LS-6 and OB-7 speaker comparison...

Daygloworange · « **Reply #40 on:** 6 Dec 2006, 02:43 am »

The AV/3's have very good bass. Very tight and clean. In smaller spaces, with room gain, they have enough bass to cover most popular music. ( I have my sub crossed over at 40 hz) With the sub on, there is very little going on down there. I switch it on and off all the time, just goofing around to see what the effect is. Sade for example, barely registers in the sub, Seal on the other hand does. But turn off the sub, and it doesn't all of a sudden become unweighted. It's only working one octave, 20 to 40 Hz.

I'm a studio guy, so, I don't like anything hyped up. I like clean, articulate, and well defined with good timbre.

If you like the AV/3's now, just wait a few weeks. I found that the tweeter sounded good, but not in proportion to the woofers in loudness. Then it changed, and came out more in proportion. Not higher, just in propotion. You can listen to them at spirited levels all day long, and they never become fatiguing. And I'm a guy who can get pretty easily annoyed with sonics. How much do I like them? Mine are on loan, but they will become my main studio monitors. Mid range is very good. Soundstage is like this. Some speakers are laid back, that is to say, everything is laid back, and in a deep soundstage. I can do this same effect by re-equalizing a 2 track recording with some minimal eq changes, mainly in the low mids. With the AV/3's, deep ambient sounds are very large, but if a vocal or featured instrument is recorded with less early reflections due to proximity, it appears that way in the soundstage ( or spacial image) Very good localization.

On a 1-10 scale.....man that's tough.

I'll say this again, if someone where to ask me what I don't like about the AV/3's? My answer would be, nothing. Period. At first, before break in, I spoke to Danny, and he said we could tip the tweeter up with a simple resister swap. I said I'd wait a bit, and I'm glad I did. No need. But it's still nice to know you could, if that's your thing.

The OB 5 is very open and effortless in the mid range. It's hard to compare. It's not a derogatory remark on the AV/3 at all. The OB 5's mid range is very revealing. The Neo3 is fast . Again, not that the dome tweeter is slow. It's just fast and a bit(sic) more dynamic. They are a little more (sic)unforgiving in the vocal region. But you can't blame that on the speaker. On good recordings, the vocal is absolutely holographic. Very precise mid range. Lows are good, and with plenty of extension. The OB is a true 3 way. Paired with the active PR sub, it's astounding.

Let the AV/3's break in well, get accustomed to what they sound like on the music you like. If you really like the AV's, you'll be very, very impressed with the OB's.

I will have the opportunity to power them with some well respected tube amps in the next little bit ( older Dodd mono blocs, and McAllister Audio mono blocs ) and I will post some feedback when I do.

I hope that helps you out. I honestly can't put it on a 1-10 scale. I love both these speakers.

Cheers

Rocket_Ronny · « **Reply #41 on:** 6 Dec 2006, 04:04 am »

Day:

I am impressed with your OB 7 idea.

I kind of reasoned the same after building mine. I thought, man, I could fit two woofs on the top of the bass cab firing up.

Danny. How would that work? The farthest back woof may very well be too far back.

Either way though. I really like the bass of the OB 5 as is, and I think I would prefer having the two bass woofs go to 45 hz than to have 4 sealed woofs rolling off at 80 hz, as they sound better than my Sunfire sub in that region. Below 40 hz I like the Sunfire.

Rocket_Ronny

Daygloworange · « **Reply #42 on:** 6 Dec 2006, 04:35 am »

Quote

Either way though. I really like the bass of the OB 5 as is, and I think I would prefer having the two bass woofs go to 45 hz than to have 4 sealed woofs rolling off at 80 hz, as they sound better than my Sunfire sub in that region. Below 40 hz I like the Sunfire.

I like the sound of sealed woofers. The added 2 woofers will of course lower distortion.

I'm not sure why he has them rolling off at 80hz. I forgot to ask him. But probably for a good reason.

My plate amp is adjustable on the PR sub so it's no big deal. But I'm curious as to the 80Hz thing. Maybe it's the way they roll off .

Danny, can you answer that for us?

Cheers

ewarren · « **Reply #43 on:** 6 Dec 2006, 05:41 am »

Day:

Danny and I had this conversation this past weekend. There is really no need to go any lower than 80Hz, because the 12" driver takes over from there. Since it's in the same cabinet it can be crossed over a little higher. If the sub is in a separate box it would need to be crossed over a lot lower so you wouldn't be able to tell where the sound was coming from. If using separate subs, you really need two placed right next the speakers to still be able to cross over so high. Danny, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

Daygloworange · « **Reply #44 on:** 6 Dec 2006, 05:59 am »

Quote

If the sub is in a separate box it would need to be crossed over a lot lower so you wouldn't be able to tell where the sound was coming from.

I don't really know if you could localize that well at 80hz. I have a sinewave generator in my studio. I might give that a try. Try bursts while panning them around and see if I can localize it.

Cheers

ryno · « **Reply #45 on:** 6 Dec 2006, 03:30 pm »

Day
How are you planning to place the four bass drivers, in a row under the OB section?
About the 80hz, if I remember right, a properly sized sealed box for this driver gives a natural f3 of about 80hz.
Danny, for the OB7, do you also include a passive high pass for the midbass drivers or just a low pass?
Thanks Ryan

Danny Richie · « **Reply #46 on:** 6 Dec 2006, 05:15 pm »

Quote

if I remember right, a properly sized sealed box for this driver gives a natural f3 of about 80hz.

Yep, that's about what you get with zero room gain. With room gain that might be in the mid to low 70's.

Quote

Danny, for the OB7, do you also include a passive high pass for the midbass drivers or just a low pass?

The four M-130's have a low pass filter only.

Daygloworange · « **Reply #47 on:** 7 Dec 2006, 02:33 am »

Danny,

As far as what I'm planning on doing as an OB 7 hybrid, would you recommend I cross the sub at 70 or 80hz then, in order to smoothly transition from the 4 woofers to the sub? What's the roll off like on the woofer section of the OB 7?

Also, are you able to localize at 80 hz?

Cheers

Daygloworange · « **Reply #48 on:** 7 Dec 2006, 02:35 am »

Quote

Day
How are you planning to place the four bass drivers, in a row under the OB section?

Yes, exactly. The sub will be the PR sub as a satellite, powered by the Apex Sr. plate amp.

Cheers

Loftprojection · « **Reply #49 on:** 7 Dec 2006, 02:42 am »

Quote from: Daygloworange on 6 Dec 2006, 02:43 am

...I hope that helps you out. I honestly can't put it on a 1-10 scale. I love both these speakers.

Hey thanks much, it does. I'm not intending to upgrade to the OB, for now

, I mean it took me a year to build the AV/3 (with center and rear) so I want to enjoy them for a while. I was mostly interested in knowing about the sub and it looks like it is not adding much on most music recording. I might build it anyway just for fun, haha!

Danny Richie · « **Reply #50 on:** 7 Dec 2006, 02:48 am »

Quote

As far as what I'm planning on doing as an OB 7 hybrid, would you recommend I cross the sub at 70 or 80hz then, in order to smoothly transition from the 4 woofers to the sub? What's the roll off like on the woofer section of the OB 7?

Keep in mind that you really want to cross them at a point where they are about 6db down. I think I have my plate amp set on 45 or 50Hz.

The roll off of the sealed box woofers is second order. So is the crossover on my sub amp.

Daygloworange · « **Reply #51 on:** 7 Dec 2006, 03:18 am »

Loftprojection,

You're not hurting for speakers. I built the sub out of curiosity as well. Want to know what it sounds like?

I built it, and got the Apex Sr. Plate amp that's linked off the GR website, I had to do the resistor swap myself that they recommend to lower the corner frequency, down to 12 hz I believe. When I finally built it, I plugged it in. My preamp has outputs for a sub, so I don't have to do any funny business in hooking them up.

When I was goofing with them and setting them up, I grabbed every CD I knew had lots of low end and ran it through my system. I was playing with the polarity and crossover point and cranking it experimenting. After a while, I started to feel funny, thought it might have been too long since I ate or something. Then my brother ( who is a semi-pro drummer ) came by to see what I was doing. So we were jammin' stuff with the sub at spirited levels. Not obscene, just quite spirited. After about a half hour, he just gets up and says he's going to leave. I said why don't you hang out and let's goof around and optimise the sub.

He says he's not feeling so well, says he's just not feeling right, kind of nauseous and sea sick like. He was describing the same symptoms as I was. I swear it must have been the sub. When you're running with it at a decent SPL and then suddenly mute it on a passage that has low bass, you hear the resonance decay. It feels like it shakes the foundation. You can see surfaces ripple, like mirrored closet doors, large glass surfaces, and you can hear walls actually ring.

I don't know how the home theater guys tolerate it. I've seen guys who run quad sub setups. It's beyond me.

If you decide to build it, you won't regret it, it's nice to have. But I don't always run it. If your in the mood to totally immerse your self then yeah, it's fantastic. But if you just want to listen a little more casually, then I won't run it. If you have other people in the house to consider, then you will have to run the level lower, it carries very far at those frequencies.

At a recent get together we ran a test reference CD from a member of our local club. It was cool. It was a classical music track that had this very, very, very low sustained note swell in about 3 seconds in from the beginning of the track. It starts practically at zero then comes in a wee, wee bit. Everybody felt ( not heard it). Everybody was looking at each other with a look , like what is that????

The excursion on the woofer looked almost like slow motion. And with huge excursion. It was funny, everybody was amazed. We kept repeating the first few bars of the track just to feel (listen)to it again. The most amazing thing was that it was musical . It didn't feel like a test tone. It had modulation. A very unique experience.

Cheers

Daygloworange · « **Reply #52 on:** 7 Dec 2006, 03:25 am »

Quote

Keep in mind that you really want to cross them at a point where they are about 6db down. I think I have my plate amp set on 45 or 50Hz.

The roll off of the sealed box woofers is second order. So is the crossover on my sub amp.

I think the Apex Sr. has a 12db per octave roll off on the cross over, So you think 40 -50hz is cool with that amp?

Cheers

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #53 on:** 7 Dec 2006, 07:45 am »

Not to put words in anyone's mouths but yup, 12db/oct is second order. And I think Danny told me before that 50hz or so is adequate.

texasphile · « **Reply #54 on:** 7 Dec 2006, 09:42 am »

Quote from: Daygloworange on 7 Dec 2006, 03:18 am

You're not hurting for speakers. I built the sub out of curiosity as well. Want to know what it sounds like?

I built it, and got the Apex Sr. Plate amp that's linked off the GR website, I had to do the resistor swap myself that they recommend to lower the corner frequency, down to 12 Hz I believe...

...When I was goofing with them and setting them up, I grabbed every CD I knew had lots of low end and ran it through my system. I was playing with the polarity and crossover point and cranking it experimenting. After a while, I started to feel funny, thought it might have been too long since I ate or something. Then my brother ( who is a semi-pro drummer ) came by to see what I was doing. So we were jammin' stuff with the sub at spirited levels. Not obscene, just quite spirited. After about a half hour, he just gets up and says he's going to leave. I said why don't you hang out and let's goof around and optimise the sub.

He says he's not feeling so well, says he's just not feeling right, kind of nauseous and sea sick like. He was describing the same symptoms as I was. I swear it must have been the sub.

The excursion on the woofer looked almost like slow motion. And with huge excursion. It was funny, everybody was amazed. We kept repeating the first few bars of the track just to feel (listen)to it again. The most amazing thing was that it was musical . It didn't feel like a test tone. It had modulation. A very unique experience.

http://www.lowertheboom.org/trice/infrasound.htm

Here a "cutesy" yet informative webpage about infrasonics (it includes links to expanded, more scholarly information). I remember studying it for my bachelor's degree some 20 or so years ago. Nausea is a common side effect. I was in a VW Beetle, the "real" one from the late 1960s, in which the owner had installed way too much sound equipment. Side Note: Beetles are easy to break into. Just pop the trunk (bonnet) on the Front of the car and pull off the cardboard dash protector. Voila!, instant access to the back of the dash! Anyway, he cranked up some racket that was supposed to be music and then the low notes started. I lasted about two minutes, before I bolted from the car and puked my guts up. His SPL was measured at 118 dB inside the car. He didn't dare turn up the volume when the windows were rolled up.

I hope this helps explain the phenomenon,

Chris

Daygloworange · « **Reply #55 on:** 7 Dec 2006, 04:23 pm »

texasphile,

I can attest to the symptoms. And yes, disorientation is one I forgot to mention. There is also a sense of befuddlement. I think it's your body knowing something is wrong and trying to send you into an analysis mode to try and figure out the anomaly. It was weird. It's not something I'd do for kicks.

Cheers

Brucemck · « **Reply #56 on:** 8 Dec 2006, 03:55 pm »

Danny, what sort of amplification would the 6's or 9's require in a well treated 3800 cubic feet room?

I'd like to try my hand at some single ended triodes, but don't know if they'd have the "oomph" to really drive the line arrays? (Even if not SETs, I'd take the opportunity to switch from solid state to tubes.)I occasionally listen loud, but not Metallica concert loud.

Would the answer change markedly if I offloaded the lowest bass, say below 40hz, to a pair of subs? I've got two 15" subs that would be adjacent to the arrays, and terrific built in PEQ, so offloading the very low end wouldn't be all that hard to do if opened up my options on amplification.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #57 on:** 8 Dec 2006, 04:25 pm »

That room is just slightly larger than my own.

I'd recommend a good 100 to 150 watts of power to really do you right.

I'm a tube amp guy myself. I'd look into a pair of the new Dodd Audio 120 watt mono's. That new Moscode hybrid sounded pretty damn good too. One of the new VAC tube amps that I heard recently sounded pretty good too.

Those recommendations wouldn't change if you were using a sub or two.

Rocket_Ronny · « **Reply #58 on:** 8 Dec 2006, 04:41 pm »

Bruce:

I would say 30-50 watts min. to get them up and going.

I am using the 22 watt McAlister SE 44 SET amp on the 91 db OB 5s and run out of steam at times. So I am planning on passively bi-amping. I plan to keep the SE 44 on the top and am looking at the McAlister push/pull 150 on the bass. Both have the same input sensitivity so it should work if I use the existing OB crossover. Or, one could just get his 120 mono's, which I sure have. Single ended clarity with big time muscle. Yum, yum.

I would not run my mains through a sub crossover. Kind of ruins things, a lot, unless a world class crossover is used.

Rocket_Ronny

Brucemck · « **Reply #59 on:** 8 Dec 2006, 06:26 pm »

The crossover to subs is a bear to get right, but when right works really well.

In my case I have a Meridian 861 performing crossover duties, use the extensive PEQ in the 861 to get the bass right on each individual speaker, and had Jeff at AccuCal out with his extensive measurement equipment to get the physical locations and time alignment dialed in for each of my three fronts and three subs.. Prior to all that: muddy bass. After all that: seamless and deep low end.

My other issue is the adverse phase cancellation on my primarty length and width modes. I use three subs asymmetrically placed, that in combination yield flat high quality bass. If I run the LS6s/9s down into those modes I'll be back into bass wave cancellation hell.