[lazydays]

Bingo, bingo, binglo and bingo - you rolled my entire belief up better than I ever have 

As a wade more into classical, no CD player makes the cut.  Piano and string instruments simply don't sound right...tho CD for Rock and roll is a great device (AC/DC's 'Back in Black' is so much more guttural than on even pristine vinyl).

Again, great summary, Jeff 

I've chased down this rabbit hole pretty far and there
is some overlap.  I have heard some digital players that
I have enjoyed quite a lot at various price points, but
usually analog still comes out on top in terms of air,
dimensionality and capturing the ultimate tonality
of music.

However, it does depend on what kind of music you listen
to.  If you are a big classical lover, you may never find
the ultimate nirvana with a CD player.

Also, it may depend on how picky you are as well.  I do
this every day for a living and by the nature of the job
have had to become fussier than I would if I were just
doing it for fun.

Last but not least, it's a lot easier to get analog WRONG
(setup, etc) so in that sense good CD is more enjoyable
and certainly a lot easier than bad analog.

you want to find out just how bad a cd player is? Find someone who plays a clarinet professionally, and listen to them play. Now go home and listen to the best cd you can find playing a clarinet. I did this same comparison awhile back when I went to Frank Glover's CD release party. I was dumbfounded at the range his instrument had, and when I went home I played the CD (an excellent recording by the way). It was like somebody had somekind of a filter in the system! I really didn't notice this as much with the bass as I did with the highs.
gary

[lazydays]

This is a audio apples vs. oranges question. 

Years ago a friend gave me an old Thorens TT (I'd owned a much nicer Thorens base, English arm, a good cart before CD, probably worth $2000 today) with a cheap cart.  I don't know what this old Thoren's is worth, but any new $30 disc player would stomp it in a variety of ways.  I don't know how cheap you can go with a new or used TT and still get something folks might agree on as being "audiophile quality" (maybe $500 new?), but a new Oppo universal player with respectable quality can be delivered to your door for $150. 

Take care to check to see how bouncy your floors are too.  Last time I got the old Thorens out it was to expose my kids to vinyl and we had to tiptoe on 50 year old wooden floors to avoid skips.

at one time I was using a Music Hall #5 almost exactly as it was shipped. I also was using a Sony 9000ES sacd player and a Jolida CD100A for digital devices. Each and everytime the Music Hall made the Sony sound like it was in a tin can. Samething with the Jolida. Now I use a Marantz 8260 and the same Jolida, but with a better turntable in an all tubed system (where possable). One pays great music and is convienent, while the other just seems to sound better each and everyday.
gary

[TheChairGuy]

Gary/lazydays really nailed it for me...it's the highs/treble that are most objectionable on CD.  I have never heard convincing reproduction of triangles, cymbols, flutes, piano or small string instruments (violin, viola) with CD - on any system or at any price. For me, at least, it handles clarinets about as well as vinyl (maybe just a little less well).

I find CD's are fine for rock and roll - played loudly, the dynamic range is really appreciated.  But ask it to perform any nuanced music - ie., well miked jazz or classical - and it falls flat. 

No amount of attention lavished on the playback side (digital to audio conversion) can correct the inherent issues in the recording itself (that is, the technology itself).  This commentary would be inclusive of the amazingly talented Frank van Alstine who likely just needs to upgrade his vinyl front end to see how far he really is from offering real musicality with his DAC's    Get a deck that keeps unwavering speed and doesn't get all irregular due to stylus drag, vacuum clean your records, isolate the heck out of it from mechanical and acoustical feedback, set the arm geometry up right (and use a damping trough for most moving magnets and irons) and get a good tracking cartridge with something other than a cheap bonded/bushed stylus tip - and you'll trounce CD rather regularly and easily for accurate music reproduction.   

Please note - I'm not anti-digital...I'm pro-musicality.  I hate the efforts it takes to make phono playback great; but I'm a slave to the music, not form. I think DVD-A is a healthy advance on CD technology, for instance.

Alfred Hitchcock had a plot device in most or all of his movies called a 'MacGuffin'.  It was a story line that went nowhere - drawing you from the real story line.  The 'MacGuffin' in audio is CD......it's fine on it's own merits (convenience, dynamics mostly), but it draws you from the real story line (the music).  Right now/today, music is best re-created by the old record player.  I am really hoping that is not the case in  few years, but it is today 

[Wayner]

I have 3 very finely tuned turntables that I cherish and I love the music they make. I also have some CD's on my other system that will rival the sound of the vinyl. I have a telarc recording of Leonard Bernstein doing Aaron Copland and there is every nuance there as well as dynamic impact. I also have a Columbia Masterworks of many of the same recordings on vinyl. They do each have there own sound but I can't go with saying one format trounces the other 'cause it just ain't so.

[miklorsmith]

TCG - so let me get this straight - you think vinyl is better and that CDs don't make music?  I'm not really sure what you're getting at, please clarify your thought here, again.

Sheesh.

[TheChairGuy]

Mike,

Nope...and really, nope again. I won't give you the opportunity to crap on me within this topic 

PM me if you want (again, as I responded to a PM from you a couple weeks back) to further re-clarify my position.

I know you're a young guy - have you had the chance to listen to a decent table yet? Or, several tables, or at least one or two intimately in your listening area?  Fortunately I'm old enough at 43 to have had nothing but a turntable as my high fidelity source, then turned from it for several years, only to return to it 2 years ago.  Never have I loathed music so much as the several years I spent without a TT.

CD, by and large, is a great advance in convenience....but not musical quality.  Wish it weren't so, have tried mightily to not make it so, but so it is 

I recognize that I do not and cannot speak for all, I hear what I hear in my music, but I'm reasonably firm in my conviction after some 30 years of music playing now. If you have an alternative view, please share it....but please don't ask me to re-clarify my position....that'll end up turning this innocent topic choice into a scrap heap.  State your opinion, and back it up with your experiences as I have - don't ask me to re-state mine - and this topic will stay vibrant and fresh.

Love ya' 

John / TCG

TCG - so let me get this straight - you think vinyl is better and that CDs don't make music?  I'm not really sure what you're getting at, please clarify your thought here, again.

Sheesh.

[miklorsmith]

Awww, c'mon, that's no fun!

[lazydays]

Gary/lazydays really nailed it for me...it's the highs/treble that are most objectionable on CD.  I have never heard convincing reproduction of triangles, cymbols, flutes, piano or small string instruments (violin, viola) with CD - on any system or at any price. For me, at least, it handles clarinets about as well as vinyl (maybe just a little less well).

I find CD's are fine for rock and roll - played loudly, the dynamic range is really appreciated.  But ask it to perform any nuanced music - ie., well miked jazz or classical - and it falls flat. 

No amount of attention lavished on the playback side (digital to audio conversion) can correct the inherent issues in the recording itself (that is, the technology itself).  This commentary would be inclusive of the amazingly talented Frank van Alstine who likely just needs to upgrade his vinyl front end to see how far he really is from offering real musicality with his DAC's    Get a deck that keeps unwavering speed and doesn't get all irregular due to stylus drag, vacuum clean your records, isolate the heck out of it from mechanical and acoustical feedback, set the arm geometry up right (and use a damping trough for most moving magnets and irons) and get a good tracking cartridge with something other than a cheap bonded/bushed stylus tip - and you'll trounce CD rather regularly and easily for accurate music reproduction.   

Please note - I'm not anti-digital...I'm pro-musicality.  I hate the efforts it takes to make phono playback great; but I'm a slave to the music, not form. I think DVD-A is a healthy advance on CD technology, for instance.

Alfred Hitchcock had a plot device in most or all of his movies called a 'MacGuffin'.  It was a story line that went nowhere - drawing you from the real story line.  The 'MacGuffin' in audio is CD......it's fine on it's own merits (convenience, dynamics mostly), but it draws you from the real story line (the music).  Right now/today, music is best re-created by the old record player.  I am really hoping that is not the case in  few years, but it is today 

I have many friends that are professional musicians, and one of the things they all seem to agree on is that analog is a far superior medium to listen to music with. They all seem to have the same thoughts on the instruments seemingly cut off. But the one thing that's always bugged me about digital music of anykind is the complete lack of presence. The image is nearly flat and pretty narrow. This might work fairly well with a small trio playing on a small stage, but when you start to thing quartets and quintets, it's an altogether different ball game. If the sound stage is not right, nothing else will come out right.
    To further expand on ths subject let me tell you a story about a sextet I had the chance to listen to a few years back. With the exception of the trumpet player and bass player all were from the original recording (Nick Payton was added at the trumpet along with Frank Smith at the upright bass). These guys were really cookin' till about four or five in the morning. The next day I played the CD, and it pretty much sounded like what I heard. So I thought little about it. Later I heard that same group play again, but with a couple new players, and once again were really gettin' it done. Well the CD is one of my all time favorites, but the more I played it the more I had questions about the mastering and placement of the instruments. Finally a few months back Steve Allee and I had a few beers and I asked him the question that's been bugging me. He told me the piano was setup center stage instead of being on the left side of the stage as he prefers. And the drums were in a seperate room by themselves. Ok this made the mastering right, but the depth of the sound stage was shallow and maybe a few feet narrow. Later I heard the master recorded onto tape (not the original master but a copy of it). It was like an altogether different recording, and I've been begging for a copy ever since (probably going to take a gallon jug of Crown Royal Extra).
    With Frank Glover's CD played live, the sound was very big and open. Highs were huge! Probably as good a jazz clarinet as you'll ever get the chance to hear. But when I played it at home it had a compressed sound. Told Frank it should have been an LP.
gary

[WEEZ]

There's a little place here in town that does electronic repair; speaker re-coning; etc. They also deal in used 'vintage' hi-fi gear; guitar amps; and used recording gear. It's a cool place  . (They also have a HUGE collection of used vinyl for sale. I go in there once or twice a month  )

Anyway, it's also a 'hangout' for local musicians. The last time I was there rummaging thru the vinyl, there was about 4 or 5 guys sitting around picking on guitars and jawing about music and stuff; and I asked them what kind of cd player they used at home....

The unanomous response went something like..."My kids listen to cd's".......

I'll spare you the rest....

WEEZ

[Rob Babcock]

Most of the musicians I know wouldn't know good audio reproduction if it hit 'em on the head.  YMMV.

[Rob Babcock]

It's probably more than that.  My theory is that musicians hear the music in their head, perhaps an idealized version of it, and their brain fills in the peices.  Sort of like the way you can understand a longtime friend with bad enunciation or a speech impediment when everyone else is going "huh?"  You're so used to it that in your head you hear what he's trying to say, not the jumble that's coming out.

[WEEZ]

Nah, it's because most musicians are poor. 

WEEZ

[Rob Babcock]

Some are, I guess.   However my boss plays several instruments and hopefully makes more than I do.

[lazydays]

Most of the musicians I know wouldn't know good audio reproduction if it hit 'em on the head.  YMMV.

The ones I know do. And they are very picky as to what a recording will sound like when it goes into production. The problems they have is what we use for a listening format, or even better whats dictated to them by the recording companys.
gary

[Mortsnets]

One data point.
Cheapest Music Hall Turntable from several years ago ($300) aproximately equals original Rega Planet CDP($800).  So the equation is: digital costs 2 2/3 times as much as equivalent analog.

[mdfoy]

Mortnets,

Thanks for the formula.  That was kind of what I was looking for in the first place, but all of the other feedback was interesting.

[rabpaul]

Cheapest Music Hall Turntable from several years ago ($300) aproximately equals original Rega Planet CDP($800).  So the equation is: digital costs 2 2/3 times as much as equivalent analog.

What about the cost of the arm, cartridge and phono amp?

[avahifi]

Hey Chairguy, I appreciate your comments but they are a bit obsolete. 

The problem is that you have not heard the current shipping AVA hybrid preamps and DAC or tube preamp.

In my home system, I am getting pretty amazing playback with both vinyl and CD.  The only significant differences that give away the record playback are the occasional ticks and pops.  Other than that, both sources are completely musical.

Note that I have been playing with getting better record playback for 40 years and have tried all the good stuff; air bearing straight line turntable, Linn setup, wildly expensive tone arms and moving coil cartridges, super critical alignment tools, strange record mats, record clamps, and more.  I know all about proper cartridge alignment and have spent hours getting it spot on.  It would have been difficult for me to design the Longhorn cartridge without a really revealing record playing setup. Don't assume my playback setup is lacking, and of course I have heard the very best and most expensive record playback systems too (not impressed).

If you had a current T8 preamp and Ultra DAC you would go crazy deciding which you liked best, vinyl or CD.

Of course vinyl wins because there are so many great recordings that never made it to CD.   

Of course CD wins because you don't have to stop and turn the dumb thing over to hear the complete performance.   

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[anubisgrau]

So far, my favorite CD players have been pretty spendy,
but good enough that if I couldn't have analog anymore
I'd be a happy camper!

would you mind to name a few?

[TheChairGuy]

Frank,

Send out one of your DAC's (as we're snooty audiophools here, I suggest your better Ultra one) on a product tour  I am sure you will have a long sign-up roster for it and I doubt you'll lose but $300.00 on the resale of the used product from the tour in the end.

You can count on me as #1 on the product tour and I'll send it carefully packed to anyone else in the contiguous US on my freight dime.

I hope somehow that you are more rationale and brilliant than thousands of engineers in Asia, Europe, North America and or elsewhere that have tried and failed miserably to coax equivalent musicality from CD versus vinyl in the past 20 years.  I think the odds are slim, but I'm always empathetic to a long shot candidate 

I realize your wait times for your gear is long, and there is good reason for it as to value and musicality, and that your business probably doesn't need the boost that a product tour can provide......but if you're serious about proving your point, you'll do one.  It's only one box for you to keep track of out there running about.  It'll likely be far most cost effective to send a $1600 (retail) box out into audiophooldom than pay those $4K full page ads in Absolute Sound 6x yearly.  It may not net you as much overall business, but is is likely a far more productive venue for you to show off your wares.

I was fortunate not to have been born with a large ego - so I look forward to receiving your Ultra DAC and eating evey word on the inherent inferiority of CD to vinyl.  Really, I do (hope you do believe this as it's true - I do not WANT to do all I do to enjoy music with turntable/vinyl; my life is busy enough) 

Thanks, John / TCG

Hey Chairguy, I appreciate your comments but they are a bit obsolete. 

The problem is that you have not heard the current shipping AVA hybrid preamps and DAC or tube preamp.

In my home system, I am getting pretty amazing playback with both vinyl and CD.  The only significant differences that give away the record playback are the occasional ticks and pops.  Other than that, both sources are completely musical.

Note that I have been playing with getting better record playback for 40 years and have tried all the good stuff; air bearing straight line turntable, Linn setup, wildly expensive tone arms and moving coil cartridges, super critical alignment tools, strange record mats, record clamps, and more.  I know all about proper cartridge alignment and have spent hours getting it spot on.  It would have been difficult for me to design the Longhorn cartridge without a really revealing record playing setup. Don't assume my playback setup is lacking, and of course I have heard the very best and most expensive record playback systems too (not impressed).

If you had a current T8 preamp and Ultra DAC you would go crazy deciding which you liked best, vinyl or CD.

Of course vinyl wins because there are so many great recordings that never made it to CD.   

Of course CD wins because you don't have to stop and turn the dumb thing over to hear the complete performance.   

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine