[mfsoa]

There are sooo many aspects to this question, so I'll suggest another:

I mean no insult to the direct internet sales manufacturers and retailers. In fact, I consider the growth of the direct sales industry to be an unavoidable outgrowth of the internet, and for savvy audiophiles (like AC members  ) these firms have, overall, been a tremendous asset. But this is for the audiophile who already has the bug, who is willing to do a lot of online research, who tries to determine who's opinions are valid etc.
But this comes at the expense of the B&Ms, often rightly so. But how often do you hear "My town used to have 4 B&Ms, now there's none..." This has to result in less exposure for the average person who just might be sucked in to the eye candy he'd see on a trip into town, or at the mall. OTOH, great sound has been taken down a few $$$, but is this really creating interest in those not in the choir?

Is the fabulous customer service, great product, unprecedented price/perf ratio we enjoy from RedWine/CIA/Bolder etc. actually hampering the penetration of the high-end to the general public due to the internet sales model?

 

[TONEPUB]

As for Martin's comments, now that we have our website up and running, we are going to be covering more gear in the
500-1000 dollar a box range.

Yes, I do feel like you can get musically satisfying results for a couple thousand dollars, sometimes even less.
If we review more budget gear, our ad dollars won't go away, because even the guys like Conrad Johnson,
Nagra and Aesthetix (just to name a few) realize that we need to start planting some seeds really quickly to get
more people interested in this world if any of those guys ever want to keep selling the mega expensive gear.

As for your comment about the 10 thousand dollar CD player, no you don't have to spend 10k on a CD player.
However, if you want to hear fantastic digital (or fantastic analog for that matter) you do have to write the big check.
That's my position and Im sticking to it.  I've spent years listening at all levels and I think the affordable stuff is getting
better all the time; that's a great thing.

But you can't have a Porsche or a Ferrari for the price of a Corolla and that's just the way it is.  It's like that with
anything.  If you can't hear the difference, can't afford it, or don't want to deal with it, that's fine.  I can help you
put together a system for 2000 dollars that you will be very happy with and we have a lot more of that kind of
content on the way. 

Musicians not being audiophiles, well there's a couple of reasons there.

A.  A lot of the musicians I know have really blown their ears playing live and cant hear much nuance anymore anyway.
B.  A lot of the musicians I know don't make enough money to buy good hi fi and buy good instruments, so that's a no brainer
C.  Some of the musicians I've met have so much fun making music, they don't really care about listening to recorded music critically


On that note, no pun intended, there are quite a few musicians that are pretty successful that do have good systems
at home and really enjoy them.

Hope some of that helps!

[Daygloworange]

michaelavorgna,
You are quite accurate in that many professional musicians and many music lovers are not audiophiles. The point is, why aren't they?
WEEZ

A lot of professional musicians don't make a ton of money to spend on gear is one guess. Another guess is maybe it's because they are surrounded by the real thing every day and think it's kind of silly to try and recreate that at home. Another is that they are more interested in creating the music than trying to recreate it. There are however professional athletes like Krell guy Mike Piazza who are audiophiles....

You are both right. I've been a musician for over 25 years, a pro for over 10, and a recording enthusiast for over 20 years. Until about a year and a half ago, I wasn't into 2 channel audio, as far as my leisure audio system.

I have an obscene amount of money tied up in my home studio, and guitar and amp collection. So yeah, any money I had to spend went right into my studio and rig.

The other aspect is that when you are fully immersed in music as I was for many years (performing, rehearsing, recording etc), you get burnt from music. You need something else in your life to balance yourself out. It's very important to do so. So leisure music listening was very low priority. I would rather read or watch a movie or not have any stimulation of those senses at all, and would just go moto-crossing, skiing, mountain-biking or something very physical as another activity.

As far as the original post in this thread, while I agree with a lot of the other posts, I would suggest, among other things, that a lot of popular music is very fast food oriented (so to speak). In one ear and out the other. It's enjoyable for the time it's being listened to but soon after the sensation is gone. Style over substance is the norm. There is very little out there that has the nuance and depth that requires an audiophile caliber system to get the full artistic impact. In other words, you are not going to extract anything more profound in a lot of today's music. (insert you're own examples here...)

As far as young people becoming audiophiles, man, it's a whole different world they're growing up in. Most kids today can't sit still after being brought up with video games, computers etc...You have to remember we (well, a lot of us) were brought up in a different time. Saving up your lunch money and buying that LP was a big deal, it was a special thing. It's a mere commodity to today's kids, like many things are. At least that's what I see in a lot of today's youth.

Cheers

[Steve Eddy]

But you can't have a Porsche or a Ferrari for the price of a Corolla and that's just the way it is.

Yeah, but in this industry, price and cost to produce doesn't always bear the same relation that they do in the example you give here. You may pay the Ferrari price for that which costs no more to produce than the Corolla.

It would be interesting to see how quality is ranked among a number of components of widely varying pricetags when those assessing quality didn't have the benefit of knowing what they were listening to or its price.

se

[Daygloworange]

Yeah, but in this industry, price and cost to produce doesn't always bear the same relation that they do in the example you give here. You may pay the Ferrari price for that which costs no more to produce than the Corolla.

Yeah, that's the burn for sure. Also, with cars, you read the specs, you read the road tests, and you know that a Ferrari is going to smoke the Corolla, no ifs, ands, or buts. Simple. There is no debate as to the price/performance ratio of the two. The measurements don't lie. The same can't be said for audio. That's the burn.

Cheers

[TONEPUB]

True, and where I have seen the bell curve reverse is on some of the stratospheric priced gear.

I had a manufacturer who wanted us to review their amplifiers that cost about as much as a Porsche
ask me what I had in my reference system before he would send the amps out.  When I told him
that I had a C-J Act2/series 2 he told me that if I only had a $16,000 preamp as my reference, that
I couldn't possibly know what good sound was.

Though we are getting a little off topic here, I tend to agree with Eric the Red, kids have a lot
more distractions than I did at that age. (Im 47 yrs old, just so you know)

However, as I told someone the other day, these same kids are spending 12k on motorcycles
and buying Honda Civics with 10-20 thousand bucks worth of wheels, tires, exhaust systems
and CAR STEREOS...

So, it's not like they don't have access to the $$.

The big question is how to get them to spend money on amplifiers instead of jet skis
or GXR's and can that in fact be done?

[Greggo]

This looks like fun so I am going to jump in...

1)  i think the internet business model will actually save high end audio, its just that the conversion looks awful scary and it will take time for the critical mass to build again virtually just like it did physically when we all hung out at the local hifi shop.

2)  Most the of high end, the products, the publications, and the personalities are no different than any other industry... mostly absurd, no one really cares, and the sooner we all admit that most of us get turned on by the exotic materials, obsessive engineering, and exclusive knowledge of how this all comes together, the less anxious we will become in knowing that normal people just don't care and never will.

3)  If you are going to defend the actual "music" element of this pursuit, you should also admit that for every moment you and your family (or friends) have had dancing, singing, or simply listening together to your hifi system (I hope you all get at least a few, they are just so great...), you have probably had just as many moments in the car, on some most average car audio system, where you all had every bit as much fun.. and that in my mind is the crux of this issue.  After all is said and done, what level of resolution is required for us to share in the primal joy of music?  I think the iPod holds much truth, and when you switch from phones to speakers, is it really more resolution that the average person will want or perhaps just a more physical experience - bass you can feel, dynamics that will startle you, a lack of background noise...  probably those things much more than stable imaging, true timbre, cohesive transitions between drivers with perfect phase...

4)  We all enjoy the extra mile, and wonder why everyone else doesn't go the extra mile, while everyone else just thinks we need to try some new hobbies.  The high end "package" is all wrong, and niche players on the net will evolve into groups, forums, links, and eventually packages that make nice first steps from the iPod to the car, from the iPod to the bedroom, from the iPod to the living room (or family room, or media room, or whatever... but I think just like the album jacket gave us something to mark our memory back in our own day, associated video imagery will be what helps the next generation, which means that home theater, an equally frustrating topic, is a required context for the next generation audiophile, not for 7.1 channel surround, but for the smooth integration of information, visualization, followed by the pleasant auditory stimulation.

5)  I hate Bose, but they are practical where we are at times pathetic, ....  good design, adequate sound, lifestyle harmony in the house... yes I think people will do more, and will appreciate better sound, but stereophile Class A or B ain't gonna be where it is at for them.  Think smaller steps, think better integration with devices already in the home, think better value...

So now let me admit that this is all so slanted to my own limited experiences, but that I also believe the future of high end audio is in not trying so hard to be high end, and instead trying to much more simply enhance what is already in our lives/homes/cars.  Bringing new people into our industry is not about showing them what we do, but in starting with what they do.  And Martin is right, the BS in this business does nothing but distract those serious about true mass market aspirations, no one not already in this 12 step program of ours gives a sh*&t about $1000 dollar CD players let alone $10,000 players.  I can watch really good TV for 3k, and do really good computing for 3k, and get well set up for most hobbies for 3k, audio for more than 3k is not really meant for anyone except those who need to have bragging rights or those who just want to dive in so deep there is no coming back.  I am in that latter category, but trying real hard to think of a business plan that centers around delivering real satisfaction for 3k.  So that is my answer... bring them in by first meeting them right where they stand (they won't meet you half-way), offer baby steps that are real noticeable, highly integrated, and peak at a 3k investment point, then just wait for the normal 2% addiction rate that can't control themselves and we will have a few more new faces on this site typing away!

Regards,

Greg Jensen

[TONEPUB]

Yeah, but in this industry, price and cost to produce doesn't always bear the same relation that they do in the example you give here. You may pay the Ferrari price for that which costs no more to produce than the Corolla.

Yeah, that's the burn for sure. Also, with cars, you read the specs, you read the road tests, and you know that a Ferrari is going to smoke the Corolla, no ifs, ands, or buts. Simple. There is no debate as to the price/performance ratio of the two. The measurements don't lie. The same can't be said for audio. That's the burn.

Cheers

But the specs don't tell the whole story, even in the car world.

If you compare a  Porsche twin turbo, a Viper, a Z06 Corvette, a Ferrari 360, a BMW M5 and the new baby Aston Martin
by the specs, they all look pretty similar on paper.  They all go 0-60 right around the same time, stop from 70-0 about the
same time, all go about 180mph give or take a bit and except for the Aston, all pull right around 1G on a skidpad.

And except for the Vette, they all cost over 100k.  But if you get in those cars and drive them back to back, they are
completely different vehicles and that's where the nuance sets in.  This is what I've seen in a lot of medium to expensive
hifi gear.

The goal is to find gear that you like the sound and the budget.  There's tons of choices so it can be done.
We're just throwing out some suggestions.  TONE is not on the quest for the absolute sound, or the "Best"
anything.  I don't believe there is a best anything, just because music and sound is so subjective...

[TONEPUB]

This looks like fun so I am going to jump in...

Regards,

Greg Jensen

I have to say, I agree with you on almost all of this.  We are obsessed, no question. And I do agree that
decent sound can be had for $3k. (though I'd be more likely to say 3-10k, but Im probably getting near
the cliff too)

I also really agree that the internet just might save all this, only because I've had so many BAD dealer
experiences over the years.

For what it's worth, if you like music, I'm on your side.  You may not want to spend as much on a system
as I do, but I guarantee that anyone that I've met over the last 30 years that wanted my help with putting
something together has had my full attention, no matter how much they wanted to spend.

It's all good on that point!

[Steve Eddy]

Yeah, that's the burn for sure. Also, with cars, you read the specs, you read the road tests, and you know that a Ferrari is going to smoke the Corolla, no ifs, ands, or buts. Simple. There is no debate as to the price/performance ratio of the two. The measurements don't lie. The same can't be said for audio. That's the burn.

Right. And as a society, we're constantly being conditioned to think in terms of price equating to quality.

se

[michaelavorgna]

I'm not so sure we have agreement on what counts as performance or even relevant specs in this hobby. Kinda makes it difficult to put a price on a moving target.

"Like the sign says, 'speed's just a question of money. How fast can you go?'" from Mad Max

[TONEPUB]

Hey Steve:

I looked at your site while all of this was going on....

We'd love to review your cables at some point, I've always
been intrigued by the design, I just didn't put two and two
together!

Too busy working in Photoshop!

Let me know, I'd love to give you guys a go!

[Greggo]

I think the car analogy is a good one, with the other angle being that all of those cars mentioned, despite being very different, have something else in common.... they are based on a dream context that does not really exist on the typical roads, in typical traffic, for typical drivers.  Regardless of how they score amongst themselves, they seem silly to most people when scored against a Camry or Accord.

I just yesterday test drove an Audi A6 with my wife, then later in the same day we drove a Honda CR-V, as much as I wanted to love the A6, and I did love it, and as much as I tried to convince myself it was worth it, I knew better, and I am working on a deal for the new CR-V.  That doesn't mean that there are folks out there with A6's that enjoy them and made the right choice, it just means that if Audi is standing around saying why don't more americans invest in A6s instead of Camrys and Accords they are going to be scratching their heads for a long long time, but we know they are not completely stupid because the A3 and A4, though a bit overpriced, come closer to what the other 98% of us truly need and enjoy.

[Greggo]

so to finish that thought, the future of high end audio is in realizing that the A3 is the destination, not a stepping stone to the A6.  The A6 just sits there, and the bees that are naturally attracted to such honey will find it on their own.

[TONEPUB]

That's another part of the high end that is overlooked.  The value to you or me is totally different
than it is to someone that makes a lot more or a lot less money than we do.

And, weirdly enough, the Census bureau says that there are 9 million households in America
that have a net worth of 1 million or more, which probably means there are another 9 million
that are living beyond their means as if they made that kind of dough.

If money was no object, how would your decision differ?  I'm in the same boat.  When my
Toyota Rav-4 wore out after about 250K miles, I really wanted a BMW X3, but considering
I just use the thing as a daily commuter (usually hauling gear to fedex...) and I have a daughter
that's going to start driving in two years, I bought a Hyundai Tucson.

Would I rather have the X3?  You bet!  Did it make sense for our budget? Nope.
However, if I made about 30k a year more, I would have bought the BMW anyway.

So, it's all relative there as well.

But it's still fun to shop!

[TONEPUB]

Honestly, I think the future of high end audio has more than one solution.

Yes, for many the A3 is the destination.  I know a lot of people just want
a modest system, but many want more and that's why we do what we
do, try and help both of these people.

The ones that I feel bad for are the ones that are never happy with what
they purchase, no matter what level.

It's all about finding the best thing FOR YOU...

I don't expect most people to be as obsessed as I am!

[Greggo]

agreed... I think the thing that bothers me is that when you go to a car dealer, the questions of value, performance, quality and the relative context of things seem naturally presented in a fairly smooth fashion.  You can easily transition from price point to price point and see steps in between, and most people, even those who care little or know little about cars, can in short order kind of fall into the groove of it all and follow those steps and find the best fit for them.

In audio, it seems like it is crap in different packaging, with more or less buttons, and more or less familiar brand names, all on a familiar lot (a big box chain store), and then you leave the lot to go to another lot seeking alternatives only if someone whispers in your ear, because otherwise you would never know another lot exists, and at the new lot it is a wild free for all with everything from repackaged over-priced crap, to innovative new designs, to A3s to Ferraris, etc....

I don't think the big box stores and the brands they are in bed with will ever move towards that A3 so to speak.  It will take the new internet model to lay out the path, with something like the A3 being the sign-age that gets people heading in the right direction and once they are there, well then anything goes, but the critical mass builds around something more like an A3 than the more exotic stuff on the lot.

[Daygloworange]

The big question is how to get them to spend money on amplifiers instead of jet skis
or GXR's and can that in fact be done?

TONEPUB,

I'm not sure here. Is your interest in getting more people into being serious music listeners, or more direct to the point, of how to divert their disposable income to expensive audio systems instead of go fast goodies?  

Cheers

[TONEPUB]

I think its more a question of bringing people who love music, but don't know
about our world of hifi into it...

I've met a lot of very young music lovers that don't even know any of this
stuff exists!  All they know is their iPod and Best Buy.

So, it's a little bit of both I think. 

When I was young, I always liked go fast goodies, so I bought a big motorcycle,
drove the cheapest car I could afford and spent all the rest on hifi and LP's!
Girls would usually make fun of my junky cars!

(and tell me that wasting all this time on hifi was silly...)

[Daygloworange]

The kids that do all those tricked out cars, are more about excess and vanity. It's also a communal showoff thing. They just drive them to some local hang out and just sit there, bench racing. Most of them can't even drive well. It's a whole different mentality than audiophiles.

Audiophiles are all about excess with their systems for sure, but it's a means to an end, with the goal being better sound reproduction, and usually for their own personal enjoyment, with little or no regard if it impresses their friends or not. Very few people get to see their systems. It's usually enjoyed in solitary, for the most part.

Cheers