LS-6 and OB-7 speaker comparison...

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Danny Richie

LS-6 and OB-7 speaker comparison...
« on: 1 Dec 2006, 07:27 pm »
Okay guys I've had a pretty good handful of people ask me about how these compare. So, last night a spent a couple of hours with them really giving them a listen with different types of music, and formed a few opinions.

The picture below was just for the sake of getting a picture of them next to each other. When listening to each pair they were placed in optimal positions and the unused pair was pulled away.



The LS-6's are just prototypes. The baffles were made a little to wide. There was too much real estate to the woofer side of the baffle, but they were fine for testing purposes. The production units look a lot better and have a full wrap of veneer.

Surprisingly they sound more alike than one would think. There were back and forth aspects that favored one over the other and clearly there is no one "best". It really depends a lot on the room size, and what a person is willing to accept as a plus or a negative as to which speaker one might favor over the other.

I'll try to break this down into separate aspects.

Bass response: I'd have to give the edge here to the LS-6's, but this comes with a footnote. Keep in mind that my room is 17" by 23" and has 9' ceilings. It is also well treated.

Drum tracks like the Chinese percussion from the Burmester 3 CD, or Drum solo's really make the LS-6's shine. The extremely low distortion and low frequency extension really take covering this type of music to another level. Hard drum hits are made with good output levels with a minimum amount of cone movement. With the woofers hardly having to move, they settle back into a resting spot very quickly with no stored energy or inertia forcing a long decay time. The hit of the drum sounds more real than any other speaker I have listened to. It's amazing how many different aspects there are to it and how most speakers blend these things together. There is the sound of the initial hit of the mallet (or stick), then the sound of the skin of the drum and the resonation of the surface. Then there is its decay. Most speakers reproduce the hit but the decay of the drum gets lost in the decay of the woofer trying to recover from the hit. This aspect of the LS-6 is amazing.

There is a bass management system built into the LS-6 that will allow some flexibility in tuning the speaker to a particular room. Changing the resistance value can add or take away bottom end centered in the 70 to 100Hz range. This will allow them to be used in a room that might otherwise be overloaded. Still I wouldn't recommend them for small bedroom sized rooms. Recommended listening distance from them is 9 to 10 feet or more. You can get away with an 8 foot distance or less but you are starting to get to far into the near field.

With the OB-7 there is considerably more flexibility to the bottom end. With the four M-130's in a sealed box there is a more gradual roll off that starts higher up in their range. They are -3db near 80Hz. The rest of the bottom end is covered by the side loaded 12" sub. It is controlled by the rear mounted plate amp and can be varied in how high it plays and in output level. It works fine in large, medium, and even fairly small rooms. The bass is clean and sounds very good. At lower output levels it might even match the LS-6's. In a smaller room this might be a better solution in this regard.

Midrange or vocal region: This is a close call but I have to give the edge to the OB-7.

The LS-6 has really low distortion due to the multiple drivers covering that range and with a lower 1kHz crossover point to the woofers, the Neo's are more quickly picking up upper level harmonics with a little better speed and resolution than the OB-7. But, the OB-7 mid-bass woofers also have very low distortion due to minimized air pressure loading with the open baffle configuration. The lower ranges are also pulled away from the open baffle MTM center section and handed off to the four woofers. This relieves the mid-bass woofers form having to be in the compromising position of having to cover vocals and low bass at the same time. Then there is the added benefit of zero box coloration. This gives yet another advantage to the OB-7's. With the OB-7's vocals are a little more airy, relaxed, and inviting. I am a little more drawn to these speakers in this region.

Highs: The upper range clearly goes to the LS-6's.

The LS-6's have a much lower crossover point to the woofers (1kHz verses 1.8kHz) and it is really noticeable. The crack of a cymbal sounds more real in the LS-6. It has a much larger playing surface covering this area and much lower distortion. The hit of a cymbal has more feel and impact to it. The OB-7 sounds good and sounds right. In fact they sound very much the same, but the OB-7 lacks that impact. In the OB-7 most of the fundamentals of the hit of the cymbal is covered by the upper range of the woofers. It just isn't the same. The same goes for a piano. The piano sounds more real and more life like through the LS-6.

Imaging: This one is nearly too close to call. Each is good but different. It could easily be swayed by a comparison in a different room. In my room I give the edge to the LS-6.

Both image big and present a large realistic sound stage. The OB-7 is a little more airy as if there is a soft cushion of space between instruments and singers. All is well placed and allows varying degrees of depth. The LS-6 is a little more pin point. There is still a sense of space between everything but it is more defined. There is varying degrees of depth and image height as well. Some things are low or up front while other things are deeper or higher in the sound stage. The LS-6's seamed to be a little less finicky about placement too. I could give them a wider spread and or change the tow in with less effect on the sound stage. It was good regardless of where they were (in my well treated room).

Transparency: This edge goes to the OB-7.

The OB-7 had a more open sound to it that makes you look at the speaker and then the focus point of the music and swear that there isn't anything coming from the speaker itself. The LS-6 did this pretty well too and a lot better than most speakers, but not quite like the OB-7. A smaller baffle width of the OB-7 might also be contributing to this aspect as surface reflections are minimal.

Dynamics: Big edge here to the LS-6's. In fact this part is pretty clear cut.

If you like big dynamics and realistic playback levels then this speaker is for you. While the OB-7 is quite good in this regard, the LS-6 takes it to the next level. They will breeze through anything you can through at them. High output levels, no problem. Want to feel like your third row at a Metallic Concert? No problem.

Fun to listen to factor: LS-6 wins here too. It really makes you want to turn up the music and get crazy with it. Big grins all around here. I can't wait to hear what it does with the next piece of music....

WAF, (The acceptance of the significant other): This has to go clearly to the OB-7. It is less imposing. The baffle width is only 8" wide.

Value: That is debatable.

If I were to pick a personal favorite it might have to be the LS-6, but it is more expensive too. Crunching the numbers on the kit, the parts total came to $1,950. for the complete kit. That's with all Sonicaps. Alpha Core foil inductors, etc. The bass management system tag it slightly but is a must. Also keep in mind that the cost of the 16 flared ports from PSP are $128. It adds up.

The OB-7 kit is $1,150. plus whatever you might spend on sub-woofer plate amps.

More later, on this. If there is a certain aspect that I didn't touch on that you want to know more about then please ask.
« Last Edit: 2 Sep 2008, 09:31 pm by Danny »

gprro

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Re: LS-6 and OB-7 speaker comparison...
« Reply #1 on: 1 Dec 2006, 07:44 pm »
with image size, is there much of a difference? I've heard line arrays can sometimes make small instruments or close miked vocals sound really big, too big. Like a 10 foot flute or an 8 food head. Is the tweeter line weighted at all towards the middle drivers in the line?

Daygloworange

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Re: LS-6 and OB-7 speaker comparison...
« Reply #2 on: 1 Dec 2006, 07:53 pm »
I'll chime in here. In the OB 5, the vocal sounds very life like. It sounds like the singer is standing between the speakers and singing into a mic. The speakers sound like they are there only for musical support. No they don't exagerate the size of the vocal at all. It is very well defined in size and seems to have it's own soundstage. (either up front, or a little more laid back, depending on the production).  The center image in the vocal region is very, very well defined, and of immense resolution.

It actually takes a little getting used to.

Cheers

Danny Richie

Re: LS-6 and OB-7 speaker comparison...
« Reply #3 on: 1 Dec 2006, 08:19 pm »
Quote
with image size, is there much of a difference? I've heard line arrays can sometimes make small instruments or close miked vocals sound really big, too big. Like a 10 foot flute or an 8 food head.

Nothing is too large. Image wise, everything with the LS-6 is just as Daygloworange described the OB-5's above this post.

Quote
Is the tweeter line weighted at all towards the middle drivers in the line?

It is not a tapered array.

Rocket_Ronny

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Re: LS-6 and OB-7 speaker comparison...
« Reply #4 on: 1 Dec 2006, 11:30 pm »
Thanks Danny for the comparison.

At what volume in the listening chair would you say you comparing the two?

I would think in the 90+ db range the LS6 starts to really pull ahead in it's strengths.

I know a lot of people listen a bit more quietly, say 80-85 db, in the listening chair. At that volume I expect the differences to be much less, correct?

What about speaker efficiency, and amp power? Thems theres, a whole lot driver area to move, pilgram. I know reading the VMPS forum how those guys love 200 watts to come alive. Don't all those planer drivers love current?

WAF of the LS6 is marginal at best, unless locked away in a separate listening room. Much better WAF on a OB 7, but here is where the OB 5 rules. Especially a backless one.

My wife thought they looked funny as I was building them. Now, she is quite impressed, and actually likes the looks. The glossy black contrasted with the light wood really makes the whole speaker look rich in color.

I get a kick just sitting there looking at them. Makes me think I am looking at a $5,000.00 speaker.

Rocket_still a wee bit of LS6 bug lurking deep within_Ronny

vegas

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Re: LS-6 and OB-7 speaker comparison...
« Reply #5 on: 2 Dec 2006, 07:26 am »

I think Danny has spoken. At realistic playback levels, if Danny had to pick a winner, he would choose the LS6.  And that was over the OB7 which is more speaker than the OB5.

Ronny, your speakers are purdy, but your comment that the area of WAF is where the OB5 RULES would suggest we might be even better served by all going out and buying Bose Wave radios.   :lol:

While you can enjoy music at 80-85 decibels, it genuinely moves you above 90.

And if OB is to your taste in midrange, you should be trying OB bass done well.  It brings the same quality to the bass you are hearing in your midrange. An effortlessness and articulation that you do not get with any boxed bass driver system.   

Danny I'm interested in the efficiency of the LS6 please.

Vegas.

arthurs

Re: LS-6 and OB-7 speaker comparison...
« Reply #6 on: 2 Dec 2006, 02:12 pm »
Vegas, I believe Danny told me the 6's sensitivity is about 90db. 

Okay, not to get too far ahead of myself but I thought I'd jump in here.  Danny brought the LS-6 down to my place last night and I have spent the last 12 hours with them.  I'll write a more comprehensive set of thoughts about them later this week, but if you guys have some questions I'll do my best to try and tell you what I'm hearing as it relates to what you're wondering.

System is:
Resolution Audio Opus21 (reference mods by Great Northern Sound)
VAC renaissance Signature MKII pre
Moscode 401HR amp
Electra IC's
Shunyata Lyra speaker cables

To one question from this thread, images are not enlarged or exaggerated, they are very lifelike.  These are some bad ass speakers.

NealH

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Re: LS-6 and OB-7 speaker comparison...
« Reply #7 on: 2 Dec 2006, 02:20 pm »
1.  Does the soundstage depth on these speakers range from in your lap to well behind the speaker plane or, is it relegated to the speaker plant to well behind it?

2.  Where did you find the cutoff point was on listening distance for best integration, about 9' as Danny found?  Did you notice any comb effects?

3.  How much do they weigh?

arthurs

Re: LS-6 and OB-7 speaker comparison...
« Reply #8 on: 2 Dec 2006, 02:34 pm »
1.  Does the soundstage depth on these speakers range from in your lap to well behind the speaker plane or, is it relegated to the speaker plant to well behind it?

2.  Where did you find the cutoff point was on listening distance for best integration, about 9' as Danny found?  Did you notice any comb effects?

3.  How much do they weigh?

The soundstage is very deep and wide, these things literally disappear.  I haven't found it in my lap, but on recordings I know well that have soundstage effects or placement it is exceptional, these do staging and imaging stunningly well.

I've found about 12' is best in my room, which is a bit larger room than Danny's, no comb effects here.  I have them about 7' from the back wall and 5' from the side walls. 

Not sure on the exact weight, but they were a handful for Danny and I to get up the stairs.... :duh:  maybe 125lbs or thereabouts?

vegas

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Re: LS-6 and OB-7 speaker comparison...
« Reply #9 on: 2 Dec 2006, 05:19 pm »
Vegas, I believe Danny told me the 6's sensitivity is about 90db. 

Okay, not to get too far ahead of myself but I thought I'd jump in here.  Danny brought the LS-6 down to my place last night and I have spent the last 12 hours with them.  I'll write a more comprehensive set of thoughts about them later this week, but if you guys have some questions I'll do my best to try and tell you what I'm hearing as it relates to what you're wondering.

System is:
Resolution Audio Opus21 (reference mods by Great Northern Sound)
VAC renaissance Signature MKII pre
Moscode 401HR amp
Electra IC's
Shunyata Lyra speaker cables

To one question from this thread, images are not enlarged or exaggerated, they are very lifelike.  These are some bad ass speakers.

Thats a very nice system. I've heard the  Resolution Audio predescessor to the opus21 and it is deadly nice. It always used to get compared as a strong and quite equal competitor to the Aero Capitole (serious expensive) with its liquidity and ease of presentation and lack of digital artifacts. Were the mods expensive / of good sonic value?

If I recall you have to be careful about taking the efficiency ratings at face value, cause with a line source the efficiency ratings deteriorate much less as you get further from the speaker than conventional speakers. Danny can you remind me of this formula and what that actually means the LS can do in real world vs conventional speakers, and proper amplification paramaters to drive it well.

Vegas.

Danny Richie

Re: LS-6 and OB-7 speaker comparison...
« Reply #10 on: 2 Dec 2006, 05:27 pm »
Quote
Danny can you remind me of this formula and what that actually means the LS can do in real world vs conventional speakers, and proper amplification paramaters to drive it well.

A line source looses 3db of output with doubling of distance while a point source looses 6db of output per doubling of distance.

The OB-7 measures 1db louder at 1 watt/1 meter, but at listening distance the LS-6 is clearly the louder of the two.

Rocket_Ronny

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Re: LS-6 and OB-7 speaker comparison...
« Reply #11 on: 2 Dec 2006, 11:47 pm »
Well, all this gets my juices running.

I dream of a bi-amped, digitally crossovered, mini LS. Like to the tune of 5 Neo 8's.

So I have some LS newbie questions.

1. Why is it that one does not get comb filtering of the highs with a line source if all the Neo 8's are running from 1 khz up to 20 K? Same things goes for the 3' ribbons in the small Apogees, or 4' tall pannels in the Acoustats. It must be distance from speaker to Line height? When I place two full ranges on top of each other havoc strikes with big holes in the higher frequencies.

2. How important is time alignment. Must not be very or else you would see every tall speaker with a big curve on the front to align the drivers.

3. I thought of a smaller LS for WAF, say 54" tall. Then to offset vertical beaming, slanting the front baffle back say 2-3", thus firing up the highs into the room. I found I could put a healthy dose of back slant on the Apogees and Acoustats without any problems, except slightly lowering the sound stage height. Danny, thumbs up or down.

4. Do you wire all Neo 8's in parrellel, or in some sort of series? Silly question I know.

5. What is the cost and size of the LS woofs?

6. Does a person add a resistor to the speakers due to the low impedance of so many drivers?

Thanks.

Rocket_Ronny

P.S. I absolutely love my OB 5s. The shear clarity is simply fantastic.
« Last Edit: 3 Dec 2006, 01:11 am by Rocket_Ronny »

phoenix_rising

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Re: LS-6 and OB-7 speaker comparison...
« Reply #12 on: 3 Dec 2006, 12:28 am »
Hi Danny,

In one post I saw of yours you mentioned that you were going to do an open baffle line source that went down to the teens, is this still on the boards and if so when is it likely to appear as a kit. I am a fan of line source but love the sound of the open bafle speakers. The OB series is very tempting but they do not have the dynamics I want for home theater work.

I also had a question on the LS-9, assuming three LS-9's for LRC would they have enough bass capability to be fed the subwoofer signal as well (assuming it was distributed between all three), they would have a lot cleaner bass than any sub.

Brucemck

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Re: LS-6 and OB-7 speaker comparison...
« Reply #13 on: 3 Dec 2006, 12:48 am »
Rocket Ronnie: following is a terrific discussion forum r.e. Line Arrays:

http://audioroundtable.com/ArraySpeakers/

If you search there's a pretty good white paper written by Jim Griffin that explains the applied physics

Rocket_Ronny

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Re: LS-6 and OB-7 speaker comparison...
« Reply #14 on: 3 Dec 2006, 01:10 am »

Thanks Bruce.

Rocket_Ronny

Danny Richie

Re: LS-6 and OB-7 speaker comparison...
« Reply #15 on: 3 Dec 2006, 01:18 am »
Quote
Why is it that one does not get comb filtering of the highs with a line source if all the Neo 8's are running from 1 khz up to 20 K? Same things goes for the 3' ribbons in the small Apogees, or 4' tall pannels in the Acoustats. It must be distance from speaker to Line height? When I place two full ranges on top of each other havoc strikes with big holes in the higher frequencies.


There is comb filtering effects going on all up and down the line. It's just a matter of what distance you are away from them as to if it is in an audible range or not. It's all distance and frequency dependant.

Put a sub on either side of you 14 feet away and they'll cancel each out at 40Hz right where you are sitting.

The playing surface of the tweeters are a little less than 1" apart. Right in the middle of them they are cancelling each other out at 27kHz.

But there are also comb filtering effects that are taking place from the top of the line to the bottom of the line. You are further away from the tips of the array than you are from the middle of the array. The same goes for a single long driver too.

It's all about distances. Keeping the drivers right on top of each other helps a lot. With woofers it's about distances from acoustic centers (center of the voice coil to center of the voice coil). With a ribbon or planar magnetic driver the whole surface is the voice coil (so to speak) so we typically look at playing surface to playing surface.

Quote
2. How important is time alignment. Must not be very or else you would see every tall speaker with a big curve on the front to align the drivers.

All of the woofers and all of the tweeters are wired together and play together so there is no time alignment elements for the group of woofers or the group of tweeters. There is however a time alignment element between the woofers and the tweeters. It can also be adjusted by towing the speakers in or out.

Quote
3. I thought of a smaller LS for WAF, say 54" tall. Then to offset vertical beaming, slanting the front baffle back say 2-3", thus firing up the highs into the room. I found I could put a healthy dose of back slant on the Apogees and Acoustats without any problems, except slightly lowering the sound stage height. Danny, thumbs up or down.

What you're really doing there is shifting the ear (listening height) from the center of the array to closer to the bottom of the array. Either way as you get near the ends of the array the highs will start dropping off. You don't want your listening height to be too near the top or the bottom.

Quote
4. Do you wire all Neo 8's in parrellel, or in some sort of series? Silly question I know.


If they were all in parallel then they would be about a 1.16 ohm load. They are in a series parallel grouping.

Quote
5. What is the cost and size of the LS woofs?

They are a 6.5" woofer that if I sold them separately would be $49 each.



Quote
In one post I saw of yours you mentioned that you were going to do an open baffle line source that went down to the teens, is this still on the boards and if so when is it likely to appear as a kit.

It will happen. I will finish the LS-6 and 9's first then have a higher Qts version made of this woofer to use in the open baffle version. It might take a while. It really depends on driver development and production times. I will shoot for this time next year to leave some cushion, but it could come about sooner. It would be an expensive kit. I don't know if there is a market for kits that high but we'll see.

Quote
I also had a question on the LS-9, assuming three LS-9's for LRC would they have enough bass capability to be fed the subwoofer signal as well (assuming it was distributed between all three), they would have a lot cleaner bass than any sub.

They hit a flat 20Hz in my room getting a full range signal. And yes the low bass was very clean and fast.

WallyWest

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Re: LS-6 and OB-7 speaker comparison...
« Reply #16 on: 3 Dec 2006, 01:42 am »
Quote
They hit a flat 20Hz in my room getting a full range signal. And yes the low bass was very clean and fast.

Um, wow. 

I really hate you.  Every time I decide on a kit to build you come out with something new and interesting.  Open baffles, line arrays, now open baffle line arrays!!  ARRRGGHHHH!!!!!

mpauly

Re: LS-6 and OB-7 speaker comparison...
« Reply #17 on: 3 Dec 2006, 02:01 am »
Quote
Every time I decide on a kit to build you come out with something new and interesting.  Open baffles, line arrays, now open baffle line arrays!!  ARRRGGHHHH!!!!!

This is so true.  I was going to build the AV3, then started seeing the AV4 so I held off, then the OB7 came around, then I almost got in on the Mini (i know it's AV123, but sorta family), now the LS.  Thing seem to be getting better and better, though also bigger and bigger!!! 

I decided to pick up a used pair of X-ls monitors to mess with while I make a decision on a set of mains that will have some WAF (OB 5 and sub possible), or finally get around to finishing the basement.

Interesting to watch and read all this though.

Michael

phoenix_rising

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Re: LS-6 and OB-7 speaker comparison...
« Reply #18 on: 4 Dec 2006, 01:00 am »
Thanks for the reply Danny. I think you will be surprised at how many kits you sell of an OB line source as I think it would be audio nirvana.

I am now considering buying some OB-5's in the new year to tide me over until the full OB line is available.

EProvenzano

Re: LS-6 and OB-7 speaker comparison...
« Reply #19 on: 4 Dec 2006, 02:35 am »
Danny,

What is the composition of the woofer cone?
Thanks!