[WEEZ]

Pardon my old-age ignorance, but what is DRM?

[Steve Eddy]

Pardon my old-age ignorance, but what is DRM?

Digital Rights Management

se

[rollo]

When was the last time a high end system was showcased in a movie,TV show,newspaper?
     IMO if a movie had a sexy star[say Angelina Jolie,or Brad Pit] playing their highend rig or having sex on a pair of speakers or something,man would sales increase.I could see her now making love
to those horns .Kidding aside,exposure is the key to attracting the general public.If I was a manf. of high end gear I would give a system to a hot movie star and exploit it like crazy.
rollo

[rodge827]

Hello all,

I'm a newbie here to the AC community and thought this would be a good thread to cut my teeth on. So here goes it.

I agree with many of the statements and ideas that have been raised here. The issues of time , cost, knowledge, marketing to the masses, and the rapidly changing listening habits of consumers are all very valid.

The issue that I feel should be addressed is Musical Education. Many of us here had the good fortune of growing up in a time when the was such a thing as a mandatory music class. This was the hook for me. In grade school we learned about different instruments and the unique character that each brought to the music table. We also had the chance to explore an instrument if we so choose. In Jr high and high school there was the opportunity for band class and to be part of the music making process. At times for me there was no bigger thrill than for the band to get a new piece of music and after some time and guidance to pull it all together and create music. Much of this is missing today in the ever shrinking school budgeting for the arts. Many students today don't know the difference between an alto sax and a tenor sax, because they have never had the opportunity to actually hear them together. That said: how can a newer generation truly appreciate the value of a good high end audio system ?

I feel that a partial solution, is for the music industry as a whole, to lobby, fund, and implement musical education. To get a young person to appreciate music for all that it is, can only help the bottom line in the long run.

FWIW I'm not an educator, nor am I affiliated with any school district in any capacity (only a tax payer). I'm just a guy who learned about music at a young age and that experience led me to this hobby, where many hard earned dollars have been spent in search of the musical truth.

Thank-you for the eye time,

Rodge

[WEEZ]

Thanks for the DRM explanation and link, Steve.

rodge827,

First, welcome to Audio Circle! Second, I agree wholeheartedly with your post. I think it was in a Stereophile editorial where it was stated (something to this effect).."Most people don't really like music, they just like the way it sounds".

Sadly, many people only have music playing as background noise, and cannot imagine just sitting down and listening to music for the sake of listening. Some may like what they hear, but don't really know what to listen for.

WEEZ

[michaelavorgna]

This is one of those great questions that take only a few words to ask but may need volumes to fully answer While I have some thoughts of my own on this subject, a wonderful essay exists by Markus Sauer in Stereophile called "God is in the Nuances". Even though this was written in 2000, I think there are still a lot of relevant points made. Definitely worth a read imho.

http://www.stereophile.com/features/203/index.html

Tone Audio seems to be doing a few things already to help bridge this "gap" namely starting with a very professional (and beautiful) layout and moving music into the foreground. The relationship with Soundstage Direct (having their LP reviews on the Tone site with links back to Soundstage Direct) is a very good idea and you can view this as a bridge to help close that “gap”. It would be interesting and perhaps more to the original point of this thread to see that relationship echoed on the Soundstage Direct site. Reciprocal linking: audio>music and music>audio.

Cheers

[TONEPUB]

Thanks for all the comments so far.

My experience with the 20 something generation usually begins with them
plugging their iPods into one of my systems and getting pretty excited.

It also really helps when they find out that Im really interested in their music
instead of just trying to make them listen to mine. It usually ends up with
us finding out we actually have a lot more crossover than they thought we
would have!

I've seen a few of these people in the last year, go from having iPods to
having decent systems.  Once they get the bug, it's hard to shake!

[AB]

I have worked with these folks:

http://www.leisuretrends.com/default.asp

Their "Leisure Trak" report includes "listening to music" as an activity.

The data is always pretty eye opening.

[shep]

Tonepub, I think maybe you answered your own question. Given the short attention span of most under 30's these days (present company excepted!), the simple approach maybe the best. Something along the lines of "Now that you've had a taste, with your i-pod, isn't it time to hear the real thing?"

[MJK]

I am relatively new to the audiocircles forums and for the most part I have been only following one or two of the specialty forums. But the other night I was surfing and saw this interesting topic and actually stopped to read a little in your forum. I thought about the question you asked on and off last night and today at work, slow day for once, and decided to toss out a few observations. Tonight I downloaded one of you e-zines, number 7, and took a quick read through to see what new slant you might have on audio. So I have composed the following essay.


The Probable Death of HiFi Audio
-------------------------------

If I look back at my growth in audio starting as a teenager and compare it to the parallel growth of my oldest child who is about the same age I was when I started collecting music and his audio experience, I see the decline of the audio market and predict the death of high quality music reproduction systems in the next 10 to 20 years. I'll start in the mid to late 1960's when I was just a little younger than my son is now, lived in this same town, and was finding I was very interested in popular music just like he is at this time. By drawing comparisons to what I experienced and his interests, I am not very optimistic for two channel high fidelity equipment.

My Path :

At my son's age I was already a big music collector. My entire allowance and any other income was typically spent in the record department of a large local department store. I bought the Beatles, Cream, the Who, and the Rolling Stones to name just a few groups. Big album jackets with covers to study and hidden pictures and lyrics added to the experience. I listened to these albums on my parents big console stereo cabinet and my brothers and I made plenty of smoke every time we blew it up forcing my Dad to replace the cooked tubes. When my friends got together, we listened to the albums in our collections which drove our parents nuts.

By the time I got out of college and started my first engineering job, I new the most important thing to buy was my own decent hi fi set-up. Again I saved and invested in equipment, upgrades, and even more albums. I read Stereo Review, High Fidelity, Stereophile and a number of other magazines. I frequented the half dozen or more local audio stores and bought equipment every year, probably every few months.  As time went on, I dragged my new wife to many different audio stores, record shops, and friend's houses to listen and compare set-ups and music. Music and audio was my interest and still is to this day, but things have changed.

My Son's Path :

My son is 15 years old, he really likes music. My three children all play multiple instruments and are in the school chorus, band, or orchestra. They listen to music all the time on their boom boxes and iPods. But they have no interest in audio or the equipment. Why?

If I look at what my three kids like to do for entertainment the top interests are the computer, the playstation, and the iPods. When they get together with friends it is to use the computers or the Playstation, music is not a big part of the entertainment or of any significant interest beyond light listening. They own a few CD's but mostly they download music onto iTunes. The department stores where I first saw and heard a stereo system don't sell equipment anymore, the stereo stores I used to visit are all gone, and the independent music stores are all gone or bought by the chains that only stock about 10 different popular titles. Even the mid fi magazines are essentially all gone.

The other thing facing young people today who might be interested in hi fi is the absolutely low quality of the recordings they hear through their earbuds. Most of these "artists" have very little musical talent in my opinion and some cannot even sing. I had a young engineer visit me one nigh and we listened to my system with some of their popular music and then some of my classic jazz recordings from the 1950's. They were stunned at the compressed sound and really AM radio recording quality of their CDs compared to my run of the mill Blue Note CDs. I did not even need to break out the demo CDs I play for my audio buddies.

What I see today :

I consider myself to be a stereo nut, everybody's definition is different so I might not qualify in the eyes of some on this forum. But I do qualify at work where the population is more representative of a fairly well paid professional workforce. Nobody at work is really interested in audio and equipment anymore. Even my interest in the equipment is starting to die. Again, why?

The lack of an affordable quality audio retailers and decent music stores are two of the main reasons. The lack of magazines that feature reasonably priced high performing products also contributes to the lack of interest in myself and the general public. Audio is killing itself with its product offerings, magazine selections, and distribution network.

When I look at Stereophile and even your e-zine, I am immediately confronted with multi-thousand dollar preamps, receivers, and playback devices. A budget cable at $100. The only reasonably priced equipment is a few very small two way speaker at about $500, most people have no interest in something that is that plain looking and small. Pieces of equipment costing $5000, $10000, and even more are reviewed in glowing terms in the audio press and at the audio shows. Are you people on crack?

Only seeing this high priced gear in the audio press is turning many off to audio, why would they compromise on what they now perceive as some piece of crap receiver for $500 when the audio press gushes over a $10000 preamp that you have to have to make the music sound like it should.  Why waste the money on something affordable when it can't compare to that fancy preamp in Stereophile's list of recommended components. People feel like they are wasting money and don't realize that the performance differences are probably very subtle. It has become an elitist group of buyers and reviewers looking down their noses at the unwashed masses. The gap between the average home audio system a family can afford and the audio industry is growing rapidly. The average young person can spend $149 on an iPod and a few hundred dollars on accessories and have a state of the art system in their eyes.  Why venture beyond that level?

I could afford to have one of those Stereophile recommended component systems if I wanted it. When I upgraded my amp and preamp a year ago I looked hard at a highly rated high end set-up and eventually walked away from the local high end store that was showing me the equipment. I bought something more reasonable that I could justify the cost of to myself and whose sound was good enough for me. The selection of what I considered reasonable was amazingly limited! Oh, the high end store went under six months later.

Basically, the entry level and mid fi equipment seems to have disappeared. This is where the audio companies in the past sold to the masses and spawned the interest and obsession of the next generation of high end audio equipment buyers. The seeds are not being planted and the enjoyment of the hobby has been lost. Audio is competing with home theater, computer games, the Internet, and the multitude of video game systems. The only place young people are spending money on audio is on car audio, mostly big noise makers. Home audio is loosing quickly among the next generation of customers and even among the potential return customers when the kids leave the house. The audio industry needs to recalibrate and start offering high quality reasonably priced equipment that is accessible in retail outlets close to the customers.

I think people would return to audio if there is a selection of high quality receivers, preamps, amps, and Cd players in the $500 to $1000 dollar price range. They will spend more for speakers because the audible difference will be much larger as the price rises. Average people will spend $1000 to $2500 on a receiver, CD player, and speakers if the performance is really good, they can hear and touch the equipment, and they really enjoy music. Look how many people are buying Bose systems which are marketed to the masses, you may hate Bose but he is selling a lot of systems. Very few people will spend $5000 on one component and $100 on a cable or power cord. The high end audio industry is killing itself.  Bose is winning with the masses.

Just my opinion sitting here in Upstate New York,

Martin 

[launche]

As I said before, I truly believe slicker and more hip marketing and hi-fi in a box in the ticket to get people's feet wet.

In fact we have two gents here who if they could pull it all together could start to make a splash amongst a nice wide demographic to get more people "in"

Louis & Vinnie of Omega Loudspeakers and Red Wine Audio.
It almost seems ready made to me.  Vinnie's modding the Ipod, Olive components and Squeeze Boxes.  He has the very nice Battery powered Siggies etc...  Louis has the wonderful sounding, simple and reasonably priced Omega speakers.  They already have a partnership on sorts.  To most people their brands are novel, cutting edge, well crafted etc...  The only thing missing my friends is the meeting of the minds regarding this agenda and a nice marketing campaign.

They should simply put together some packages at varying price points, market them aggressively as ready made hi-fi (cutting egde) systems, add marketing approaches of choice and hit the so called lo-fi and mid-fi markets with serious ad campaigns.  To the younger folks what's cooler than having your IPOD modded into a serious sounding player.  Mate that with something like the Clari-T (or something similar) and some Omega Super 3's etc... and for a very reasonable price ($1500-$2000) you have a very nice system.  That's gets youngsters or people "in"  they get to keep their Ipod topology and get turned onto something else cool, like battery powered tri-path amps,  and single driver speakers and so on.  I think this is "cool", "different" and "hip" and fits in with their modern technology.  And honestly with decent marketing and the systems approach I could see this being extremely successful.  The upmarket systems would be the Sig 30 or 70's, Olive Musica or Squeezebox with some Compact, Super or MaxHemps etc...  Once again marketed slickly as a system that later can still be used individually if upgraditis occurs.  Vinnie already has a great tagline, start the "Get off the Grid" ad campaign, it's hip, anti-establishment yada yada.  The whole... this ain't your parents system approach.  Omega can use an "Are You Single?" ad Campaign and/or "Single Driver, Co-pilot Wanted" and so on.  Run these ad campaigns together marketed to the masses I think it works very well.

Now I know these gents may have already considered this and that they are hard at work handcrafting their gems.  But I see real mass potential here, the word just isn't out.  From what I gather these are superb sounding products across the board. IN in their shoes, if able I would be finding the resources to try this approach. I mean I was at an annual music festival recently (maybe 100,000 people there over the few days of the event.)  What if their were an Omega/Redwine booth there manned by some handlers (or better yet an AC member or product owner doing a simple demo but mainly directing to the website and literature,) outfitted with Get off the Grid, IMOD & Are You Single? t-shirts, demoing a small Imod/Olive based system (no electricty...how nice the folks would say.)  Websites in plain view, flyers distributed etc... maybe a raffle for a free mod service with purchase.  Small sponsership of an up and coming touring rock band, enough to get your gears in the print material or some written or verbal press at the events.  This grass roots approach works and starts a (under)ground movement amongst the people who are your target group and have Ipods (and would be keen on Olive/SB gear), who are looking for something affordable, unique and chic.

Every major city/town has at least one free local paper (Citylink where I am) where the ad campaigns could be run.  Used CD stores usually cater to young rockers etc... and house press info for local gigs etc...  No reason why Get off the Grid and Are You Single? posters wouldn't work there as well and so on.  Offer a raffle or half court shot wins something at major colleges during Midnight madness type events followed up by the ad campaigns... hello 10,000+ prospective buyers for their first college system of $1,500+.  I could go on but I think you get the point.  Just takes some dollars, some sweat and creative thinking and you (or someone's) gotta hit the streets to some degree.  Man I just pictured all these college kids walking around campus wearing the "Get off the Grid, IMOD (Therefore I Jam) and Are You Single? t-shirts...sweet.

Ummm, you guys looking for a shareholder or something, I gotta few bucks stashed away 
And I have a friend who makes custom printed t-shirts.
I'll buy the first one 

This is my take on what will help get people "in" and this is very do-able IMO, the sources are already in place and the products are great and a great number of us enjoy and believe in these gents approach, I'm sure others will too, audiophile or not.

[TONEPUB]

Martin:

Well, we aren't on crack, at least not at TONE...

I agree with a lot of what you say to a point, however, when we took a pretty wide ranging
survey of our readers 50% said they wanted us to review MORE expensive gear and 50%
said less.  Now that we have our web content up, there will be a lot more entry level gear in
the $250 to $2500 range coverered.

As for the more expensive equipment, we have a lot of interest in that segment of the hifi
world.  While on one hand one can put together a very musically involving system for a
few thousand dollars, the good gear costs a lot more money and if you want sound to be
reproduced at that level, you have to spend the big money.  As much as it will torque some
readers off, I am not a believer in the "giant killer" philosophy.

Yes, I have heard things here and there that offer more value at certain price points than
others, I have never heard a $1000 CD player or turntable outperform a $10K CD player
or turntable.  As Michael Fremer likes to say, "don't shoot the messenger"

Of course DIY and buying great gear used can really save a ton of money on a system,
because a lot of the guys that like the mega expensive gear, tend to go through it pretty
quickly.

The bottom line is that we want people to enjoy their music no matter how much they
spend.  As I said with our website kicking in, we will have a lot more entry level gear
reviewed because I feel that it is really important to get more people into the hobby.

[TONEPUB]

As I said before, I truly believe slicker and more hip marketing and hi-fi in a box in the ticket to get people's feet wet.

I completely agree with you there.  Some of the easiest gear that I've been able to sell to my freinds and their
wives has been stuff that is easy to use and attractive!

I would even like to see something like an iMac with only a 12" screen that you just use as an iTunes server.
Make it with a high quality audio out or digital out and jack it into a power amp....

I'm working on a full blown Nagra system for my living room, but that's a little bit on the spendy side.
but that pyramid amp gets the thumbs up from all of my friends wives!!

Keep that thought going, it's a good one!

[MJK]

I agree with a lot of what you say to a point, however, when we took a pretty wide ranging survey of our readers 50% said they wanted us to review MORE expensive gear and 50% said less.

You are only polling the people already in the hobby, your response is predictable. Your topic was how to get more people involved in the hobby which is a different slant.

As for the more expensive equipment, we have a lot of interest in that segment of the hifi world.  While on one hand one can put together a very musically involving system for a few thousand dollars, the good gear costs a lot more money and if you want sound to be reproduced at that level, you have to spend the big money.

Statements like that are the reason audio is dying. You turn off so many people by telling them that they cannot get there unless they spend tons of money. In reality the more money you spend the less return you get per dollar, music can be enjoyed at any level. You are catering to a very limited audience which is shrinking and not being replenished.

I think another interesting aspect of your comment concerns where your support is coming from. You have said that advertising dollars support your publication and the equipment your review is consistent with the type of advertisements. How much would your balancing act between reviews and advertising income change if you started providing advice/recommendations for ~$500 components and speakers? I wonder how locked into a market these publications really are and if the high end is painting itself into a corner. If you start recommending and reviewing more affordable equipment, would the advertising dollars disappear? 

I have never heard a $1000 CD player or turntable outperform a $10K CD player
or turntable.

Are you listening with your wallet or your ears? Are you listening to the music or the equipment? I doubt many young people today are going to spend $10K on a CD player, there is no reason that a CD player has to cost this much other than greed. The hobby is dying.

I have to wonder if you really wanted an answer to your question, seems you only wanted confirmation of you high end high priced equipment. You can ignore me if you want, I won't bother you anymore. We are clearly in different worlds.

Martin

[slugworth]

I agree with MJK, the purpose of this thread seems to be to sell stuff, and not to create interest in quality music reproduction. As for me, if the audiophile community dries up,  there will be that much more high-end gear I can get cheap.

[michaelavorgna]

I think the answer to this question is more complex then we're giving it credit. I am not talking about how to market to a certain demographic; I am talking about understanding the issues at hand. I don't believe "the problem" has to do solely with the cost of equipment, the common reviewer approach, the state of music, the iPod or marketing. While D) all of the above gets us closer, I'd agree that audio has an image problem.

An example - in the current Men's Journal (my wife gave it to me as gift and a not very subtle hint) there's a feature called "A Man's Toys". Among the dream stuff there's a $24,000 foosball table, $24M yacht, $32,500 pool table...Audio is represented by a Wurlitzer iPod jukebox for $4,989 (uses Bose speakers for "pristine sound") and B&W speakers for $12,000. In the same issue they feature the Fatman iTube "and you can ask any stoner/sound geek about the sound difference between tube amps and cheaper transistor amps". These examples speak volumes about some of the issues audio faces in terms of perception.

There's also a feature on "World's Finest Watches". I don't believe that anyone would suggest the Audemars Piguet at $75,800 is killing the watch business. The fact that they've been around for 130 years would seem to suggest otherwise. But my Nixon watch tells time just fine for my purposes. And I certainly could have bought a much less expensive watch that would function just as well. Besides, anyone who carries a cell phone doesn’t really need a watch anyway…

Someone paid $345,000 for a six-magnum case of Château Mouton-Rothschild 1945 at a Christie's auction last year. And this was reported in the Wine Spectator. Is that killing the wine business? Fact is that doesn't interfere with my enjoyment of an $8 bottle o red, especially if I'm having more than one. And while we're at the auction houses, the fact that paintings, drawings, prints and photographs can cost millions doesn't mean I can't enjoy the stuff that hangs on my walls…

The connoisseur is an essential ingredient in perception. I'd suggest that audio, like every other hobby fueled by discretionary income, needs its connoisseurs. And defining the state-of-the-art is part and parcel of the hobbyist thang. After all, the concept of the best for my budget relies on a state-of-the-art ideal.

One issue with audio reviews is they can give you the impression that you’re never done – you can always get it better. But I’d suggest that’s their job. And by including ultra-expensive unobtainable items, they keep people reading. Keep you striving toward that ideal. After all, what hobbyist publication wants to effectively turn away its readers? “OK just buy X, Y and Z and you’re done. Forever.”

In the end, the best hi-fi is the one we own and listen to. That’s because hi-fi is not as important as music. And here's where this hobby is different than many others - it's a means toward an end (ideally). It is not an end in itself. So I'd say a focus on music (the end) is a good first step in shifting the tides of perception. How does the quality of our hi-fi relate to our appreciation of music? I'd also suggest that we need publications that appeal to our connoisseurs (and we already have them) and…I think I’ve gone on long enough.

[launche]

Well maybe the general perception is that music has lost its value to the listener. 

That a vast majority of it is not geniune and lacks any real artistry and musicianship.  Yes what I'm speaking about is generally Pop music but those are the masses that I presume we are talknig about.  The radio won't play real musicians anymore.  The media promotes an image over musicianship etc...

I would bet that the most "music lovers" and "audiophiles" would be hard pressed to identify popular songs of today.  And the mass public would be even harder pressed to recognize what's in an audiophiles collection.

And so on...

So maybe it's the music.
Those who have not found hi-fi worthy of their investment, probably don't deem the music they listen to as worth the effort to enjoy beyond the its current delivery, be that radio, TV or MP3 player.

Also the popular concerts I've been to lately didn't inspire me to get any closer to the music and they usually sound much worse than the CD.  My experience has been the opposite for live classical, jazz etc... live performances.

Right now, I'm listening to Aerial by Kate Bush
I bet if I went outside right now and asked 10 people who Kate Bush was (and have you heard about her latest CD.) 8 out of 10 people wouldn't know who I was talking about or whether she even released a newer CD (two years ago).

[michaelavorgna]

I'm not sure I'd look to music choice as the culprit. I don't mean to be argumentative just interested

I don't think there's a direct correlation to be made between music appreciation and interest in hi-fi. If there was, every professional musician would necessarily be an audiophile. And my experience says this is not the case by a long shot. I also know about some serious record collectors (6 figure investment guys) who own older non-audiophile stereos. And then there's a friend who spends most of his money on music, writes music reviews and owns old Radio Shack speakers and a portable CD player.

Perhaps if we want to convert more music lovers into hi-fi owners, we need to make the correlation argument more convincing. More appealing. Again - what is it about owning a hi-fi that adds to our appreciation of music ? Whatever music we choose to listen to.

Cheers.

[WEEZ]

michaelavorgna,

You are quite accurate in that many professional musicians and many music lovers are not audiophiles. The point is, why aren't they?

(at the same time, there are many audiophiles that don't know sh*t about music, either... )

WEEZ

[eric the red]

michaelavorgna,
You are quite accurate in that many professional musicians and many music lovers are not audiophiles. The point is, why aren't they?
WEEZ

A lot of professional musicians don't make a ton of money to spend on gear is one guess. Another guess is maybe it's because they are surrounded by the real thing every day and think it's kind of silly to try and recreate that at home. Another is that they are more interested in creating the music than trying to recreate it. There are however professional athletes like Krell guy Mike Piazza who are audiophiles....