The Bully Build Begins

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robwm

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Re: The Bully Build Begins
« Reply #140 on: 17 Jun 2025, 02:34 pm »
Those look pretty cool but my Rythmik amplifier mounts where these are positioned. GR Research has some smaller ones that I could mount on the front (or back). The picture below shows the emblem with the plastic coating on it. Hobbs sent this picture to me.




robwm

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Re: The Bully Build Begins
« Reply #141 on: 19 Jun 2025, 04:51 pm »
I laid the veneer down with no cutouts. Now I am reopening the cutouts. The cutouts are not done yet, but the right speaker is fully veneered now.
The left speaker is waiting for veneer at the moment.




JCarney

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Re: The Bully Build Begins
« Reply #142 on: 19 Jun 2025, 04:55 pm »
Looking good Rob, your patience is paying off.

JCarney

robwm

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Re: The Bully Build Begins
« Reply #143 on: 23 Jun 2025, 05:38 pm »
I was able to get all of the veneer installed this weekend. There are some minor defects that need wood putty to hide the issues. However, there will be no putty in any store that will match this color of this veneer. I'm going to need some homemade wood putty to conceal the issues properly. I need to apply teak oil to the repair, so it needs to be able to accept that without any real issues. The most common method sounds like I should combine veneer dust with a few drops of shellac for the best results. Does anyone have experience with this type of repair?

How do I address the edges of the veneer where it's showing? Will the application of teak oil resolve that?




Peter J

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Re: The Bully Build Begins
« Reply #144 on: 23 Jun 2025, 07:29 pm »
I avoid filler as much as possible. It rarely blends into surrounding wood and frequently stands out. Close photos would help. In industry, repairs are often accomplished mid-finish although that may not be relevant to your situation.

Is it the paper backing you're seeing at seams? Was veneer backing 10 or 20 mil? Oil will darken the paper but will do nothing to glue residue. Again photos would help.

BTW, "Teak Oil" is not what many people think. Teak is an oily wood, but teak oil is usually some blend of petroleum distillates, linseed oil or sometimes Tung oil. Marketing makes it seem as if it's somehow kin to Teak and it's not in my experience.  Perhaps better on your patio furniture or swim platform of your boat, I've never tried it as a speaker finish.

NIGHTFALL1970

Re: The Bully Build Begins
« Reply #145 on: 23 Jun 2025, 07:55 pm »
Those look awesome!!!👍

robwm

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Re: The Bully Build Begins
« Reply #146 on: 23 Jun 2025, 08:13 pm »
The edges are chewed up a little from using an edge band trimmer to do all of the trimming. I started using a trim router after I was about 45% complete with veneering (10 mil paper backed). I think it would be risky to sand away the veneer defects I'm thinking about. I have plenty of scrap material for testing too before I commit to any one process.

The veneer that I selected is UV sensitive and through some research, it seems teak oil offers some UV resistance. I finished a 6 x 6 sample, and I think it looks great! The sample below has two coats of teak oil and four coats of oil-based polyurethane. When that is fully cured, I will treat it with finishing wax. My work area is not dust free, so I am expecting an imperfect surface. The surface of the sample isn't smooth so the finishing wax will remove anything that settles on the surface.

Veneer edges - I'm pretty sure I have sanded away any paper backing or glue on the veneer edges. I will take another close look before I commit to the finishing process.




robwm

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Re: The Bully Build Begins
« Reply #147 on: 24 Jun 2025, 02:52 pm »
Has anyone tried using Zinnser Seal Coat and then General Finishes High Performance Water-Based Topcoat · Clear · Satin? Based on what I have read, these finishes could have less effect in deepening the color of the veneer. Ideally, I'd like to keep it as close to its natural color as possible. I got hung up on teak oil due to UV resistance properties but maybe that isn't really that important? My speakers will be indoors with maybe some direct sunlight coming in the windows.

Oil based polyurethane has been known to turn yellow or amber over time. I definitely don't want that happening. Water based polyurethane is said to remain clear and resists turning yellow over time.

Peter J

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Re: The Bully Build Begins
« Reply #148 on: 24 Jun 2025, 03:56 pm »
Has anyone tried using Zinnser Seal Coat and then General Finishes High Performance Water-Based Topcoat · Clear · Satin? Based on what I have read, these finishes could have less effect in deepening the color of the veneer. Ideally, I'd like to keep it as close to its natural color as possible. I got hung up on teak oil due to UV resistance properties but maybe that isn't really that important? My speakers will be indoors with maybe some direct sunlight coming in the windows.

Oil based polyurethane has been known to turn yellow or amber over time. I definitely don't want that happening. Water based polyurethane is said to remain clear and resists turning yellow over time.

Teak will darken with age anyway and ambering of oil or solvent based finishes enhances the warmth and creates a beautiful patina IMHO. Sealcoat is shellac and ambers with age, for sure. My beef with all water base clears that I've tried is the weird, not warm pallor that they impart, especially on darker woods. On Maple it can look good. Anything darker and it really sucks the warmth out of it in my experience. I think your sample looks great, but I sure would do same for any water base you're considering. FWIW, some WB clears add amber tint to try to replicate what happens naturally with oil finishes.

robwm

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Re: The Bully Build Begins
« Reply #149 on: 24 Jun 2025, 04:01 pm »
I could live with finishing the speakers like my sample, but I would like to try my best not to darken the color. I'm not even sure if this is possible. I mean, even if I touch the veneer with plain water, it darkens some.

fishboat

Re: The Bully Build Begins
« Reply #150 on: 24 Jun 2025, 06:59 pm »
Sealcoat and the General Finishes High Performance is a good combo.  Anything you put on the wood, whether it's a finish or mineral spirits will "darken" it.  Even a simple wax finish on bare wood will bring out the color "darken it" to some extent. Though simple wax doesn't offer any protection to speak of. 

Any polyurethane will add some yellow-ish/amber color over time, regardless if it's waterborne or solvent based. It's the nature of the beast.

If you want a water-white clear, non-yellowing finish then you'll need to look for an 100%  acrylic based product. Acrylics will also be UV resistant (UV won't break the coating finish, readily), but that is only in regard to the finish itself.  UV will bleach the wood color over time while the coating over the wood remains intact. If you want UV protection..cover the windows with a blind or install a UV blocking film on the glass.  One easily available 100% acrylic finish is Minwax Polycrylic.  In general, about every other Minwax product is..less than great. (their 2 part wood filler is fine for endgrain filling under paint).  I've used Polycrylic on occasion, on medium to lighter woods. Their satin version is easy to apply, pretty forgiving in application as it levels well, and typically looks good.   Waterbased lacquers are water white, but application may be more than you want to get into. 

There's also acrylic-urethane products available, which, again will add a little color, though not as much as a 100% urethane product.  GF High Performance is an acrylic-urethane.  Good stuff.

Some comments on Sealcoat.  Sealcoat is a 2-pound cut of shellac flakes.  That's a fairly high-solids cut.  Typically, shellac is used to heighten color and grain when applied over raw wood.  It's also a sealer..like when it's applied over wood knots to prevent tanin coming through a topcoat(paint).  When shellac is applied to raw wood, it's most often as a 1 pound cut. Shellac is dissolved in 95% pure ethanol (the remaining 5% is water and denaturants).  If you use Sealcoat, dilute it 1:1 with good ethanol.  A key point when using shellac.  It's pretty difficult to coat a broad wood surface when applying it with a brush.  The ethanol evaporates very quickly and if you don't keep a fast application pace and a wet edge, you'll get brush-edge overlaps.  And the more you try to fix them, the worse they get. Fortunately, this is reversable as you just take a rag wet with ethanol and wipe the shellac off. Of course, this can leave a uniform, light coat of shellac on the surface..which may not be a bad thing.  When I use shellac(often) I use spray equipment.  It's easy to spray a uniform coating, but you need spray equipment. Sealcoat (shellac) is sold in spray cans.  That may be a real option for you, Just don't spray it on too heavy or it'll sag.  It's best to practice on some cardboard to get a feel for it.   

Shellac is a  terrific product.  It's a universal conversion coating. If you want to use an oil based stain and water based topcoat..put a coat of shellac between the stain and the topcoat and it'll work. Want to glaze a piece once you've applied dye..put a coat of shellac on the dyed wood to seal it,  You can then apply any glaze (or gel stain), wipe off as much as you want without impacting the base, dyed or stained, wood.

The are few, to no materials you can apply to raw wood to better bring out the color and/or grain than shellac.  Oils will do the same, but not as well as shellac.   Shellac also comes in many different colors, but that's a whole other topic.  Sealcoat is blonde-dewaxed.

So, what to do?  Shellac and High Performance should work well, but I'd spray the shellac on.  And practice your whole finish plan technique before you dive into the real thing.  It's better to burn up some material in practicing than wish you'd done that after your project is messed up.

(..and the apply shellac and sand when wet technique does work to fill in imperfections in the right cases.  Not sure about fixing edges of veneer..practice first. )

fishboat

Re: The Bully Build Begins
« Reply #151 on: 24 Jun 2025, 07:18 pm »
One more thought.  There are film-forming finishes (like Polycrylic of GF High Performance) and more oil based finishes that sink into the wood.  The latter looks and feels like the wood surface itself.  Film forming finishes look much like your sample above,  It looks very nice, but you can see that there's a film that is sitting on top of the wood surface. Which you prefer is personal choice.

One option that is simple to apply, provides excellent protection(water, mustard, ketchup..it's used on dining tables among other things) is General Finishes Arm-R-Seal. It's a air-dry-cure oil-urethane wipe-on finish.  I've used this for many years.  It's easier to apply if you dilute it about 10-15% with mineral spirits.  Wipe it on raw wood with a lint free rag (or blue shop towel). It's forgiving to apply.  Comes in gloss and satin.  Use 3-4 coats. Drys fast.  I typically get two coats a day on. It doesn't look like a heavy film forming finish when done.

Put the left over finish in a full jar container (no air) or one of those "Stop Loss"  bags (use the cheap "smuggle booze in board cruise ships" pouches, they work fine) or the finish will set up in a partially filled can and you'll lose it.  It's too pricey to lose.

Using GF Arm-R-Seal avoids shellac and a film forming finish.  You'll have all the protection you need. Easy to apply. Buff the final well dried coat with 0000 steel wool and wood-wax and it'll feel like velvet while looking great.

robwm

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Re: The Bully Build Begins
« Reply #152 on: 24 Jun 2025, 07:19 pm »
fishboat,

That was some really good information! It sounds like shellac is quite a bit of extra work. I do like the spray on idea since brushing it can be challenging.

For now, I was not able to source the SealCoat locally but I'm sure I'll find it eventually. I was able to find the GF High Performance poly. I'm going to try this poly alone on a sample to see what that looks like. Maybe I don't need the shellac?

Thank you,
Rob

NXSTUDIO-DRUMMER

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Re: The Bully Build Begins
« Reply #153 on: 24 Jun 2025, 07:32 pm »


For now, I was not able to source the SealCoat locally but I'm sure I'll find it eventually. I was able to find the GF High Performance poly. I'm going to try this poly alone on a sample to see what that looks like. Maybe I don't need the shellac?



Amazon offers General Finishes Products










fishboat

Re: The Bully Build Begins
« Reply #155 on: 24 Jun 2025, 08:15 pm »
..and one more of nearly an infinite number of options. 

"Hard wax oils"..though that's more of a marketing term than a description of the contents.

Rubio Monocoat is a good example.  All kinds of colors available and natural. Two-pack finish that offers great protection. Easy, super forgiving application. One coat and your done. Easy to repair scuffs later on.  It's a holy-grail type finish. Not inexpensive, but a little goes a long way.  Shouldn't color with age, though the wood will change. And it's an in the wood finish rather than on top of the wood type.   

robwm

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Re: The Bully Build Begins
« Reply #156 on: 24 Jun 2025, 08:57 pm »
The spray shellac looks like it might have wax. It doesn't say it's wax free anywhere. I'm pretty sure that will cause adhesion issues for the polyurethane.

fishboat

Re: The Bully Build Begins
« Reply #157 on: 24 Jun 2025, 09:55 pm »
Good catch!  I thought it was dewaxed, it isn't.  I've heard guys say that they never had a problem applying topcoats on shellac that isn't dewaxed, but I've never gone there.  With my luck, I'd have an issue and backing up isn't fun.

If you don't have a lot of finishing experience(it's a long and never-ending climb) then the GF Arm-R-Seal or Rubio Monocoat is the path I'd take.  Near fool-proof easy application & repairable.  Rubio would be the easiest and they sell small quantities so it wouldn't cost much.  A little of this stuff goes a long way.

https://www.rubiomonocoatusa.com/collections/oil-plus-2c

robwm

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Re: The Bully Build Begins
« Reply #158 on: 25 Jun 2025, 04:32 pm »
Here are some samples in a side by side comparison. The sample on the left is 3 coats of General Finishes High Performance Water-Based Topcoat · Clear · Satin polyurethane only. The sample on the right has two coats of teak oil and 4 coats of oil-based poly.

I like it better with the poly only. It is really close to its natural look. I am going to skip using shellac and use only polyurethane to avoid darkening the wood. Will this method work out alright?




fishboat

Re: The Bully Build Begins
« Reply #159 on: 25 Jun 2025, 06:39 pm »
High Performance over raw wood is fine.  The only caveat..as Peter mentioned above, teak wood is considered an oily wood.  When folks build with solid teak they'll generally wipe down the surface with a rag wetted with acetone, wiping once and only in one direction.  New surface then use a clean rag/acetone and wipe once and only in one direction.  Then they'll apply glue for joints or apply finish.  With an oil based finish it's probably not as important, but for water based glue (Titebond) and waterborne finishes..it may not be a bad idea.  I've never worked with teak veneer.  If I were to guess, I'd imagine any oil in the wood has been processed out.  But..I've never worked with teak veneer, so..I don't know.

This is where the shellac comes in handy as any oil in the teak would be sealed by the shellac and a waterbased finish will then stick to shellac like glue. 

As for your test results..yes, the one on the right should look much darker.  You've put a lot of teak oil into the wood and followed it with a oil-based polyurethane finish.  The "oil based" isn't exactly true, it's marketing jargon. (I'm a retired polymer chemist)  It's more accurately a polyurethane resin dissolved in a solvent.  I'd guess your polyurethane finish is about 60-ish% solids (polymer resin) and about 40% solvent.  So..when you apply it you have 40% solvent  diving into the wood only to slowing evaporate out over time.   That's a lot of liquid (teak oil and solvent) in the wood, It'll look dark.

Teak oil..with due respect..it isn't anything. I've heard of some sort of teak oil sold buy Scandinavian furniture sellers to maintain teak wood, but I've never heard of it in relation to woodworkers finishing their work(at least not in the more modern era).  You can just apply an oil (a drying, curing oil like linseed or any non-drying/curing oil as long as it doesn't get rancid as it'll gum up at that point) to a project, or just wax, and it'll look fine.  There will be no protection, but it'll look good. Teak oil and UV protection..I wouldn't bank on it.  UV protection in a finish is more complicated than that (google HALS additives, hindered amine light stabilizers).  There has been a product in recent years that is supposed to protect wood outdoors (lots of UV) pretty well, but any finish that gives good UV protection has been a search for a holy grail type thing forever.  Boats having lots of teak (aka brightwork) can be maintained to look like your veneer, but, as is said in the Caribbean, de coat, de month.  To keep brightwork looking great, give it a light sanding and a fresh coat of spar varnish every month.

The only way to protect your interior from UV is to treat the windows.  My home faces east and west with good sized windows on each side.  It's great having natural light in the house, but that UV coming in will eat fabric, leather, wood table color unless  you either protect the furniture (cover it) or treat the windows with a UV blocking film.   

One thought I forgot to mention above..if you use any type of shop towel or rag and an oil finish, toss the rags outside on the ground for a couple days before throwing them away.  They will start a fire if left wadded up in a waste bin in your shop/garage..

Here's a good video on the topic.  The contents would indicate it's closer to when an oil-finish-rag starts a fire than if an oil-finish-rag starts a fire.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gqi2cNCKQY