Gravity Well Of A DarkStar

JohninCR · « **Reply #1120 on:** 31 Aug 2006, 09:58 pm »

Richard,

I'm not sure what sparked the snide comments that you started
up in the past 5 or 6 pages, but it's grown quite old.

You and others can throw around terms like quasi-science etc.
all you want. Thankfully Linkwitz and JohnK have graciously
shared the science with all who are willing to learn it. I'm baffled
why anyone would try to stifle someone helping others understand
the what's and why's of things that work, and more importantly,
things that don't work related to the physical design of open
baffles. If there's some hidden agenda at play, just let me know
and I may chose not to participate, but otherwise keep your
childish remarks to yourself. Your attempts to hide them behind
flamboyant language doesn't make them any less childish.

BTW, I have no problem with Dmason in any way. Obviously
anyone who insinuates, however unintentionally, that the B200
can handle 250 watts in OB is going to get called on that kind
of outlandish statement, because it is simply misleading, as
are statements regarding tremendous amounts of bass and flat
response from the B200. The B200 is good enough to stand on
it's own, so painting an unrealistic picture will just lead to
disappointment for newcomers. It goes extremely loud on very
little power. Lots of people are content with rolled off bass,
and many people prefer an uptilted response (it's much less
uptilted than Lowthers and look at their following).

Dmason · « **Reply #1121 on:** 31 Aug 2006, 10:27 pm »

John,

Your halo is getting alittle tight. Come on down out of your banana tree and pour a dacquiri.

None of my comments are misleading. The power issue, and concomitant example was simply to point out that the B200 is NO SHINKING VIOLET. If you got the impression that I stated this thing could suffer 250 watts, go back and read it again. I described certain specifications of a certain amplifier, no less, no more.

In a smaller room, yes, the B200 CAN produce prodigious amounts of bass, and I point to the growing number of people whom can comment on this for themselves.

I do not question the science coming from Dr. Linkwitz.

My stated thesis on this whole thing, as Windchaser pointed out, was contained in the very first post, and could simply be distilled to, "hey- try this." And now we have all this crapola. I cannot condone anything, or anyone's behaviour in a goddam HOBBY, that makes a deliberate attempt to slander me personally, when in my "real life," I spend the hours that I do helping to ameliorate the suffering of others; Sixty hours last week, and I am not getting any younger. I will be in Costa Rica this February, John, feel free to take a poke at me there, away from this thread. This will be my last post to this thread, simply because I have lost interest, no other reason or agenda, or protest vote, etc.

I encourage all the others to keep up the good experimentation, and to share with us their findings...

mcgsxr · « **Reply #1122 on:** 31 Aug 2006, 10:50 pm »

Hmmn, funny turns of late, with folks setting up camps for whatever reason, etc.

Dump it all.

Just buy a set of these, and play around, you will get it, or you won't - I won't call you anything for either conclusion, I really think it has a lot to do with some presently very difficult intangibles.

Namely:

1 - room shape, volume, and configuration
2 - associated gear
3 - your hearing
4 - the music you like
5 - the presentation of that music, that you like, in your room, with your gear, in your state of mind!

Please folks, let's just keep sharing ideas, that is what this thread, my favourite thread in cyberspace anywhere (ie not just on AC), is all about.

Buy. Try. Learn. Share.

I am reminded of the rave motto "PLUR" at this point - Peace, Love, Understanding, and Respect.

Have some fun with some gear, and share what you find.

I promise to keep reading, even when I am confused, or when your findings contradict my own - I have never been you, and it is only a remote possibility that I will ever be!

Take care all, I hope to mount my 12 inch subs into my main baffles this weekend - and I know that some have had bad experiences with doing so, I just need to try it.

If it works, I will say it does, in the context of my points 1-5 above. If it does not, expect this Canuck to be equally frank, you will read tons around here about what I have thought about bad synergistic amps with my b200's, not just the songs of praise for those prized combinations that I find pleasing.

JohninCR · « **Reply #1123 on:** 1 Sep 2006, 12:13 am »

I should have abandoned ship when I first noticed over-sensitivity 10 or so pages
pages ago, but this is the most active place to discuss OB's, so I didn't. It appears
those who poke first using terms like "quasi-science" somehow can't handle any
poking back. To accuse me of slander for calling the following statement misleading
really takes the cake, especially when I specifically included the word unintentional:
"I used mine with a Hafler 9505, 250 watt A/AB monster for awhile, and the B200
really, really love all that current, and can sink buckets of power without ANY trouble
at all."

Let's just move past the personal attacks and get on with the discussion keeping in
mind that we all should be tolerant of those having differing viewpoints. I believe
several people should go back and take an objective look at a number of posts in the
past 20 pages for a fresh perspective. I already did.

corloc · « **Reply #1124 on:** 1 Sep 2006, 03:36 pm »

Enough!!! With the personality pissing contest!!! I wound like to learn something. I personaly wound like as much minds in the well as possible. Take the bashing somewere else. Lets get on with why were here. B200

Chris

rajacat · « **Reply #1125 on:** 1 Sep 2006, 03:50 pm »

I'm a long time lurker but not a open baffle DIY tweeker yet. I feel that some of the more active posters are overly sensitive to criticism to the point that the dialogue has degenerated to where the thread may soon lose its' gravitational pull and explode into space. Please chill out!

Raja

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #1126 on:** 1 Sep 2006, 04:59 pm »

Quote from: mcgsxr on 31 Aug 2006, 10:50 pm

Hmmn, funny turns of late, with folks setting up camps for whatever reason, etc.

Dump it all.

Just buy a set of these, and play around, you will get it, or you won't - I won't call you anything for either conclusion, I really think it has a lot to do with some presently very difficult intangibles.

Namely:

1 - room shape, volume, and configuration
2 - associated gear
3 - your hearing
4 - the music you like
5 - the presentation of that music, that you like, in your room, with your gear, in your state of mind!

Please folks, let's just keep sharing ideas, that is what this thread, my favourite thread in cyberspace anywhere (ie not just on AC), is all about.

Buy. Try. Learn. Share.

I am reminded of the rave motto "PLUR" at this point - Peace, Love, Understanding, and Respect.

Have some fun with some gear, and share what you find.

I promise to keep reading, even when I am confused, or when your findings contradict my own - I have never been you, and it is only a remote possibility that I will ever be!

Take care all...

Thank you Mark for the above the observations AND the wise words of admonishment...

Those five points are very legitimate…

Regarding point number 2, yesterday I tried listening to the Super T amp through the B200’s and my first question was, “what happened to the bass?” All the reviews I read said this amp has bass and plenty of it. Really? Perhaps the amp needs a few more hours to break in, but I don’t have the patience for that. Right from day one the Charlize was by far the better sounding amp and not just in the bass department. At $90 ($107 USD with shipping) everyone can afford one of these. The synergy (the combined action of two or more components working together) between the Charlize and the B200 is absolutely fabulous. If you are disappointed with the bottom end output of the B200, try a Charlize and report back.

John

mcgsxr · « **Reply #1127 on:** 1 Sep 2006, 05:05 pm »

John, interesting that the Charlize does so well with the b200 - I have not had any good luck with any Tripath amp, in my room etc. Wonderful mids and highs, but the bass sounded like the graph looked, with Tripath amps in my experience.

I have heard lots of folks with Clari-T's and related amps, suggesting what you do.

Thanks for the heads up, if my little tube amp experiment fails, I might use that as a fall back!

Be well,

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #1128 on:** 1 Sep 2006, 05:16 pm »

Hey Mark,

Since you're in Canada, I'll loan you one of my two Charlize amps. I'll send it out early next week.

John

corloc · « **Reply #1129 on:** 1 Sep 2006, 05:41 pm »

Yeo does very nice work. I still am looking at buying a Charlize. For now I use another one of his creations. The "Simple EL84 Amp" it does a exceptional job with the B200's. I'm still curious if 10's of more watts of power will give the bottom end a boost. Maybe Signatue 30 or one of 41hz creations.

scorpion · « **Reply #1130 on:** 1 Sep 2006, 07:49 pm »

To the Thread,

This thread has gone overboard just because the lack of PLUR = Plurality and common sense. I do agree with 'mcgxsr' in his
statement above. He aired the same expressions after my edgy comment on one of 'Oldtimer's' too sweeping conclusions and they are still valid.

The last exemple of this 'only one truth' is the suggestion that if you don't hear the bass you would like to hear from your OB B200s it is because
you do not have them connected to a Charlize amplifier. (Sic !)

If you didn't like your last drive between Montreal and Ottawa it is because you didn't drive in a Ford Prefect (I don't know if that model existed on the other side of the Atlantic, it was the most popular Ford model in Europe just after the 2nd World War) but as usual
took your Ferrari.

I will give a very pratical and easily checked exemple performed with my stereo OB B200s. These OBs are flat and mesuring 100 x 70 cm, they are still testbaffles. I have the CD 'Atom Bomb' with The Blind Boys Of Alabama. Many of you might have it. Play the the 1st entry: '(Jesus hits like the) Atom Bomb'. I have done that and it is a very good exemple because it is not dynamic at all. It plays at almost the same level all the time. On the other hand it contains a quite low going Electrical Bass Guitar that also is there all the time.

Now I took my RS Sound Level Meter and mesured the SPL at my stereo spot listening position which is 2.5 meters from any speaker, the speakers placed 2.30 meters apart. The speakers are placed a little bit over 1 m from the back wall and almost exactly 1 m from the side wall. My room is 35 sqm big and probably not absorbing too much sound because of its Scandinavian style, no fluffy carpets, no heavy curtains and no upbolstered sofas.

At my listening position I could mesure 86 dBC before the B200 begin to distort that Bass-Guitar. This distortion is not easily heard at the listening position but it is there. How do I know that it is there ? Because if you listen close to the B200 it is easily heard. It would not be denied by anyone with normal hearing, I am quite certain. And, also if you progress the sound level higher it begins also to distort the lyrics because that Bass-Guitar helps you hitting the B200's mechanical limits.

Now 86 dB at the stereo listening position is a very respectable SPL. I seldom go any higher in normal listening. But as 'MarkC' stated the B200 is intoxicating when played loud. This is an exemple of what is meant when I say that one B200 itself (or a stereo pair) cannot provide the bass power you might want in any given instance.

/Erling

markC · « **Reply #1131 on:** 1 Sep 2006, 09:09 pm »

Mark, (the other Mark), has , I believe, some very valid points. Two that I will comment on are the room that the drivers are in and the associated equipment. The room, to my ears, is huge. After finishing the cork job on my baffles at my friends house, we set them up in the work shop which is block walls and open ceiling with ductwork. The amps driving them were almost identical to mine, (they were actually the prototype), with a little less power. The upper mid sting that I have spoken of was not sting, but drilling and annoying. Also, pre amp was tube, as mine is and cd player was an older high end Denon.
My room is carpeted with acoustic foam on the front end or the room and 4 bass traps. Big difference.

While I was running in the b200's in my garage with simple plywood baffles, I was using a Panasonic mini system with cassette rather than cd. Of course I used FM for the most part but would occasionally pop in a cassette and have a listen. Way less bass with the mini system and guess what? Those poor drivers would flop all over the place. Excursion was easily over the limit at way less volume than my main system. Why? The ability of the amplifier to control the driver. The back EMF would kick the snot out of the cheap Panasonic system while the muscular mono blocks will tolerate no such thing. The huge amount of headroom that I have is for sure overkill but it's very important IMHO, to have a good amount of headroom with the b200. And I don't care what anyone says, they can handle a lot of power without self-destructing. Believe me on this one-I know. Do they distort - of course they do but they hold it together during silly spl experiments. Then you can turn the volume down to normal listening range and all is well again-no harm done.

scorpion · « **Reply #1132 on:** 1 Sep 2006, 09:29 pm »

markC,

Very interesting to read your findings: They seem to be much identical to my own. You can throw a lot of power at the B200 and they will just take it and go on. The 'small' problems that excist are at the bass end, which needs assistance, and the rising FR and especially the highs at 2 and 3 kHz which to me are annoying and must be handled.

This done good, the OB B200 would be a though competitor to any loudspeaker around !

I should have stated in my earlier post that the B200s are placed in the centre of my testbaffles but only 41 cms above floor level.

/Erling

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #1133 on:** 1 Sep 2006, 09:46 pm »

All,

I think it will be beneficial for everyone if we take JohnR up on his offer to start a dedicated Open Baffle Circle (special interest group). This thread has an amazing wealth of info, but it think it would be best for everyone to have some breathing room where they can start their own threads in this Open Baffle Circle. Hopefully it will attract others to join in when they see that they have some more play space, and keep more peace between everyone.

We are all in it for the same thing, which is that GREAT OB SOUND, but it is obvious that many of us have our own approaches and experiences with regards to getting there and our own opinions as to what and where "there" really is. Separate threads in a dedicated OB circle seems to me like the best way to go. I think it will also be easier to find information this way than starting at the beginning of this thread and going through all the pages here. I think it is nice to be able to view the subjects of various threads and see where they each are going....like a big tree whose root spread out in so many directions.

I am going to start a poll on the RWA forum to see if the majority is in favor of such a dedicated OB circle. If yes, I will get a hold of JohnR and get this rolling...

As for this Gravity Well thread, I can copy it over to the new OB circle because I want everyone who comes to the new circle to be able to refer to this thread. It is one of the best ones on Audiocircle, IMHO!

Thanks,

Vinnie

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #1134 on:** 1 Sep 2006, 11:30 pm »

Quote from: scorpion on 1 Sep 2006, 07:49 pm

The last exemple of this 'only one truth' is the suggestion that if you don't hear the bass you would like to hear from your OB B200s it is because
you do not have them connected to a Charlize amplifier. (Sic !)

Hey Scorpion,

I don't understand where you are coming from with respect to the above comment. I simply stated that if you are disappointed with the bottom end output of the B200, try a Charlize and report back.

How is it that you get the idea of that being an "only one truth" statement? Please explain.

John.

markC · « **Reply #1135 on:** 1 Sep 2006, 11:45 pm »

Vinnie,
I agree with you 100%. Mainly that we are all, (hopefully), in "it" for the same reason..the best possible sound that we can achieve given our own personal and unique limitations.

I feel that this thread is starting to drift well away from your "manufacturer's site" and it's time to start a new circle. Many thanks for your contributions, and although I am not a customer, I certainly respect what you are doing judging by the feedback and interest that I have experienced here. Of course I would be remiss if I did not mention DMason, who hopefully will reconsider his decision when and if a new circle materializes.

markC · « **Reply #1136 on:** 1 Sep 2006, 11:52 pm »

Scorpion,

I'm actually thinking, (dare I say), of designing a notch filter for them. It won't happen for a while, as I will do a full sweep of the system and compare the numbers to my ears and go from there. I'm concerned about what adding passive componets may do, but running the circuit on my friends simulation software will give a pretty good idea. As usual, more to come...

opnly bafld · « **Reply #1137 on:** 2 Sep 2006, 12:12 am »

Regarding the B200 and power handling,
with an inductor on my lower driver the sensitivity is down and I am using an Eagle 2 SS amp 120w @ 8ohms and 240w @ 4.
I have the volume control waaaay higher than I ever did with my multi-driver towers.
Also, IIRC, using eq in the bass region, as some have done, uses up a lot of watts.

Regarding bass,
in my room, with my kit, and 2 drivers per side, I have good bass for most(85%+?) music I listen to.
(rock, jazz, classical)

Lin

pardales · « **Reply #1138 on:** 4 Sep 2006, 03:03 pm »

I bought a pair of Lowther 2.8 Ambiece speakers from Commonsenseaudio.com -- They feature the Lowther DX3 driver. You can see a picture of them at: http://www.lowtherspeakers.com/lowther.html

In short, I have found what I have been looking for. I did not have the patience to read through this entire thread. I was wondering if anyone else has used these drivers/speakers or other speakers from commonsenseaudio.

Best,

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #1139 on:** 4 Sep 2006, 03:54 pm »

Hey Pardales,

I've always wanted to hear a Lowther but never had the opportunity to hear them before. From my conversations with one owner / fanatic, he said they take a very long time to break in.

John