in the league of my 808, but very musically satisfying.

Im sure there are ten other great players I haven't gotten around to
yet, but we are working on it!

[TONEPUB]

I am not touching the vinyl vs CD topic because to be candid I just don't care.

Again 1 man's opinion

Good, can we have a beer now?

[WEEZ]

TCG,

You might be pushing you zeal for vinyl a bit far...and I'm a vinyl fan!!

WEEZ  

[miklorsmith]

Frank says he knows what good analog performance is.

Frank has access to his own, excellent electronics to assess his own DAC vs. good analog, in the same system, side-by-side.

You do not.

Yet, you continually bash the digital medium because you spent too much money on an amusical CD rig and have exploded your own narrow experience to ALL of digital reproduction.  In the realm of logic this would be known as a fallacy.  Small samples do not warrant universal laws.  This was on the first Philosophy 102, "Introduction to Logic" exam:  There are 100 boys; the first 11 boys are wearing blue hats; True or False, All the boys are wearing blue hats.

And no, I don't mean *just you*, we all have narrow samples.  But, some of us have found good sound with digital and you have been cursed not to.

Why you continue to waste your considerable intelligence expounding on the same rhetoric ad nauseum is beyond me.  EVERYONE knows what you think.

For now, let bygones be and let Frank express HIS EXPERIENCES without demeaning them, or anyone elses for that matter, with your smug self-righteousness.

[Mortsnets]

Cheapest Music Hall Turntable from several years ago ($300) aproximately equals original Rega Planet CDP($800).  So the equation is: digital costs 2 2/3 times as much as equivalent analog.

What about the cost of the arm, cartridge and phono amp?

Oh yeah, that, good point.  All my old electronics (Advent 300, NAD 3020, Scott 299) have phono sections so I forgot that expense, and the Music Hall table comes with arm and cartridge (but of course you have to replace the cartridge). 

IMHO even at the budget end of things listenable (as defined by me) digital is quite a bit more expensive, but I haven't listened to DVD-A or SACD.

[Bingenito]

Good, can we have a beer now?

You can have all the beer you want sir 

[TheChairGuy]

Guys,

I might be pushing my distaste for CD....not so much my zeal for vinyl as I find it the best among the few available to us only by default.  And, farrrrr from perfect in itself.

Mike/miklorsmith
Your comments are getting rather personal now, would you like to continue this in PM or Fight Club?  One way or another, we are going to continue it as you are purposely riding me now.  And hard 

[miklorsmith]

I'm not trying to be personal, I'm trying to be an agent of progressive discourse.  It is not a personal thing at all.  As I said, you write well, have considered and sincere opinions, and I find I will open threads I'm not interested in just to hear what you have to say about it.  I might argue strenuously, but I try hard not to launch or receive on a personal level.

[mdfoy]

Do I need to call a time out?  This is a very interesting, yet bordering on the polarizing argument that I mentioned in the first post. Good sound is good sound, regardless of medium, to the listener.  I know most of you "old heads" remember the same back and forth over tube vs ss, both technologies have come a long way, and will continue to improve, as will digital.

[TheChairGuy]

Passive aggressive now, eh Mike?

Look at your post now once again and see if it isn't personal or unusually argumentative directly towards me?

'I don't have a good system' ...'I make my comments ad nauseum'.....and 'I am smugly self-righteous'.  Have I ever said anything like that to anybody (outside of Fight Club) - have I ever said anything like this to you on any subejct - ever?

As I've asked you before and you have never answered - have you ever had a turntable or listened intently to one for long periods of time?  Or, are you a young guy with no knowledge of vinyl/analog that likes taking potshots at me because I express my views on something I know about rather too forcefully on a subject you know diddly-do about?

If you don't have a turntable, nor ever owned one, nor ever spent time listening to one intently - why do you choose to post in a topic called 'Vinyl vs. Digital Performance'?   That is, other than to take a crap on me (your 3rd crap in 3 different topics now).  I'd say you made your point to me and about me abundantly clear - now stop it and or take it to another venue (PM or Fight Club).  Your choice 

You, as well, write splendidly and I, too, read ALL your posts for their unusual clarity and dextrous use of the English language.  Which is why I am finding this very personalized nature of your tone with me to be puzzling .  It is unlike other posts you make here at AC.

[miklorsmith]

Good questions I suppose.  I don't own a turntable nor have I spent tremendous times around them.  I have heard very good ones well set up and have enjoyed them in numerous settings, including side-by-side with good CDPs.  I would not consider myself an expert on the vinyl sound.

I know what passive aggressive is and I don't think I'm it.  My last blast was stronger than it should have been, so sorry for that.  I can type faster than I can think.  The following post was merely an explanation that it isn't *you*, rather the latest kick that's buggin' me.  And, it isn't the opinion of vinyl over digital, I'm cool with that.  I have friends with TTs and plan specifically to utilize their first-hand experience with it to compare gear that goes through the Outside feature (you sparked this).  Rather, its the repeated and painstaking deliberation of the same thought.

Does that make sense?  Can I respect the opinion but have difficulty with the delivery?  I think that's it but never mind.

I probably shouldn't be so OS as my wife would say (oversensitive).  I won't bug you any more.  If I find myself in another rant about digital, I'll skip ahead.  So, peace.  Life's too short to get wound around the axle over something as silly as audio in general.   

Sorry for derailing the thread.  Oh geez, that's a lot of apologies, sorry for being so apologetic, crap I did it again!

p.s.  I didn't mean to imply you have a bad system

[rajacat]

No need for apology. It's too bad that cults form because that leads to narrow minded thinking. Of course, it could easily be valves vs. solid state or single drivers vs. ob vs planer vs 2 way etc.....

Raj

[TheChairGuy]

Mike/miklorsmith
 

rajacat
No sacred cows or cults with me....just objectivity based on my experiences (perhaps that in itself makes it subjective  ) that sometimes rubs people wrong.  I'm honestly not inferring that anyone is stupid, or non-discriminating or has any lesser abilty to hear things than I do if they like their CD-based system.  I am simply trying to relate my experience and save someone a few painstaking dollars running the wrong course with their hard earned income on audio - as I have.  I am not trying to tick anyone off - I am actually trying to be of some help to many.

Consider that I make nothing/zero/zilch/nada financially in endorsing any particular view...while any manufacturer of DAC's in inherently biased to promote these products.  Their very educated opinion and input is all well and good, but recognize that mine is unbiased as to financial gains, while theirs is not. The difference is often critical to your wallet.

Anyhow, I shall sutup now as this topic has veered to far afield and it is in whole or part, my fault 

[Nels Ferre]

Hi All,

I'm not sure I can give you a mathematical equation as to what digital rig will match what analog rig cost wise. I've heard some great low priced analog, and I've owned/auditioned lots of gear in various price ranges. I do believe it is easier to assemble a long term musically pleasing analog rig than it is to do in digital.

That said, one important piece of the puzzle has really been missed here: if the albums aren't clean, you probably won't really, truly understand the vinyl "thing". By clean I mean (insert your favorite fluid here) used with a vaccuum system, whether it be a Nitty Gritty, VPI, KAB, or whatever. I am partial to the Disc Doctor fluids myself. A Discwasher D4+ or whatever hand held "record cleaner" just doesn't get it.

Clean records, are, in my opinion, as important if not more so than whatever rig you run.

Just my .02 FWIW

[rajacat]

Of course there are many who think that vinyl is a dying format and might advise, rather than investing mucho $'s in a turntable, esoteric arms and carts, that it would be better to invest in SOTA digital gear which is getting better all the time.

Raj

[TheChairGuy]

Nels - agreed here 

Clean records really light the path as to how deficient CD's are in treble performance, in particular.  A clean groove really lets that stylus dig in there and extract the nuances and details hidden in the treble range...those nuances really do lend clues you are listening to 'live'.

I do it, I hate it, it is unbelievably time consuming and tedious....but it is really important to getting the most from vinyl.

Whereas, I rub the underside of a CD on my sleeve to clean it and plop it in my tray to play.  I haven't found enormous difference in zapping them, cleaning them with Kodak Optical Lens Cleaning solution or other things I've tried, various disc mats (the Herbie's helped a bit), marking the edges with green market, etc.  The utter convenience of CD can't be overstated as a positive, relative to vinyl, in any way 

[rajacat]

If you store your CD's on your computer and use a modded SB for playback with your audio system I believe most people would listen to a lot more music, and those digits don't wear out. You don't have the snaps and pops to let you know that it's vinyl that's playing but that is a small price to pay. I believe that  SOTA digital playback is quite good.

Raj