DAC 60 new thread

Danny Richie · « **Reply #120 on:** 9 Mar 2006, 02:56 pm »

nhtran,

The factory responded this morning. "We will send a new pcb to you for replacemnet." I guess they are sending it here. When I get it, I'll forward it down to you.

Bequerel · « **Reply #121 on:** 9 Mar 2006, 02:59 pm »

Quote from: nhtran

Bequerel,

Just a few questions about your mods...What was the value of the output coupling caps?

The original was 2.7uF. New value is 3.3uF with a 0.47uF bypass, but the values are not critical. I suppose that anything between 2.7uF and 4uF would work fine.

nhtran · « **Reply #122 on:** 9 Mar 2006, 03:11 pm »

Quote from: Danny

nhtran,

The factory responded this morning. "We will send a new pcb to you for replacemnet." I guess they are sending it here. When I get it, I'll forward it down to you.

Thanks Danny. This may actually be a blessing in disquise. I'll probably upgrade the caps on the new board before I install it.

NT

tigzstudio · « **Reply #123 on:** 9 Mar 2006, 03:32 pm »

anybody with more impressions of the "Sonic Craft Modded" version? Or are all these impressions in this thread mostly for the stock DAC 60?

dallasstarsfan · « **Reply #124 on:** 10 Mar 2006, 04:01 pm »

Quote from: tigzstudio

anybody with more impressions of the "Sonic Craft Modded" version? Or are all these impressions in this thread mostly for the stock DAC 60?

Order a DAC-60 (with Black faceplate) and the SonicCraft mods this morning. It will likely be a few weeks before I get it. I'll post my impressions after a good break-in and listen.

spacedghost · « **Reply #125 on:** 10 Mar 2006, 04:47 pm »

Order a DAC-60 (with Black faceplate) and the SonicCraft mods this morning. It will likely be a few weeks before I get it. I'll post my impressions after a good break-in and listen.[/quote]

I ordered mine about a week ago, with mods and black faceplate. I will also post my impressions. I don't currently have an external DAC but will be comparing it to the DAC's of my Onix XCD99.

Shaun

outlawrocketman · « **Reply #126 on:** 25 Apr 2006, 03:07 pm »

Hi all, just to weigh in...
I've had my modded DAC-60 for a couple of weeks now. Did A/B testing against the Benchmark DAC-1. Before that had no DAC. NJoe Tjoeb 4000 CD player, Pioneer 47AI DVD-A / SACD player, PS Audio GCC-250 integrated AMP, GR-research Diluceo mains with a GR-research custom Subwoofer.

Before the DAC I was using a total bithead to get the audio via USB from my computer to the sound system. Now I'm using TOSLINK from a Create X-FI sound board.

The DAC-60 is a great upgrade. Makes my computer-based sound worth listening to. Playing the 47AI through the DAC-60 is also sweet. Very rich sound, full range, detailed.

Next test is to try the 47AI against the Njoe Tjoeb to see if I still need the Njoe. Maybe tonight...

--Peter

Gizmo · « **Reply #127 on:** 25 Apr 2006, 07:21 pm »

Peter,

Does this mean that you prefer the modded Dac 60 to the DAC 1? Could you expand on the differences between the 2.

Thanks,

David

Loftprojection · « **Reply #128 on:** 25 Apr 2006, 09:55 pm »

Quote from: Gizmo

Peter,

Does this mean that you prefer the modded Dac 60 to the DAC 1? Could you expand on the differences between the 2.

Thanks,

David

Yes Peter, you have an interesting setup and we will appreciate your feedback. You could do DAC1 against the DAC60. Then versus a pure CDP. Then if your CDP has a digital out you could also test pure CDP versus CDP/DAC60 combination. Not only would we have a feel of how the DAC60 performs against another reputed DAC but also against a reputed CDP and how CDs perform against computer music. All that in a system that is "affordable" for us common people not like the tests performed by magazines...

Thanks in advance.

outlawrocketman · « **Reply #129 on:** 26 Apr 2006, 01:50 am »

Hi Gizmo,

Yes, to clarify, I'm using the modded DAC-60 (as provided by Danny, not modded by myself).

I found them both very enjoyable. I tend to just do "background" listening while letting components burn in, and I did that for both the 60 and the 1. I found both to provide very nice sound, as I would have expected from 2 very well reviewed and received products.

Then I did critical listening and the differences came forth rather quickly. They are still both great DACs. If I was buying a DAC for engineering (want perfectly accurate sound) I'd probably go with the DAC-1. That's what (as far as I can tell) it was designed for. Provides a very flat play back of the sound. Nothing emphasized, nothing removed. Very good resolution top to bottom.

The DAC-60 on the other hand seems to gently emphasize the right stuff. The vocals are a little forward, sweeter, beautiful. Likewise with lead guitar. Not overly "tubey" (I used to use a Antique Sound Labs tube amp to drive my system so I've experienced tubes before). Just a slight step up in overall enjoyment and presentation of the sound. Really it's the sound that I was hoping to get from this improvement. As an example, now I can tell the difference between Apple lossless and AAC 160-bit compression (which I used on most of the music I loaded onto my computer - I have 2300 albums, 31000 items currently loaded into itunes - that takes a lot of space compressed, forget about uncompressed!). Before the DAC-60 I couldn't tell the difference. (Sorry, didn't try the test with the DAC-1 once I decided to go with the DAC-60).

Hope that gives you a bit of a feel for the differences I experienced, in my system, between the two DACs.

Plus the modded DAC-60 is lower cost than the DAC-1.

--Peter

outlawrocketman · « **Reply #130 on:** 26 Apr 2006, 02:00 am »

Hi Loftprojection,

Hmm, I've been building my system up since I got serious about music a few years ago. My HT system is Onix Rocket 1000s driven my the Emotive with an Outlaw 7 channel amp, also with the Pioneer DV-47ai. That one evolved from using an Outlaw preamp, and also the Rocket 750s that I upgraded from. I still have a cambridge soundworks subwoofer (a remnant from my previous HT system) that I should upgrade at some point. Whole system sounds pretty good though.

Currently in my 2 channel I have the Pioneer using digital coax out feeding into my DAC-60, as well as the computing using the TOSLINK. I will do some more A/B testing and post the results here if folks are interested. So far I just explored the 2 DACS (actually 3 - my friend had a Forte' that he wasn't using that he loaned my way to compare). Next up is trying the tubed CDP wthout DAC-60 against Pioneer with DAC-60 to see if I can simplify my setup. I will try the computer against the CDPs but that's less interesting to me as I listen both ways. Also next is trying the Onix Ref-3s in my system (i'm hoping for an integrated sound from one unit not requiring a sub). I just tried a few other speakers at a stereo store in Boston and posted my feelings over at AV123. In summary most stuff around $3K is, um, not an upgrade from my current speakers.

I have been trying to build the best "affordable" system I could, so appreciate your interest in the same. I think it sounds quite good. Anyone in the Boston / Prov area is welcome to come have a listen give your opinion as well. Only down-side with my system is the Diluceos are no longer being sold by Danny so you'll need to find some other articulate, refined, detailed, and ballsy speaker!

Loftprojection · « **Reply #131 on:** 26 Apr 2006, 01:17 pm »

Quote from: outlawrocketman

...I will try the computer against the CDPs but that's less interesting to me as I listen both ways...

I have been trying to build the best "affordable" system I could, so appreciate your interest in the same...

Hey thanks Peter. Who knows, after this test you might endup that you don't want a CDP anymore. Personally I can't wait for the day I will throw out my CDP and only use a computer in the house linked to my three different sound systems. For now I still use a CDP (Arcam CD23T) in my critical listening system but I'm really tired of flipping CDs all the time. Once I'm done building my AV3-AV3s-AV1rs kit I will have time to complete the ripping of all my CDs over to the computer and try to find myself a DAC that will detrone my CDP!

Affordable is definitely the name of the game for me and Danny's stuff sure helps!

Gizmo · « **Reply #132 on:** 26 Apr 2006, 09:15 pm »

Peter,

Thanks for the feedback it is much appreciated.

David

outlawrocketman · « **Reply #133 on:** 28 Apr 2006, 01:33 am »

Hey Folks, did some more listening, and had a friend over with good ears to play along with my "which is better?" game.

Got some interesting results. As we both reached the same conclusions semi-independently, I'm pretty comfortable with the conclusions.

Testing the Njoe Tjoeb (with upgrades purchased with the CD player) directly into the GCC-250 vs. the Pioneer 47AI into the DAC-60 into the GCC-250. The Pioneer was a clear win. It made the Njoe sound too tubey in comparison, while the Pioneer / DAC-60 sounded slightly warm and oh-so pleasant. Not only that, this helped me find another problem. I was thinking that the bass was somewhat lacking in my system, even with the subwoofer. Turns out the Njoe rolls off the bass quite a bit (again, in comparison). The bass with the Pioneer / DAC-60 is solid and strong. Nice to find an overall better solution - the DAC-60.

Unfortunately, the DAC-60 is really showing the difference between the AAC 160-bit ripped CDs and the apple lossless ripped CDs. Unfortunate because now I find it hard to listen to the compressed. That's going to be a lot of re-ripping!

Oh, even with apple lossless, the Pioneer sounds better than the computer output. Not sure why, as both should be a pure digital bit pattern delivered to the DAC-60. Possibly because I'm using a 5m or so TOSLINK for the computer and going with a 1m siltech stockholm mxt from the Pioneer... Not a huge difference but noticible. Still very nice sound from the computer so I'm very pleased...

The overall sound from the Pioneer / DAC-60 played via the rest of my system is quite tremendous. My friend, who has heard some very nice sound systems, asked why I was thinking about upgrading the speakers. He didn't see it getting noticably better no matter the (reasonably priced) upgrade. I do feel the sound is now full, detailed, airy, and smooth top to bottom.

More next week after some other listening this weekend.

Loftprojection · « **Reply #134 on:** 28 Apr 2006, 02:21 am »

Quote from: outlawrocketman

Unfortunately, the DAC-60 is really showing the difference between the AAC 160-bit ripped CDs and the apple lossless ripped CDs. Unfortunate because now I find it hard to listen to the compressed. That's going to be a lot of re-ripping!

Oh, even with apple lossless, the Pioneer sounds better than the computer output. Not sure why, as both should be a pure digital bit pattern delivered to the DAC-60. Possibly because I'm using a 5m or so TOSLINK for the computer and going with a 1m siltech stockholm mxt from the Pioneer... Not a huge difference but noticible. Still very nice sound from the computer so I'm very pleased...

Hey Peter, thanks for all this info. No surprise, you just learned that compressing music gives you a compressed sound, no good. Hopefully there is more and more people who make this discovery and so music companies start investing in internet site where we can download quality non compressed files and telecom companies upgrade bandwidth...

By the way, you should be able to beat the sound of your Pioneer as a transport quite easily with your computer. Make sure you have a high quality, bit perfect sound card, a high quality interconnect and use a high quality player software like Foobar2000. If any of these are low quality, no wonder the Pioneer beats the computer...

Keep us informed, it's fun!

outlawrocketman · « **Reply #135 on:** 28 Apr 2006, 02:32 am »

Hey Loftprojection,

Hmm, any recommendations on computer stuff welcome. I'm using a creative x-fi pro for the toslink source. Using itunes (and stuck with it) for the music player. I'd guess it's the toslink cable although it is a wyde eye glass pro...

Loftprojection · « **Reply #136 on:** 28 Apr 2006, 02:04 pm »

Quote from: outlawrocketman

Hey Loftprojection,

Hmm, any recommendations on computer stuff welcome. I'm using a creative x-fi pro for the toslink source. Using itunes (and stuck with it) for the music player. I'd guess it's the toslink cable although it is a wyde eye glass pro...

Hum, I'm not the best reference you can find, I'm pretty amateur! There is a lot of info on http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=59. The "headphone" community contains some real pros of computer audio. Basically from what I've read, some people think all sound card in digital is all the same, nah, it's not, some sound card output "better" digital then others. Also for your testing/comparison, you should always use the exact same interconnect between your Pioneer and your computer, otherwise the test is not really apples to apples. I'm not sure but I think there are also some configurations in Itunes and/or drivers that help sound quality. I use Foobar2000 so not much help from me with Itunes.

nhtran · « **Reply #137 on:** 28 Apr 2006, 02:13 pm »

outlawrocketman,

Are you using the stock tubes? If so I suggest you roll some NOS tubes. You can usually find a decent pair of Amprex 7308's for $50-80 on ebay.

NT

erlebo · « **Reply #138 on:** 28 Apr 2006, 02:23 pm »

Quote from: outlawrocketman

Hey Loftprojection,

Hmm, any recommendations on computer stuff welcome. I'm using a creative x-fi pro for the toslink source. Using itunes (and stuck with it) for the music player. I'd guess it's the toslink cable although it is a wyde eye glass pro...

The Toslink cable is not the problem. Like Loftprojection said, you don't have bit-perfect output. Both Windows and most consumer sound cards resample, for mixing multiple streams. You need a sound card that doesn't do that, like the M-Audio Audiophile 2496. You also need a player that bypasses the Windows mixer by using the ASIO driver of that card. foobar2000 can do it, but my favorite is J. River Media Center.

How can you be sure that you have a bit-perfect digital out? Play a DTS wav file and send it to any DTS DAC or receiver. When it locks to it as a DTS signal, you have achieved it. If any small change is made, like lowering your player's digital volume from 100% to 99%, the lock is lost.

outlawrocketman · « **Reply #139 on:** 1 May 2006, 06:34 pm »

nhtran, thanks for the tube pointer. Haven't upgraded from the stock tubes yet.

erlebo, thanks for the computer audio info. Unfortunately I'd have to re-rip all of my CDs to move to the bit-perfect solution. Next time I have a few weeks free I might think about it!