VMPS will be announcing the BIGGEST development EVER!!!!!

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ctviggen

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VMPS will be announcing the BIGGEST development EVER!!!!!
« Reply #80 on: 15 Sep 2005, 06:06 pm »
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Compared to the RM30 without the new upgrade, that speaker would not remain in my listening room. Way too hot for my tastes. I suppose I could tuning pot adjust, but after living with pot adjustment mania with the 626Rs, always tweaking them, always thinking I might not have it right, well, I just don't want to go through that again...and with the new RM30's....no tuning pot adjustments nor puddy pinching is necessary.  There, now you have a little bit of the secret. Hope B doesn't come after me with skinning knife in hand.


I guess that I misinterpreted what you said.  When you said "no tuning pot adjustments nor puddy pinching is necessary", I thought you meant these were gone.

John B

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VMPS will be announcing the BIGGEST development EVER!!!!!
« Reply #81 on: 15 Sep 2005, 06:38 pm »
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I guess that I misinterpreted what you said. When you said "no tuning pot adjustments nor puddy pinching is necessary", I thought you meant these were gone.


I can see how you could interpret it that way.  Well guys, guess now's as good a time as any to reveal the scoop....nope, not what the new technology is  :nono:   :P  I've just ordered my own piano black, fully maxed out version of the next gen RM30's.  I'm back in VMPS land with a vengence.  Now for the hard part, the waiting for my "baby" to be built.   At least I've got the Beta unit to keep my appetite whetted  :lol:

JoshK

VMPS will be announcing the BIGGEST development EVER!!!!!
« Reply #82 on: 15 Sep 2005, 08:04 pm »
Anyone want to speculate what it might be?  See who has the closest guess?

BC said it addresses one of the most significant problems with speaker designing.  Someone can look up the exact quote.  So what are the most significant problems in speaker designing?

My beliefs about the most significant problems in speaker designing:

1) comb filtering

2) phase distortion.  i.e. departures from linear phase are phase distortions, and while minimum phase is good it isn't linear phase, which is virtually impossible with analog passive parts to negate.   Maybe the discovery is an analogy to passive power factor correction.

3) driver non-linearities.

4) large step changes in the power response, or atleast forward response of the speaker system.

Did I miss anything obvious?

ctviggen

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VMPS will be announcing the BIGGEST development EVER!!!!!
« Reply #83 on: 15 Sep 2005, 08:25 pm »
What is minimum phase, anyway?  My ETF program shows minimum phase, but I don't know what that is (and Google turns up minimum phase equalization -- is this the same thing?).  What does "large step changes in the power response" mean and why is that bad?

warnerwh

VMPS will be announcing the BIGGEST development EVER!!!!!
« Reply #84 on: 15 Sep 2005, 08:28 pm »
Jeez Josh let's not choose anything too difficult. If it's one of those then we are in for a treat.

John Casler

VMPS will be announcing the BIGGEST development EVER!!!!!
« Reply #85 on: 15 Sep 2005, 09:04 pm »
Quote from: JoshK
Anyone want to speculate what it might be?  See who has the closest guess?

BC said it addresses one of the most significant problems with speaker designing.  Someone can look up the exact quote.  So what are the most significant problems in speaker designing?

My beliefs about the most significant problems in speaker designing:

1) comb filtering

2) phase distortion. i.e. departures from linear phase are phase distortions, and while minimum phase is good it isn't linear phase, which is virtually impossible with analog passive parts to negate. Maybe the discovery is an analogy to passive power factor correction.

3) driver non-linearities.

4) large step changes in the power response, or atleast forward response of the speaker system.

Did I miss anything obvious?
...


Yes Josh that is most of them and the new technology takes care of "ALL" of them.

 :o  :o  :o  :o  :o

Of course I could be kidding :wink:

John B

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VMPS will be announcing the BIGGEST development EVER!!!!!
« Reply #86 on: 15 Sep 2005, 09:11 pm »
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Of course I could be kidding


Don't get their hopes up John...one of the biggest problems in speaker designing is making one that appeals to our non-audiophile wives.  To combine decor matching dimensions and looks along with female voice activated volume lowering is the true challenge  :mrgreen:

ScottMayo

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VMPS will be announcing the BIGGEST development EVER!!!!!
« Reply #87 on: 15 Sep 2005, 09:13 pm »
Quote from: JoshK
Anyone want to speculate what it might be? ...BC said it addresses one of the most significant problems with speaker designing.  


If we're going to play Guess, let's get all the known facts on the table.  :lol:

1. Cheap upgrade. I think someone mentioned under $300 per pair. (Most companies can't *sneeze* for under $300).

2. Anyone can do it, with a screwdriver and (presumably) the new part(s).

3. Smoother sound, according to one reviewer. Vague references to improved imaging.

4. Solves "a big problem" in speaker design.

5. It's nothing trivially obvious because a LOT of bright minds spend all day fretting over nothing but this very question.

6. It's patentable.

7. Brian installed an early version *while JC sat there with his eyes closed*, so it doesn't take days to integrate - just minutes at most. Which means it isn't hours of fiddly adjustments and micrometer work.

Imaging improves if you improve the phase matching of the drivers. The only way I know of to make a speaker that preserves phase perfectly is to have a single driver, and the only driver I know of that handles 20-20k well is made of electrically charged plasma, and I don't think anyone's built a working plasma speaker for $300.

I can imagine a circuit that samples the output of the speaker and makes guesses to correct the phase relationships on the fly. But I can't imagine it for less than $300. A good, sensitive microphone alone runs that much and more.

What can you do for $300? Well, drivers costs less than that, and you can replace a driver with a screwdriver, so it could be a new kind of driver. But Brian buys drivers (albeit to his own specs, if I remember) - and if a manufacturer of drivers had a improvement of real significance, even if someone else designed it and it was still hush-hush... there'd be rumors out. Somebody's stock price would be up. :-) Besides, replacing most of the drivers on, say, an RM/x has to cost over $300/pair. And it would take crossover adjustments, probably more than you can do with two pots.

What about a new crossover? BC's crossovers already use hand-shaved caps and other high tolerance parts, if you dish out for it. And there are WAY too many EE's out there studying crossovers for me to think that there are any cheap improvements left in that area. $300 doesn't even cover the parts in one of BC's high end crossovers. If it *is* a whole new crossover design that, say, leaves phase utterly alone, provides a flat load to an amp and has no tendency to varying sensitivity at different frequencies, then Brian is going to be very rich, everyone else is going to be very sad, and I'm going to be very startled. Happy, but startled.

What about some sort of wave guide attachment? Without snide comments about Bose, something could be bolted onto a cabinet to change diffractions and so on. But there's prior art in that area, and besides, the RM/x's claim to fame is that this problem is pretty well licked. But a new "shape" is something that could be done for $300... so I still wonder about this.

Getting drivers not to interfere with each other could be interesting... but I can't see an easy way to isolate them sonically, better than they are.

Cabinet resonance? Only cure for that is weight and sound absorption, and while weight is cheap, it's not patentable. Besides, the RM's are already good in this area. There's not too much to cure and plenty of prior art in curing it.

Maybe a whole new cabinet material? Not for $300.

What about driver surface flexing and breakup? A new coating for the midrange panels to make them stiffer? Not without adding mass to the driver. Maybe an untrathin plate of something (metal turned out to sound harsh, maybe it's mica's turn... :D ), but no, that's not field installable. At least not by me.

Bottom line, if I knew as much as Brian did about design, I'd build speakers. I just don't know enough to outguess him, though it's fun to try. I'll have a good laugh at myself when he announces, and I look back at this list and realise how ignorant I am.  :lol:

ScottMayo

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VMPS will be announcing the BIGGEST development EVER!!!!!
« Reply #88 on: 15 Sep 2005, 09:21 pm »
Quote from: John B

Don't get their hopes up John...one of the biggest problems in speaker designing is making one that appeals to our non-audiophile wives.  To combine decor matching dimensions and looks along with female voice activated volume lowering is the true challenge  :mrgreen:


No, I think given the target audience, this actually goes the other way.

He's redesigned the speakers to resemble Angelina Jolie. The sonics will instantly become unimportant because no one will be able to engage their brains enough to hear a single note anyway, and audiophile jokes about "sleeping with your speakers" will have a whole new relevance. No wonder JC thought they were flawless. :-)

(There are other jokes that could be made about improved response, breakin, and bi-amping, and we're not going to make them. We're better than that. Right? )

John Casler

VMPS will be announcing the BIGGEST development EVER!!!!!
« Reply #89 on: 15 Sep 2005, 09:35 pm »
Not sure where the $300 came from, but I think it will certainly be much more than that at the retail level.

John B

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VMPS will be announcing the BIGGEST development EVER!!!!!
« Reply #90 on: 15 Sep 2005, 09:47 pm »
Quote
He's redesigned the speakers to resemble Angelina Jolie
 Of all the speculation so far, you've actually come closer with this idea than you know  :rotflmao:

brj

VMPS will be announcing the BIGGEST development EVER!!!!!
« Reply #91 on: 15 Sep 2005, 09:48 pm »
Quote from: John Casler
Not sure where the $300 came from, but I think it will certainly be much more than that at the retail level.


From BC on page 6 of this thread.

Quote from: Brian Cheney
The new technology will be available to retrofit all RM and 626 series speakers for less than $300pr, perhaps much less.

John B

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VMPS will be announcing the BIGGEST development EVER!!!!!
« Reply #92 on: 15 Sep 2005, 10:02 pm »
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John Casler wrote:
Not sure where the $300 came from, but I think it will certainly be much more than that at the retail level.


From BC on page 6 of this thread.

Brian Cheney wrote:
The new technology will be available to retrofit all RM and 626 series speakers for less than $300pr, perhaps much less.


Unfortunatly that was before I suggested the "Angelina Jolie" improvement  :lol:  That upped it a grand.  But trust me, she's worth it.   :bounce:

John Casler

VMPS will be announcing the BIGGEST development EVER!!!!!
« Reply #93 on: 15 Sep 2005, 10:26 pm »
Quote from: brj
Quote from: John Casler
Not sure where the $300 came from, but I think it will certainly be much more than that at the retail level.


From BC on page 6 of this thread.

Quote from: Brian Cheney
The new technology will be available to retrofit all RM and 626 series speakers for less than $300pr, perhaps much less.


Hmmmm...

Unless B has some new manufacturing technique, I still think it will be more.

But only time will tell. :D

ScottMayo

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Re: upgrade
« Reply #94 on: 15 Sep 2005, 10:47 pm »
Quote from: Brian Cheney
The new technology will be available to retrofit all RM and 626 series speakers for less than $300pr, perhaps much less.


It came from the manufacturer. How much speaker prices go up is a different matter - I was talking about what might be possible at the manufacturer's stated cost.

JoshK

VMPS will be announcing the BIGGEST development EVER!!!!!
« Reply #95 on: 15 Sep 2005, 11:28 pm »
Quote from: ctviggen
What is minimum phase, anyway?  My ETF program shows minimum phase, but I don't know what that is (and Google turns up minimum phase equalization -- is this the same thing?).  What does "large step changes in the power response" mean and why is that bad?


Sorry, I wasn't ignoring you but this is a topic of a whole nother thread. Which we can start but to be brief.

Re: linear phase  http://www.uaudio.com/webzine/2003/december/text/content2.html

I am not sure I could do justice to the power response argument, but I could give a shot.  Linkwitz Labs has some info on this, especially when he is discussing polar radiation and also arguing when dipole bass is a good thing.

Brian Cheney

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upgrade
« Reply #96 on: 15 Sep 2005, 11:59 pm »
Well, everybody's speculations are right on.  Forget the $300 price, it's going to be "what the traffic will bear".  

Siegfried will be proud of me.

Corbin Johnson

VMPS will be announcing the BIGGEST development EVER!!!!!
« Reply #97 on: 16 Sep 2005, 12:46 am »
I'll pay a premium if I don't have to solder.

Corbin

KJ

VMPS will be announcing the BIGGEST development EVER!!!!!
« Reply #98 on: 16 Sep 2005, 12:53 am »
Quote from: Brian Cheney
Forget the $300 price, it's going to be "what the traffic will bear".

Don't forget your roots - "We do not price our products to mislead the consumer, who naturally assumes price and quality are related."

-KJ

Brian Cheney

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« Reply #99 on: 16 Sep 2005, 01:15 am »
That was the old me.