[TONEPUB]

I don't know...

I've been to a lot of homes with big Wilsons and associated gear that rarely if ever
gets played, or they just want to spend 5 min impressing you with how loud it will
play.

I think it's really hard to pin it down, that's what makes it so difficult.

I think we have wrench turners and check writers in both camps for sure!

[Affordable$$Audio]

Jeff:
The teacher in me believes the best way is to begin by discussing what music is on their iPod.  Then talk about file size differences between mp3 and AIF.  Finally, play THEIR music on a quality rig, once they hear the difference they may be inspired down the road.

It's all about planting seeds......

[Steve Eddy]

I think its more a question of bringing people who love music, but don't know
about our world of hifi into it...

I think it's best that they don't know about our world. For them to know about our world is for them to also know about bizarre-o shit like Intelligent Chips and wire that sells for five figures. Most would simply run screaming in the opposite direction.

In some ways this industry is its own worst enemy.

Rather than trying to bring them into our world, I think our world should selectively be brought to them in a form that's more suitable for the broader market.

se

[Daygloworange]

The teacher in me believes the best way is to begin by discussing what music is on their iPod.  Then talk about file size differences between mp3 and AIF.  Finally, play THEIR music on a quality rig, once they hear the difference they may be inspired down the road.

It's all about planting seeds......

Agreed. I am still astounded at the performance of the system I've built (which is still in flux). Considering my lengthy background in music and sound reproduction, even I have a hard time believing I could be that impressed with anything anymore. But I am, and continue to be.

I loaned my Squeezebox 3 to a buddy for a while. Now he's gone off the deep end and gotten one for himself and his father, trashed thousands of MP3's that he previously had, gotten a new amp,(his father as well) and are both currently shopping for speakers.

I have another buddy who( after hearing my system ) bought my current speakers off me, and is selling all his gear (quite an expensive multi component system) and going to a similar set up to mine. He had no idea about all this stuff we all have common knowledge of here on AC and other forums.

So yeah, I agree, invite some of these people over and let them hear music in a really well put together system. You'll see them get into it more.

Cheers

[launche]

Rather than trying to bring them into our world, I think our world should selectively be brought to them in a form that's more suitable for the broader market.

se

Essientially, this is a major point I was trying to make in the 10 paragraphs that I wrote 

[TONEPUB]

Gotta admit the idea of spending five figures on an interconnect is just freaky.

I talked to a guy at CES who was telling me about all the technology in his 30
thousand dollar pair of speaker cables and I told him that there was a lot of
technology in a new BMW 325i and it was only 33 thousand dollars!

He gave me a frown and sent me packing.

On the other hand George Cardas told me that he could have made a lot
more money selling 15k cables, but he couldn't sleep at night.

Personally, I have heard a lot of decent IC's in the 100-200 range and then
in the 300-600 range.  I don't think that's unreasonable.

However, wire is the last thing I always mention in the discussion...

[Steve Eddy]

Essientially, this is a major point I was trying to make in the 10 paragraphs that I wrote 

Heheh. Yes, as did one or two others I believe.

It's encouraging to know there are others who see the wisdom of this.

se

[Steve Eddy]

Gotta admit the idea of spending five figures on an interconnect is just freaky.

To say the least.

I talked to a guy at CES who was telling me about all the technology in his 30
thousand dollar pair of speaker cables and I told him that there was a lot of
technology in a new BMW 325i and it was only 33 thousand dollars!

He gave me a frown and sent me packing.

Heheh. Yeah, some of these people would have you believe they have R&D budgets the size of BMW's.

On the other hand George Cardas told me that he could have made a lot
more money selling 15k cables, but he couldn't sleep at night.

Yeah, that should be a problem for anyone with a conscience. I've always believed that when prices get up to that point, it really shows little more than contempt on the part of the manufacturer for their customers.

Personally, I have heard a lot of decent IC's in the 100-200 range and then
in the 300-600 range.  I don't think that's unreasonable.

What a coincidence. Me either. 

However, wire is the last thing I always mention in the discussion...

Good plan! 

se

[Daygloworange]

If money is no object then you can see that there is a market for expensive cables. They are made from unobtainium. (At least for us mere mortals, but not for cash heavy megalomaniacs) I saw an article in the Robb Report on audio cables, and pictured were these absolutely beautiful flat speaker cables of braided flat silver ribbon encased in clear teflon. It was pure art, very jewelry like.
I have to admit, I couldn't take my eyes off them. If I had obscene amounts of money, I would buy them based on that merit alone. And yes, for me at least, aesthetics play a certain role in everything. I'm not saying that I buy anything just because it looks cool, but if it looks cool, and sounds the way I like, then that's having my cake and eating it too.
So for a certain crowd, it's an exclusivity thing too, a conversation piece. Do you expect a guy who has spent (mega) large on an unobtainium system to then go to the Home Depot and buy zip cord and tell all his buddies how clever he was in choosing the orange (UL listed)extension cords to connect his zillion dollar components?

There are guys I know who spend more on a golf putter than other guys spend on their entire club collection, and still putt like crap compared to Happy Gilmore. 

It's sometimes about perspective and context, is all I'm sayin' 

Cheers

[eric the red]

It's also about passion for a hobby or different hobbys in general. Alot of people who listen to and enjoy music could give a crap about the gear they listen to music with. I play golf with a set of reject clubs that were handed down to me and have no desire to upgrade my clubs. But I still love to golf.

[MJK]

I think the car analogy is a good one, with the other angle being that all of those cars mentioned, despite being very different, have something else in common.... they are based on a dream context that does not really exist on the typical roads, in typical traffic, for typical drivers.  Regardless of how they score amongst themselves, they seem silly to most people when scored against a Camry or Accord.

I'm not sure here. Is your interest in getting more people into being serious music listeners, or more direct to the point, of how to divert their disposable income to expensive audio systems instead of go fast goodies?

Two very interesting quotes, I also have to wonder if we are talking about music reproduction and enjoyment or a lifestyle of fancy expensive toys.

Lets consider the car angle for a minute. Most Americans do not drive the fancy fast cars that have been discussed, they drive the Hondas and the Toyotas and are very happy with the results. I used to have a guy sitting next to me at work, we had shared a wall for many years. My neighbor drove an old beat up Honda Accord until one day he suddenly showed up in a new Audi, please don't ask me which one since I don't know or care. Overnight I started to get lectures that my family deserved better than my 98 Ford, they should ride in style. Yesterday the Honda was good enough for him, today he would not be caught dead in the Honda. But at the same time I started to hear him on the phone with the dealer, the Audi went through a string of problems that the dealer was not able to fix. The Audi was in the shop for weeks at a time while the guy in the white coat tried to get the electronic gizmo's to work. They brought a special guy in with an accent to work on his Audi. As his warranty started to run out I suggested that maybe he should consider trading in his Audi for a Ford, my family and I had never been let down by my Ford. I won't repeat his response. Bottom line was that he was all about status and his perception of himself, his image deserved an Audi and he was embarrassed by his Honda. Personally I could care less about the car I drive as long as it is reliable, comfortable, and affordable. My car makes the daily commute to work and back, I don't go from 0 to 60 in 4 seconds, travel at speeds over 100 mph, or put myself in situation where I need to go from 70 to 0 mph in 3 feet (well at least not every day). Most other Americans must agree with me about cars.

I think that some of the people in this thread who are really into the hobby and feel that the high cost of some of the equipment and cables is required and justified are really not able to see the topic from an outsider's point of view. So lets change it up a bit. Suppose one day you decided that you just had to have a pair of pants like MC Hammer used to wear in his videos, problem is you won't find them at Walmart any more so you need to make the pants. Gotta buy a sewing machine and make them yourself, the pants are what you want and the sewing machine is the instrument required to make the pants. How much are you going to spend? Ever priced a sewing machine? My wife makes quilts so I know a little about sewing machines and how much they can cost. Would you spend $300 on a basic Singer machine, $3000 on a Bernina or Viking machine, or something even more expensive. All you want is to make the pants, but the more expensive machines have more buttons, LCD display, and can connect to your computer and download and stitch pictures of stuff. But you only want to make the pants. Most people making their first pair of pants probably buy the Singer, if they really like making pants they might upgrade later and also make shirts.

Kind of like audio. I am into audio, I have a significant amount of money into my system and the music I play. I don't have any single piece of equipment that costs over $5000, total cost I don't talk about because my wife with the sewing machine would have a stroke if she knew. By looking at what is recommended in the high end magazines, I cannot possibly enjoy music. My system is flawed and does all kind of things wrong if I believe what I read. But I do like to listen to music and do enjoy my set-up.  Looking from the other side, most of my non audio addicted friends cannot understand my hobby. If you want to attract people into audio and listening to music you need to make it affordable in their eyes. I think entry level for decent quality is going to need to be in the $1000 dollar range, they can upgrade later if they really like the hobby. There is no way that the average person is going to order $3000 worth of equipment over the Internet as a starter system. There is no way that the average person is going to go to Stereophile's recommended list and assemble a system. This type of high end marketing will drive the average consumer away, this is where the loss of magazines like Stereo Review and High Fidelity really hurts the industry. The average person noe get audio recommendations from Consumer Reports.

The next time you read one of the high end publications like Stereophile, take a step back and read it from a different perspective. Don't get too close to the page and enjoy the reviewer's writing style and comments, instead look at it from an outsider's point of view. Look at the things being said, to me the elitism and arrogance just drips out of these reviews. Talk about snobs and people more concerned about image and expensive toys, this is what the outsider sees. These magazines are writing for their peers and not the person you are trying to attract to the hobby. If you look at the original question, I think the high end equipment, retailers, and publications current perception on audio is the wrong way to attract more new people. They are about audio equipment and lifestyle and not necessarily about music.

Martin

[TONEPUB]

No matter what hobby you are involved in, there are people who truly dig it and people who are just posing.

Just because you dont want to spend more money on your hi fi for whatever reason that's perfectly ok.
If you are happy with your system right where it is, that's even better, you are one of the lucky ones.  When people ask me what to spend another couple of thousand bucks on their systems, often I will say things like "get some more records" "take a vacation" or "buy your kids cool bikes".

Ultimately it is about enjoying the music, I agree.

However to deny the people that want the really good stuff that pleasure, just because you don't
see it as valid is unfortunate.  Telling me I can't have a BMW because you don't see the need for
it doesn't work for me.  I drive a pair of older 325's (an 87 and an 88).  I bought them from an enthusiast that really fussed over them, so they were in mint shape and after five years, they have
cost me a grand total, (with new batteries and sets of tires) about a thousand bucks to keep running.

I have a good freind that is a BMW mechanic and in exchange for teaching him about Photoshop,
he's taught me all the basic-intermediate maintenance stuff on my cars.

I like the driving experience and the performance of the BMW way better than a new Ford and trust me, no one is impressed with an 88 BMW.

As for hifi, I started out with about 200 bucks worth of hifi and now have a pair of very substantial systems.  I really enjoy it.  If I lost my job and had to go back to a couple thousand dollar system, that would be ok too, as long as I can keep my record collection!

However what I see with people like you is almost a reverse snobbery.  Somehow you feel what you are doing is "better" because you haven't spent as much money as others and that people that have are doing it just for status.  Yes, some of those people do, but again I don't see a high buck stereo system as a status symbol.  A sign of obsession, maybe.

You don't have to spend a lot of money on hifi to enjoy music.  Even TAS is starting to review more budget gear and commenting pretty favorably.

No offense, but I think you are missing the point somewhat.

There is plenty of musical enjoyment to be had at every level.  What's important is to find where that level is for you, your life and your pocketbook. 

I'm pretty excited about the gear I own and because of my job, I get to listen to music about 10 hours a day, so its a blast.  At CES, I heard the giant MBL system that was worth about 700 thousand dollars and it was incredible. Blew my 100k reference system in the weeds by a big margin.

Do I think its cool?  You bet! 
Do I wish I could have it? Not losing any sleep over it.
Would I take the stuff in for a month or two to review?  Im working on it...

I just helped a neighbor put a system together for 700 dollars.  We found him a pair of
AV123 speakers, a really nice Pioneer reciever on Ebay for 100 bucks and a demo
Music Hall CD player.  To him music sounds way better than it ever has and he loves it!

I also just helped another freind (who is quite wealthy but never outgrew his love
for music) buy a six figure system.   He's had a big promotion and makes a ton more money
than he used to, but in the meantime just kept buying records and CD's.  He too is
happy as a clam.

Don't kid yourself.  A lot of people that have the mega stuff do really enjoy it.

It doesn't mean the entry to mid level stuff isn't great too.

This is supposed to be fun after all...

[Dan Banquer]

"The next time you read one of the high end publications like Stereophile, take a step back and read it from a different perspective. Don't get too close to the page and enjoy the reviewer's writing style and comments, instead look at it from an outsider's point of view. Look at the things being said, to me the elitism and arrogance just drips out of these reviews. Talk about snobs and people more concerned about image and expensive toys, this is what the outsider sees. These magazines are writing for their peers and not the person you are trying to attract to the hobby. If you look at the original question, I think the high end equipment, retailers, and publications current perception on audio is the wrong way to attract more new people. They are about audio equipment and lifestyle and not necessarily about music.

Martin "

Well done Martin!
             d.b.

[TONEPUB]

I do agree with a bit of the reviewing rhetoric...

I was pretty apalled when I read Jonathan Valins article about the
15k Interconnects when he said it was fun to have them because
no one could afford them.

Not really spreading the love around...

I guess I see it more as silly rather than with contempt
though.

As I recall Mikey Fremer wrote a pretty enthusiastic article
about an Outlaw reciever a few months ago.

[WEEZ]

...back to the original question; "How to get more people into our world, how do you do it?"...

TONEPUB, What is YOUR suggestion?

[MJK]

... there are people who truly dig it and people who are just posing.

However what I see with people like you is almost a reverse snobbery.

No offense, but I think you are missing the point somewhat.

TONEPUB,

I repeated a couple of your quotes above.

The question was asked how to get more people into audio and I tried to give you an idea of the way the average person now views audio and open you eyes to the way the high end publications/manufacturers are seen by some (actually many) people. The audio industry, B&M stores, and publications have changed since I started into audio and I believe this is why the number of people in the hobby is contracting. There are more types of electronics competing for people's attention and they are available in any mall at reasonable prices.

I did not attack your right to buy, own, or enjoy your equipment no matter what the cost. But now you have become defensive because an alternate view is being presented that maybe you don't want to hear or recognize, it is not an attack. Maybe your question should have been phrased how to get more people into the high end audio world at which point my posts would not have been on topic and I would not have offered my opinions and observations.

So I guess I remain a posing snob who does not get the point of audio. I can live with that. Not much else I can contribute to your discussion, you will probably feel better now that an alternate opinion has been silenced and the yes-men can dominate the discussion.

Martin

[Greggo]

Yes, and I bought that Outlaw receiver on a whim in part due to that review.  Replaced an aging pre-power combination that was fairly well like back in the late 80s (Perraux SM6 pre and MB-1150 ??? can never get the spelling or model correct off the top of my head) and my wife and I think the system overall is better for it.  The problem is that I would never find that receiver and feel good about it starting from the mass market club, and I would never really feel good about it stepping into the high end audio club, because even though I agree 100% with Jeff, I also agree with Martin.

The High End is certainly justifiable to many, and to some like myself, I appreciate how it has informed my decisions and my appreciation of music in my home, but it took many years to break away from the snobbish treadmill that the industry seems so intent on getting all of us to run on.  The market for kilobuck systems is definitely there and not going away, and I don't begrudge any members of that club and I have no problem believing that many of them have earned the right to direct such investments and are also capable of truly enjoying the finer points such system allows one to appreciate.  What I think drove the start of this thread, and has all of us really pushing the context and comparisons here in, is what happened to the middle ground?  I remember when the Infinity IRS first came out, I thought it was cool, I was lucky to hear it at San Francisco high end show at the age of 16, and yet it seemed to have no affect on the lust for AR or Snell speakers and Carver amps, and all of us who could go no higher than grabbing those types of components on the used market were happy as pigs in shit, and would bring those things out for our beer swilling friends at parties and some people would walk away thinking there JC Penny combo really was junk and it would be worth it to save up for something a little better.

That happy middle ground gets lost in the sea of mass market crap, and, purposeful or not, gets the red headed step child treatment from the high end.  Most audiophiles are just dying to see sticker shock in a newbies eyes, ready to take them straight into Listening Room #1 and blow them away, and that attitude just permeates this industry like a virus running through an elementary school.  Yes, I am sure there are some good dealers out there who know how to make you feel great about bringing home a 3k system, and know how to make that 3k system clearly sound like a step up from Best Buy to just about everyone who hears it, but those guys are a dying breed and the economics won't hold up for them, which is why they should all start building web sites right now and learning how to develop local partnerships and forums that will form a new business model for them.  One that allows the newbie to spend 3-6 hundred dollars for some new stuff based on word of mouth and forum info, and then maybe up to 1-1.5k per component or two as confidence in the virtual retailer grows along with an appreciation for the improvements in sound he/she is getting at home.

The path for digital source, pre, and modular power amps (and soon speakers) is already there, as demonstrated by many vendors on this site... the trend will continue to the point where we buy PC cards, software, black boxes, etc.. that are an extension of our home computer and real performance will be had with $200 software, $200 PC card, and a $400 dollar power supply and switching/distribution box of some sort.  The key to this, in my mind, is the concept of a speaker as we know it today (cost driven mostly by the furniture aspect of building and delivering a pair to the home) versus what it might be in the future (integrated into the wall, modular, assembled ikea style...).  I have no doubt such changes will turn this industry upside down.  Why upgrade to new speakers when you could simply put in a new driver and make the software changes as directed by your new speaker vendor?  Why have everything in a cabinet (see the dipole forums)?  Why not design speakers with mounting plates rather than driver cut outs, so drivers can be replaced over time without needing another baffle and/or cabinet?  I think it is coming, and with the new model will be a more honest way to address the needs of the newbie and make them feel like they are king of the hill without having to actually be a king and live on a hill, in a castle that will accommodate the kilobuck reference system that our industry gets so giddy about each and every year.

Regards,

Greg Jensen

[TONEPUB]

I just made another post about giving kids vintage recievers.

However, I've found the best way to get people into this is to
just expose them to it gently...

My studio where I do all of my listening is out behind my house.
I have a pretty modest but good sounding system in my living
room inside the house and that's what I let the newcomers listen
to.  Not much in the way of cables, etc.

I try to minimize the technology aspect completely.  No tubes
in the living room either, that usually scares off most (but not all)
newbies. No vinyl either, just a little used Naim Nait 5i and an iPod
or Squeezebox.  Got a used pair of ProAc Tablettes that I picked up
for a few hundred bucks, that's it!

Usually about half way through the conversation, they will say
something like "this sounds really great, but I can't afford an
expensive stereo like this!"

When they find out that they are only listening to about 1500
dollars worth of gear (including the iPod) they usually say
something like "wow, a freind of mine spent more than that
at Best Buy and it sounds terrible!"

The one advantage I have is that my wife really loves music
and she's been cool with hifi ever since I met her, so I've never
had the wife resistance factor.  Also, she's told a number of
friends wives that she really enjoys having a good stereo around.

So, in that sense I do have an unfair advantage.  

Even then, when faced with wives that don't want THOSE
BIG BOXES IN MY HOUSE, but would still like good sound,
we've chatted about Naim, Linn, McIntosh etc.  What I've found
here is that the average wife that wouldn't let their husband
spend 1500 bucks has on more than one occasion walked into
a Naim dealer and dropped ten grand on a Naim system because
it was compact, attractive and good sounding.

In the end, even though it may have sounded like I was giving
Martin a hard time, I do agree with the low key approach.  

Most people have hectic lives and the last thing they want
is to get acquainted with a new piece of technology to deal
with.

And no matter what your hobbies are, chances are that you dipped
your toe in the pool before you got way into it.

Even when exposed later to the big system, a lot of people really
enjoy it and they realize that I do this for a living and have been
obsessed with it all my life.  I don't expect anyone to be as mental
about this as I am!

But a lot of it is about listening.  What do people want to spend?
How much room do they have for it?  Are they Camry people that
just want some nice music in the background?  Sometimes they
just see the Music Hall radio in the bathroom and want one of those!

Once in a while, you get someone who wants to go nuts and that's fun
too.

I always ask people how big their record collection (or CD, I use the
term generically) is.  A good friend of mine wanted to buy an 80gb
iPod to go on vacation because it would hold 15000 songs!

However, he only has about 90 CD's and a Nano proved to be a much
smarter purchase for now.

I guess the most important thing is really to find people that are intrigued
with hearing their music sound better.  I honestly don't see the status/gadget
guys as being a big part of the equation.

If we can just get people to see how much fun it is to listen to a good
music system in a somewhat gentle fashion, that's the way I've been
able to spread the good word...

[TONEPUB]

Well Martin, sorry you feel "silenced".  It's still a free country last time I checked
and you are entitled to your opinion.  I don't see you as a poseur.  I see the guy
that owns a 60k pair of Wilsons that he bought because one of his freinds at the
country club has a pair too (and has about 50 CD's in his collection) as a poseur.

I looked at your website, seeing what you build, you are definitely an enthusiast in
my book.

I just don't think that everyone views what is referred to as "high end audio" with
as much contempt as you do and you are more than welcome to your opinion.

Actually while we are on the subject, I wish we could drop the term "high end" altogether.

Where does High end begin?  Personally I hate the term.  I don't like people shying away
from enjoying their music for fear that they don't have a "high end system"

I spoke to the Arizona Audio Society two weeks ago and told them that my main goal
with TONE is to help people find gear that they enjoy, no matter what the price tag.

That's why we're out here in the first place to see how our readers are reacting and what
they think of what we are doing.  We are just a channel on the cable box.  If you like
our show, stay and tell your friends.   If you don't like our show, you will probably leave
and tell your freinds we suck.  That's all we can do.

I totally agree with Greggo, you don't have to be on the hill or be king of it.  You just have to
enjoy music. But there will always be people that are enthusiastic/obsessed/crazy whatever
you want to call it.  I don't necessarily see anything wrong with that either.

[BobRex]

So how do you get more people involved?  I'd say forget the magazines, they just cloud the issue.  Has anybody bothered to try to work with home builders?  Not just on home theater or integrated systems, but on real life audio systems?  Builders often have open houses,frequently with furnished rooms.  Seems like a perfect time to highlight a moderate system, tastefully set up.  How about setting something up at a home show?  Once again, you'd need to do it correctly and there will be some (possibly substantial) costs involved, but if the idea is to sew the seeds, then somebody's got to bite the bullet.  You've got to go to the people, don't expect them to come to you.  When was the last time a B&M dealer advertised on tv?  Or for that matter any manufacturers?  Yeah, I know cottage industries and all that, but you need to be agressive.  Why does Joe sixpack think Bose is so good?  Not because they went on the internet, read the reviews, and then hunted down a dealer for a demo.  No, they were told by experts (Herbie Hancock ring a bell?) how great the product was.  That's all it takes.

This Old House did a segment on a system with a Clearaudio tt and a dealer explaining why vinyl.  How many people saw that?  That's the type of exposure the hobby needs!