[Wayner]

I find it very interesting that LP and CD lovers actually have time capsules with their collection. I have some recordings that go back to the fifties and I have some from last year such as Neil Young's Prairie Wind. Boy, has the LP gone through a revolution! On that note, I look at my collection and have guessed that the average age of most of the albums centers around 1979-1980. That is roughly 25 years since the 12" 33 1/3 album has really been around, of course +/- a few years. In that time period, it is evident listening to the recordings in a chronological fashion that the technology simply got better and better. There were better and bigger studio recorders, microphones, processors, cable, cutting machines, guitars, drums and so on. Everything improved. The sound of the LP kind of hit the ceiling where the technology couldn't take it much higher anymore. Today, records still come (new) warped, off center, scratched and bubbled as they always did.

The evolution of the turntable, cartridge and tonearm have also made fantastic leaps, especially as of late. There are many models of really good RIAA preamps as well.

LP's, like CD's, have a sort of filter mechanism, however, it's at the other end of the audio spectrum. I'm talking about the RIAA compensation curve used to restore the lowest bass notes that simply couldn't be lathed onto the disc without the tonearm/cartridge launching off of the record surface. This is where I think the LP has it's short comings. That doesn't mean I'm not going to listen to them, because they are less than perfect, I love them for what they are. I love the fact that this 100 year old format can deliver such sonic realism. I play records every night. I use all three of the turntables I have set-up. They all have their own virtues and flaws but that's fine. They're all damn old too, just like me.

The CD has gone through a revolution as well. I remember buying my first player (a Fisher)  and I still have the first CD I ever bought. It was by Jefferson Starship called "Knee deep in the Hoopla" with the hit song "We built this city on rock and roll". That CD was dated 1985. Here we are soon coming into the 25 years of CD and look at the evolution again. Compare the early CD's to today's releases. They really don't compare very well, just like early to late day vinyl. The CD is now coming into it's own and unfortunately, the current generation has chosen to be satisfied with a less than capable format with the flourishing of the Ipod. The new CD players have improved with better transports, D/A converters and playback equipment.

I think we all have examples of great and terrible recordings in either format. Of course, this debate will never end and hopefully the improvements to both formats will never end either.

What's my point? I don't have one.  aa

[Nels Ferre]

You will like Innervisons on vinyl.  I think I 'm going to spin that one next.   aa

[Dave G]

Root Boy Slim, oh yeah!  Boogie 'til you puke!

(in case it gets changed by the time you read this, Nels was playing a (the?) Root Boy Slim album when he made the post above)

[TheChairGuy]

Raj,

I'd hazard a guess that the audiophile lot that is switching to computer based playback en masse is switching from standalone CDP's/DAC's primarily...not switching from turntable based system.

You can listen to a lot of CD-based digital systems (I've heard a bunch over the years, including computer based - they are all varying degrees of okay) and you keep graduating to higher and higher of levels of resolution and musicality.....but the time you put a well-sorted mid-priced turntable setup against it - and it's back to the drawing board   

As Gary/lazydays mentioned, you need to compare it for yourself before you wade much further into this debate - until you do, you will have little in the way of proper perspective to offer up an opinion. I'm not being snotty, I'm just relating to you my experience and that of others having been exposed to vinyl.

Really, I'm only pro-vinyl because the music matters the most (not because I harbor and sentimentality for the format) - and I only wish I could have my cake (great music) and eat it, too (convenience) with CD.  Until you do a proper comparo yourself, you will never know how far you really are from hearing great, great music regularly (akin to 'live' or truer to the recording).

There really is a reason why various reviewers refer to CD players or sound from them as analog-like or has analog-like smoothness.  It is an attempt to bestow on a good CD component the highest compliment of musicality - analog like sound.  But, it's always like, not to be confused with the equivalent of 

I used to have a turntable although its been awhile. One of the problems is that I would have to invest a lot of time and money to build a music collection that would come close to what I have on my computer in lossless format. BTW have you ever listened to a fully modded Squeezebox on a good valve system? You may be surprised at the sound quality. Keep an open mind. A lot audiophiles with high end systems are switching to computer based playback. 

Raj

[lcrim]

John:
Why does it have to be one or the other?  I have a Squeeze Box mostly because when I jumped into PC audio, the bang for buck was extraordinary.  Thats leveled off as the modders realized that their time was valuable but its still hugely cheaper than a high end CD player.  I need to have both sources because there is music I need to hear that can only be found on one or the other, plus there are times when the convenience of the Squeeze Box wins out.   In my experience, high quality sound is possible either way.  I rarely find Redbook playback and the attendant digital nasties as big an issue as I once did.  The Benz Glider is as resistant to surface noise as the Goldring Eroica, so surface noise on records rarely spoils the illusion any more.  I know what source I'm listening to but my girlfriend and daughter don't and really can't tell the difference.
Kevin Barrett came over to listen and he has the best ears I know well.  He confessed that the fact that I was using single driver speakers and a SET amp never seemed obvious.  He told me that it could easily have been solid state w/ horns but at the end of the day what mattered was how well it served the music. 
Obviously, you started this thread to play devils advocate, as you are wont to do.  It would seem that we take this stuff very seriously and personally at times.

[rajacat]

TCG,

Have you ever listen to a fully tweaked Squeezebox in your system?

Raj

[konut]

This is really a matter of personal preference more than anything else and has to do with which compromises you are more comfortable with. For example, vinyl will never have the low frequency extention or freedom from distortion at low frequencies that CDs will. But if all you listen to is acoustic small ensemble or jazz then this is not an issue. Vinyl is definitely more labor intensive than digital, and I don't think anyone will dispute that. If you prefer the kind of euphonic distortion that vinyl renders than you might be able to add a tube pre or amp, to a digital rig, to get the best of both worlds. Suffice to say its not easy, or cheap, to get great sound from either medium. Careful matching and shopping is required for both.

[WEEZ]

What the hell is euphonic distortion?

[konut]

If you prefer the kind of euphonic distortion that vinyl renders than you might be able to add a tube pre or amp, to a digital rig, to get the best of both worlds.

I don't have euphonic distortion from my vinyl rig. Maybe I'm not doing vinyl correctly.

You may not think you have euphonic distortion but, by definition, you do if you use vinyl. Its easily measurable.
http://stereophile.com/reference/406howard/
Its no coincidence that the term 'musicalty' is used to describe the effect. Just as musical instrurments are identified by their harmonic structure, vinyl adds a certain amount of harmonic 'enhancement' that many find pleasing to the ears. I'm not saying its bad. Its just not as accurate as digital. And theres no reason to be shy about admitting you like it.

[rajacat]

Maybe the "euphonic distortion" is actually distortion produced by the musical instruments and is not produced by the playback medium.

Raj

[konut]

Maybe the "euphonic distortion" is actually distortion produced by the musical instruments and is not produced by the playback medium.

Raj

Nice try. An acoustic insturment produces certain sounds that are a mix of frequencies. If its recorded by a reasonably competent person with good to excellent equipment, one would obtain a recording  that reproduces only those mix of frequencies. By definition, there is no distortion ie nothing added. An eletric guitar is a whole 'nother matter. Its a combination of the signal coming from the pickups and then routed to the amplifier of the muscicians choice to produce the desired tone. Frequently the amp speaker combo used by said guitarist is chosen for the specific harmonic enhancement that is obtained from  that combo. THAT distortion is measureable and repeatable in the same manner the turntable, cartridge, phono preamp can be measured.

[rajacat]

Konut,

How do you measure such effects as soundstage depth/width, transparency and the feeling of separation between instruments?

Raj

[konut]

Well of course it is. Its got a tube output stage.

[konut]

Konut,

How do you measure such effects as soundstage depth/width, transparency and the feeling of separation between instruments?

Raj

By listening.

[blakep]

If you prefer the kind of euphonic distortion that vinyl renders than you might be able to add a tube pre or amp, to a digital rig, to get the best of both worlds.

I don't have euphonic distortion from my vinyl rig. Maybe I'm not doing vinyl correctly.

You may not think you have euphonic distortion but, by definition, you do if you use vinyl. Its easily measurable.
http://stereophile.com/reference/406howard/
Its no coincidence that the term 'musicalty' is used to describe the effect. Just as musical instrurments are identified by their harmonic structure, vinyl adds a certain amount of harmonic 'enhancement' that many find pleasing to the ears. I'm not saying its bad. Its just not as accurate as digital. And theres no reason to be shy about admitting you like it.

Konut: It seems a bit odd to me that you would make an argument for vinyl adding euphonic distortion and then reference an article which makes absolutely no reference to vinyl (at least in my quick perusal of the article) but, in fact, refers to distortions created by amplifiers. Perhaps you could further enlighten us.

[rajacat]

Konut...Guitar players often choose tubes for their amps on the basis of how they distort sound and often they want a more distorted sound because that's the effect they're looking for. So on a 20 year old album how do you know that the euphonic distortion is not what the musician intended? Now if you say that euphonic distortion is what TT owners like then it follows that the more expensive TT's should have more of this distortion.

Raj

[konut]

If you prefer the kind of euphonic distortion that vinyl renders than you might be able to add a tube pre or amp, to a digital rig, to get the best of both worlds.

I don't have euphonic distortion from my vinyl rig. Maybe I'm not doing vinyl correctly.

You may not think you have euphonic distortion but, by definition, you do if you use vinyl. Its easily measurable.
http://stereophile.com/reference/406howard/
Its no coincidence that the term 'musicalty' is used to describe the effect. Just as musical instrurments are identified by their harmonic structure, vinyl adds a certain amount of harmonic 'enhancement' that many find pleasing to the ears. I'm not saying its bad. Its just not as accurate as digital. And theres no reason to be shy about admitting you like it.

Konut: It seems a bit odd to me that you would make an argument for vinyl adding euphonic distortion and then reference an article which makes absolutely no reference to vinyl (at least in my quick perusal of the article) but, in fact, refers to distortions created by amplifiers. Perhaps you could further enlighten us.

Quickly peruse this.
http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinyl49.html

or this
http://www.skepticforum.com/rss.php?t=85

[maxwalrath]

Maybe the "euphonic distortion" is actually distortion produced by the musical instruments and is not produced by the playback medium.

Raj

Nice try. An acoustic insturment produces certain sounds that are a mix of frequencies. If its recorded by a reasonably competent person with good to excellent equipment, one would obtain a recording  that reproduces only those mix of frequencies. By definition, there is no distortion ie nothing added. An eletric guitar is a whole 'nother matter. Its a combination of the signal coming from the pickups and then routed to the amplifier of the muscicians choice to produce the desired tone. Frequently the amp speaker combo used by said guitarist is chosen for the specific harmonic enhancement that is obtained from  that combo. THAT distortion is measureable and repeatable in the same manner the turntable, cartridge, phono preamp can be measured.

My instead of analog adding something, maybe it's digital that takes something away, thus vinyl having the more "musical" reputation. 

[konut]

Well of course it is. Its got a tube output stage.

My vinyl rig sounds less euphonic than my Sony C77ES changer, which is completely solid state.

BTW, you'll note that I am being very careful to not argue the superiority of one format over the other. I don't believe one is superior to the other, and I strongly believe any debate intended to prove the superiority of a format is a total waste of time.

I am merely making statements about what I hear in my system with my gear, which are in contrast to your general statement of the more euphonic sonic signature of vinyl playback. What I hear in my system just does not corroborate your position.

You are entitled to your preference

[konut]

My instead of analog adding something, maybe it's digital that takes something away, thus vinyl having the more "musical" reputation. 

Its not an 'instead' thing. You may very well be correct that digital 'takes away' something. Its not even debateably that vinyl rigs don't add 'something'.