[Wind Chaser]

Hey JohnnyCR:

Maybe I missed this in this thread but can you explain the difference you are hearing between the Fostex drivers you have and the B200's?

With winged baffles they do not sound at all like the frequency plot to me. The balance is very good.

Ron,

While we are looking at FR plots, how "balanced" would you say the B200 sounds in comparison to this...  http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_comp/pdf/fe108sigma.pdf

A few months ago JohninCR suggested Richard would be thanking him till the cows came home if he employed the Fostex 108 in the place of his B200.  What's your take?

John

[-Richard-]

Hi Wind Chaser ~

Audio seems to inspire in some people a love/hate relationship with various products
and for various reasons.

JohninCR seems to be driven toward his version of perfection. Like a tailor that is never quite
satisfied with a suite of clothes: take in a little more here, let out a little bit here... and each
reshaping has the attendant current measuring strategies thrown about like fairy dust ~

John does not seem to like the B200... although he has presented himself on this thread
simultaneously as a contrarian and an advocate of the B200... taking turns here and there
apparently as the spirit moves him... all this is quite harmless, I think... John is a feisty
creative person who seems to like a good fight so he can exercise his creative thinking ~

I suspect that life in Costa Rica is quite beautiful but perhaps lacks the kind of stimulation
that John seems to thrive on... he has come to the right place... here he will find
friendship and feedback... John also now knows that we are not a passive audience to his
tenacious verbal embarkations ~

All well and good... I really like it when John thinks out loud and shares his creative
ideas, observations and speculations with us... it is a matter of separating the
haranguing proselytizing portion of John's contributions from his sensible suggestions ~

Warm Regards ~ Richard ~

[Wind Chaser]

Richard,

Well said.   John can be more intolerant than open minded.  His strong opinions are not going to convince Ron, yourself, Dmason among others that the B200 sounds like anything like that graph.  The fact is when Ron heard them; we played very bass heavy music… Ron’s been into high end audio for over 25 years, he knows what bass and over all balance is...

Whatever has been John’s experience, it is just that.  Nothing more.  Yet he’ll come on like a hurricane pontificating as one with great authority.  He even deems himself as a “moderate Ayatollah!”  Such Believer’s can be quite oppressive and intolerant.  The limitations of their own experience and theoretical knowledge deter them from enlightenment of the world outside.  I’m all too embarrassed to say that before I began my own investigation I was prejudiced by much of his thinking.

The bottom line is if he if could get over the FR plot, and hear what a few other people have achieved, just how balanced the B200 can sound from top to bottom and how much bass it really can produce, he’d be amazed.  Having a decent pair of headphones I’ve compared the overall balance of the B200 in my room and there’s no way on God’s green earth that there is a variance of 20 db across the audible spectrum.  True, while the top end is slightly tipped up, it’s nowhere near as hot as the Fostex 108, yet the measurements on paper don’t indicate this at all.  What are you going to believe, a line on the paper or what your ears hear?

My only issue with the B200 is that when you through serious bass at it, it quickly runs out of Xmax.  Even at very moderate volumes, you can run the risk of damaging the driver with the right source material. 

John

[scorpion]

JohninCr,

Good Lord, I will be happy if my 8 8" match the B200 but I hope they will in the low end. I am sincerely hoping for a very dynamic
bass speaker. Pushing air is a must but also doing that formidably is something you can only hope to achieve once in a lifetime.

/Erling

[scorpion]

Richard,

I do my listening these days with an 845 SE amp and I am still hearing those extended highs that I want to cure.
I would say that the bassend of the B200 would be satisfactory to me in over 95 % of the music I listen to. But I am in this case aiming for 100 %.

/Erling

[JohninCR]

Ronny,
No manufacturer in their right mind would provide an FR plot of their
driver with no baffle.  They all keep the rear wave out of the response,
making it some form of infinite baffle response, although they do use
different front baffle sizes.  Generally they'd want to use large baffles
to avoid baffle step issues showing up in their response.

I find the FE108EZ to be smoother, more extended, and higher resolution
than the B200.  It's more limited in the power you can apply and obviously
can't make bass on its own in free air operation.  The slight sizzle at the
top with the Fostex goes away with a touch of toe-in, but I had to toe
the B200's in far too much.  That's what I'm hoping to cure with phase plugs.

WindChaser,
It's the FE108ESigma, not the FE108Sigma, and its graph is located here:
http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_comp/pdf/fe108ez.pdf
Ed used to coat the old Sigma series cone with some PVA glue to tame the top,
while the newer ESigma doesn't need it.

Long ago, before I bought one of your pairs of B200's, I told you what would
probably work using multiple B200's, which is quite similar to what you use now
except that you're missing an extra pair of drivers.  Back then you said the B200
was too hot on top, but now you say the opposite.  Make up your mind.

I lived with main speakers having too hot a top end for over a year.  While it
sounds great on some material, it always hurts my ears when I crank it up, so
no thank you, been there, done that, never again.

Richard,
It's not that I don't like the B200, quite the opposite, I like it a lot.  I'm just objective
about it's shortcomings.  I'd put it with the Hawthorne coax as the top 2 full range
units available, and the 2 sound very different.  As more manufacturers start to design
drivers specifically for OB use, we should see even better drivers.  I'm still after full
range down to 30hz, good sensitivity, no XO, in a single driver.  With the right driver,
I know I can build a cab that will do it.

Scorpion,
Powerful OB bass really is worth the extra effort.  Please post a link to the other DIY
graphs of the B200 that you mentioned?  I really don't want to get into the measurement
game to make a point.  I guess we all have different sensitivities to sound, and I know
I'm very sensitive to what goes on in the critical range around 3khz.

[-Richard-]

Hi Wind Chaser/John ~

According to conversations with Dmason several hundred light years ago, the B200's
where/are enjoying a great deal of popularity in Germany and elsewhere and they are in the
laudable and inviable position of helping to create a paradigm shift in audio toward a
resurgence and renaissance in Open Baffle speakers ~

I helped Roger Modjeski measure the B200's in his laboratory... Roger is not only a genius
in his own right, but he is an extremely self-disciplined scientist who measures everything
that comes to his attention very carefully. He used several methods to measure the
performance of the B200's including the use of individual tone bursts. He does not rely on
computer software programs for his measurements because he feels
they are flawed and simplistic ~

We spent hours plotting a curve. The results showed that there is indeed a falling off of
lower frequency information below 200 Hz. The rest of the plotted graph however was
noticeably flat. Not ruler flat of course... but Roger seemed to be impressed with the
B200's performance above 200 Hz ~

This may sound strange but I feel uncomfortable finding myself in a position of defending
the B200 to our audience of readers that are participating on this thread... it is so cheap
to purchase a pair and try it in a simple wood panel that if anyone needs their arms
twisted after reading all the glowing feedback from obviously intelligent and experienced
audio enthusiasts that it makes me think that perhaps it is not for them...

It is very difficult to leave the deep grooves made in a road and to veer off the path to enter
the dangerous ground of the forest... what after all lies behind those trees...
what was that rustling in the tall grasses... where are the markers to help me find my way
through this unknown territory?

Well of course, this very thread is one of the markers... here information is free and one
can absorb a tremendous amount of feedback just by spending a bit of time here ~

I have insisted over and over again that all one needs is a simple wood baffle and a
pair of B200's to get started in all of this... to learn what Open Baffle sounds like
in order to begin to get a taste of an incredibly "living" sound that has all of the
attributes of what is being hoisted on us from the commercial speaker manufacturers...
but with the addition that makes music come completely alive!!!!!

JohinCR has entered this thread with his hocus-pocus quasi-science being tossed around
like snow in a winter night obscuring the facts that a simple baffle is all you need...
he drags out this formula and then that delivered with jack-hammer prose that is designed
to undermine ones confidence in attempting to get into this in the simplest way possible ~

He is no different than the manufacturers of audio fluff... they too wish to convince us that
they have the goods... one must learn to see-through all of that posturing on every level
of ones life... and this is as good a place to start as any... for those who have come
upon this thread for the first time... purchase a pair of B200's and stick them is a simple
wood baffle and find out what we are talking about ~

Or allow yourselves to listen to JohninCR and let his hocus-pocus prose convince you that
he has the goods and you must somehow go through him to get at this thing ~

Hi Erling:

From your writing you seem to be a very sophisticated audio enthusiast with some
real experience behind you. I am not familiar with 845 amps... but I assume from the
way you mentioned your amp that you are quite confident that it is very resolving and
not responsible for the spotlit high frequency anomalies you are experiencing with your
current version of a B200 OB ~

You may also want to think about your CD player... here is the basis for my suggestions:
a few weeks ago S.Rayle visited me here in Ojai and he brought a great many audio
products with him to try on my OB's... we heard several amps: Vinnie's Signature 30,
Roger Modjeski's RM 245.1/45 SET, Don Garber's 2A3 Fi monoblock's, and a Single Ended
Pentode integrated amp that uses 6L6 output tubes... in every case, using every amp,
including several preamps, there was never any hint of a lack of upper frequency
resolution; no spotlighting, no glare, no anomalies ~

On the other hand I have had several amps hooked up to my OB's that sounded
truly ragged on top (I am not suggesting that your OB's sound like that... just sharing
my own experience)... several were SS amps and one was the Almarro what-ever
that is so highly touted these days ~

That is what prompted me to suggest that your amp might be contributing to what you
are hearing... my wife Deborah has incredibly sensitive aural accuity... she hates
SS amps... her tolerance is perhaps 3 minutes before she turns to me with a pained
look in her face... Deb L-O-V-E-S tubes... and she loves the B200's for their upper
frequency resolution... Deb and I have listened to perhaps 60 different speakers through
the years... so we have a pretty good idea how things sound and what we can reasonably
expect from different strategies of speaker design ~

Nothing even comes close what we are hearing right now ~

I am entirely sympathetic, Erling, with your wish to get your B200's to play lower
in order to hear the sumptuous musical offerings in your recordings... please keep
us informed of your explorations ~

Warm Regards ~ Richard ~

[JohninCR]

Richard,

I really no idea what you are talking about with this "let his hocus-pocus prose convince you that
he has the goods and you must somehow go through him to get at this thing" and "JohinCR has entered this thread with his hocus-pocus quasi-science being tossed around like snow in a winter night obscuring the facts that a simple baffle is all you need...he drags out this formula and then that delivered with jack-hammer prose that is designed to undermine ones confidence in attempting to get into this in the simplest way possible."

I'm not selling anything, except the idea that OB's don't have to be big flat pieces of wood and you don't need multiple amps and fancy electronics to get real bass (not rolled off below 200hz).  I've shared how to get from big baffles to normal sized speakers, including how to get around the pitfalls along the way.  I'm only here to share and learn, nothing more, so if my jackhammer writing style offends you, don't read it.  I definitely won't waste my time reading your meaningless fluff.

Presenting the idea that only tube amps can sound good is absurd, and I'll not participate in that debate as I own and like both.  I'm sure Vinnie, who hosts this thread, would take exception, since he sells amps without tubes.  I also believe that a good speaker should sound good with any amp, and vice versa.  While differences in taste obviously make the ultimate difference, if you're chasing the synergy tail, then you're really just trying to match compromized designs in both your speakers and amps to achieve the magic combination. 

About the only thing we can agree on is that people should just get a driver and put it on a piece of wood to get started, however, in DIY a starting point is never the ending point, and I don't see you providing any insight whatsoever to get past the starting point where you seem to be stuck.

[-Richard-]

I would like to state again to anyone who is interested, that I alternate between 2 amps with my
OB's... Vinnie's Signature 30 which I love, and as Srajan said recently in an Asylum thread
on SET's: "Red Wine Audio Signature 30 - not a hybrid in the true sense of the word
but certainly sonically - very "SET-ish" though its own sound that's between sand and glass but can
make devotees of either camp happy." ~

Srajan definitely has it right, the other is a SET 45 tube amp designed by Roger Modjeski.

Warm Regards ~ Richard ~

[Wind Chaser]

I was speaking with Mark (mcgsxr) last night.  He had loaned his B200’s to friend who seemed to be very impressed with the bass he was getting in his room, unlike Mark who finds them to be bass shy in his room...  When Rocket Ronny heard them in his room we got pretty good bass (FAR MORE than the Horns with the FE126) however the B200’s in the same baffle 48” off the front wall in my room produces considerably more bass.  Undeniably the room itself makes a pretty significant difference as to what kind of bass you are going to get

As for the 108 Sigma vs. the 108E Sigma, I remember talking to Ed Schilling when Fostex discontinued the original 108 Sigma for the E version.  He truly felt that the E Sigma didn’t have what he calls the “it” factor of the original 108 Sigma.  And as for coating the driver, he only did that for a short time.  He ultimately preferred the original Sigma in its stock form.  But when of necessity he was forced to go with the E Sigma, he had to modify the driver to eek out as much resolution as ppossible…  He honestly believes that the E Sigma isn’t on par with the original Sigma and was overjoyed when he finally found what he considered to be a superior driver.  At that time just about every Hornshoppe owner flogged their 108’s in favor of the 126 and not one of them has come forward with regret. 

I never stated that the B200 was too hot on the top end.  While I’ll concede that it is somewhat bright, it isn’t anywhere near as bright as what JohninCR or Scorpion claim in that it has to be toned down in order to be considered what Scorpion calls “hifi.”

Roger Modjeski’s findings remind me of Don Nodiak’s measurements...  From about 200 Hz to 8K Don measured a flat response within 3db.  It’s really too bad we can’t hear what everyone one has achieved with the B200 in the context of their own immediate room.

Obviously anyone lurking on the outside that is curious can best benefit from Richard’s advice.  Buy a pair of drivers a build a few baffles.  If you want maximum bass extension use wings.  JohninCR recommends making this type of baffle just big enough to mount the driver, 9.5” – 10” wide with a difference of two inches between one wing and the other.

The Sabbath is drawing on and it's time to bail out of Babylon.

Shalom, brothers!

[scorpion]

Here is a link to Klang & Ton where they have made some of their measured speakerdata public: http://www.brieden.de/verlagsobjekte/kut_messdaten.html.
Chose Visaton as manufacturer ('Hersteller' in German) and you can download a zip-file with their data.

The Hobby Hi-Fi measurements I am afraid is only published in the magazine.

/Erling

[-Richard-]

Thanks for the information Erling... one simple experiment you may want to consider
is if you have a pair of box speakers around that goes down to say the 40Hz region, you
could hook the pair up in parallel with your B200's using a simple copper coil inductor
(choke) that is designed for a 100Hz or 150Hz cut off... all copper coil unductor's have
a 6db roll-off above their designated cut off range ~

Or you could bi-amp your box speakers using a simple "Y" splitter interconnect from your
RCA CD jack... in the states Circuit City carries them for $35 (+or-) ~

That is exactly what I am listening to now... I have Louis Chochos's Bipole box speakers
set behind my OB panels firing side-ways on the floor... they use 4 small Fostex 4"
drivers, the FE127E, which produces sound down to the 40Hz region with the floor as
reinforcement... in this application they are hooked-up in parallel with my B200's...
I use Vinnie's Signature 30 (Deb loves the Signature 30, as smooth sounding as the finest
cashmere) or Roger's 45 SET amp to drive all the speakers... I have found no benefit
so far in biamping in spite of the fact that it allows the option to dial-in different SPL's
(volume) for each set of speakers ~

As JohninCR has pointed out this is only a temporary measure... of course my universe
appears to me quite temporary as a functional principle... in my life there is no resolution...
merely a series of disconnected temporary phenomena that occasionally has the characteristics
of continuity... but this is a topic for another time ~

This little experiment will give you some idea what more bass will sound like. I am deeply
impressed with how the more opaque box speakers sound merges with the more transparent
sound of the B200's... to my ears it is a perfect blending... somehow it matches the way
live music sounds in real spaces... Deb and I attend live chamber work performances during
the summer... they are free in the Santa Barbara museum during July... so we have
a good reference for live sound in a space designed just for that scale of music (narrow stage
with the seats rising each row higher than the row in front) and the sound we are getting
here in our 1970's mobile home (put together by spit and a prayer) is incredibly faithful to
what we hear in live concert... a thrilling experience!!!!

If you do not currently own a pair of box speakers see if you can borrow a pair just to
perform this simple experiment... Dmason is using his Hemp speakers in this way and
found the sound "Fabulous" ~

It could very well be that the rise you are hearing in the upper frequency range may
be thoroughly integrated into the all-over gestalt of the musical space by the fleshing
out of the lower frequencies... sometimes upper frequency information is a bit spotlighted
by the lack of lower frequency information ~

Let us know how things unfold for you ~

Warm Regards ~ Richard ~

[scorpion]

Richard,

You are right, I do have some decent BR-speakers that I built for my Home Cinema. They are based on Fostex 166 units and could be complimentary to my OBs.
At least they are in the same efficiency league. Also I have chokes at hand to do the crossover job. In fact I would rate an OB with two B200s on the same solidly built baffle as a very good loudspeaker.

/Erling

[-Richard-]

Great Erling!!!! That is exciting!!!!

Go ahead and put them together and see how things sound... I have my box speakers
set up in the back of my panels facing side ways... since they are Bipoles they have drivers
in the front and back... I cannot begin to tell you, Erling how incredible the sound space
is between my OB's... entirely 3-D holographic real!!!! and the box speakers help the
B200's to load the room with a thoroughly saturated tonal immersion ~

I am sure you are quite adept at experimenting with positioning your drivers to fire
from different positions and hearing how the sound integrates with your room and
the B200's... I believe Dmason mentioned in his post that his hemps are firing forward ~

However, by positioning the box speakers behind the OB panels you may find that the sound
space between them becomes startling real and dimensional ~

Please let us know how things sound, Erling!!!!! I think you are in for an entirely new
and delightful musical dimension with your OB's!!!! Please give yourself time to adjust
to this new combined sound field... it took me a few hours to begin to hear how fantastic
and potent this combination is... with your tube amp you should be quite thrilled with
the results... you may find, as I do, that you do not even need to biamp... somehow the
box speakers integrate so perfectly that one amp may be all you need, hooking-up all the
speakers in parallel ~

The fact that you have Fostex speakers, which should be very fast, is entirely in your
favor for this working out beautifully ~

I have my boxes on the floor for bass reinforcement ~

I am very very interested in hearing your observations!!!

Warm Regards ~ Richard ~

[Wind Chaser]

This is amazing...

...the B200 is pretty much my all-time favorite, most musical, dynamic, open, organic sounding, easy-on-the-ears speaker driver I have come across. There are many who advise against it, based solely on technical impressions, yet the people who have actually made the effort to obtain them and use them have quite a different opinion. An opposite one, in fact...

That was clearly stated in the very beginning, right from the onset on page #1, the first of 1154 posts and counting... and here we are, some of us still hung up about a squiggly line .  My, talk about slow.

Has anyone noticed Dmason doesn't seem to post too much anymore?

I suspect it's out of complete frustration, maybe even sheer exasperation...

[Vinnie R.]

Hey guys,

This is a little bit off topic, but have you checked out the design of the Auditorium 23 Solovox OB speakers:
http://www.toneimports.com/auditorium23/a23Solovox.htm

http://www.sonicflare.com/_audio_a23solovox_images_side.jpg

Very unique design.  I can't help but wonder what the B200s would sound like in there   

[JeffB]

Saturday I ordered a pair of B200s.  I have been reluctant because I don't have room for a very wide baffle.  Curiosity finally got the better of me though.
I received notice that they shipped Sunday.

What size diameter hole do I need to cut?
Do I need to cut a perfect circle, or can I just use a compass to mark the circle and then use a jigsaw?

[Russell Dawkins]

Vinnie,
still a little off topic, but have you seen these variants?

http://www.auditorium-23.de/Welcome/Contents.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=237549&stamp=1063896174

[opnly bafld]

JeffB,
Welcome, you will enjoy the gravitational pull.
A compass and a jigsaw will work fine. Cutout is 7.44"

Lin

[Acudoc]

Hey guys,

This is a little bit off topic, but have you checked out the design of the Auditorium 23 Solovox OB speakers:
http://www.toneimports.com/auditorium23/a23Solovox.htm

http://www.sonicflare.com/_audio_a23solovox_images_side.jpg

Very unique design.  I can't help but wonder what the B200s would sound like in there   

Hi Vinnie,

I have had my eye on that design for some time.  Jules Coleman gave it a great review.  Can anyone shed some light on its design, e.g. the rear wave guide?  Dmason...?

I'm waiting for the new hemps before building my OB's.  The solovox seems like an excellent compromise between a box and an open baffle, with the potential to eliminate the shortcoming's of both designs.


What ever happened to the idea of an OB circle for those who are just jumping in and need direction?

John