[NoahH]

As someone who once argued that Danny should listen to some of the newer DSP versions and then discovered how badly my DSP device was harming the sound, I will once more apologize to Danny for having doubted him on that front. 

[david45]

In my case, I just try to keep an open mind as much as I can. I don’t doubt HAL has a great product (as well as a few others) and it’s only going to get better. Old school vs new school? I’d say both approaches have their merits. 

[Montreal_Jazz]

Any development on the Line force? I kinda saw very quickly, in a video where Jay Iyagi visiting, a prototype of the new line force. Radian transducers? I'm pretty anxious to press the buy button and start building it! I have I bought the Italian walnut burl veneer already!    Keep me posted! Cheers and thanks in advance.

[Hobbsmeerkat]

Any development on the Line force? I kinda saw very quickly, in a video where Jay Iyagi visiting, a prototype of the new line force. Radian transducers? I'm pretty anxious to press the buy button and start building it! I have I bought the Italian walnut burl veneer already!    Keep me posted! Cheers and thanks in advance.

That's not a prototype, or a new model.
That's a line force being used for a customer that will be using the GRS 10" mids, they aren't nearly as well behaved as the old BG units.

The line force is pretty much stuck on the back burner for now, we may pursue a new version in the future using the Radian drivers, but the cabinet will need to be redesigned to fit those drivers, as well as custom drivers, to keep the impedance load balanced.

We've got other projects we need to work on first, especially considering how expensive these will end up being, and will require a lot of development costs.

[Tyson]

On a positive note, I'm in the process of building out a pair of Line Force's for myself.  Can't wait to get it all up and running.  Woot!   

[emailtim]

As someone who once argued that Danny should listen to some of the newer DSP versions and then discovered how badly my DSP device was harming the sound, I will once more apologize to Danny for having doubted him on that front. 

What DSP were you using ? 

FWIW, virtually all production music uses digital mixing and post processing.

[jmimac351]

   
But..... where does it end,Tyson?

SpEaKeRs R FuN.  The more better the speakers, the more better...

[NoahH]

What DSP were you using ? 

FWIW, virtually all production music uses digital mixing and post processing.

MiniDSP SHD. I fully believe that some of the really, really, really good gear could do a lot better on it, but I am talking Theoretica and such.

As for mixing and such, there are a lot of issues with that as an argument.
1. Some of the really best recordings don't have it, but that is a very limited volume. Ex Octave's stuff and DSD from old tapes
2. Mixing and DSP are very different. Level mixing is simple. Parametric equalization is sometimes used in mixing but means the recordings had issues. Parametric timing changes are not done much at all in mixing. The latter two are in DSP, and are very complex and easy to screw up.
3. All the digital manipulation everywhere in the chain tends to introduce errors, and it adds up. I think a good analogy is freezing stuff. Sure - the fish you buy at the store has often been frozen before. But that does not mean that freezing it again at home and thawing it again is not going to make it worse.

[HAL]

You might want to look at the Danville Signal dspNexus 2x8 system for DSP processor and crossover.

Danny and Scott heard it at LSAF2023 and both smiled. 

I already did a Line Force DSP crossover for them with the original dspMusik 2x8 system that Danny heard and gave ideas for improvements.  The dspNexus 2x8 with AK4499EX DAC's sounds better than its older brother dspMusik.

They are great sounding speakers!

[mlundy57]

You might want to look at the Danville Signal dspNexus 2x8 system for DSP processor and crossover.

Danny and Scott heard it at LSAF2023 and both smiled. 

I already did a Line Force DSP crossover for them with the original dspMusik 2x8 system that Danny heard and gave ideas for improvements.  The dspNexus 2x8 with AK4499EX DAC's sounds better than its older brother dspMusik.

They are great sounding speakers!

+1 I heard it at LSAF 2023 also. If I had room for another full system This would be in it.

[mlundy57]

But..... where does it end,Tyson?

While I have to admit, I can't imagine topping the Line Force, it is said the largest room in the world is the room for improvement and who knows what driver technology will come up with next 

[Tyson]

So you are building a set of Line Force's??   They are amazing.   
But..... where does it end,Tyson?

For my tastes, the Line Forces are the best I've heard.  By a lot.  I think there's nothing higher out there at this point.  So I think it ends here.  My only real question is do I go with all Miflex caps from the start?  Or start with a more modest crossover and change it over to Miflex after some time.  I'm leaning toward the latter option because it's more fun to experiment.

I am converting my Super 7's into the Line Force, so I get to re-use the Neo10 midrange drivers from my current speakers.  And I can re-use the Double Trouble OB sub drivers and amps.  For the Line Force I just needed new cabinets, a few new crossover parts and some new sub cabinets.  Oh, and tweeters.  Lots of tweeters.  32 in total.  Insanity.

If anyone is interested in building out their own pair of Super 7's, I am going to put my cabinets up for sale.  I'd love to see them go to a good home.

[emailtim]

MiniDSP SHD. I fully believe that some of the really, really, really good gear could do a lot better on it, but I am talking Theoretica and such.

As for mixing and such, there are a lot of issues with that as an argument.
1. Some of the really best recordings don't have it, but that is a very limited volume. Ex Octave's stuff and DSD from old tapes
2. Mixing and DSP are very different. Level mixing is simple. Parametric equalization is sometimes used in mixing but means the recordings had issues. Parametric timing changes are not done much at all in mixing. The latter two are in DSP, and are very complex and easy to screw up.
3. All the digital manipulation everywhere in the chain tends to introduce errors, and it adds up. I think a good analogy is freezing stuff. Sure - the fish you buy at the store has often been frozen before. But that does not mean that freezing it again at home and thawing it again is not going to make it worse.

You mentioned things can add up.  I agree and also stipulate they add up quicker when done in a haphazard way.

Math and processing has come a long way.  Math does not suffer from parts tolerance variances and age degradation.

Math and processing potential improves with age as history has proven.

I experimented with math and have a few examples below.

The best measuring DAC today is @ 130dB so to drive that DAC to its potential you need something cleaner than its maximum potential.

DSP can be done today in 16, 32, 64 and 128-bit, yet many tools chose lower precision math.

Here are some examples that I have tested:

Here are 4 FIR XO's processed in 32-bit ( 16-bit has a higher noise floor than -130dB so is already under-performing the DAC )



Note the noise floor of -140dB.  Just marginally better than the best contemporary DAC.

Here are the same 4 FIR XO's processed in 64-bit.



Note we are now down to @ -240dB, surpassing the best contemporary DAC's capability.

Now look at the same 4 FIR XO's processed in 128-bit.



Note we have now exceeded the precision of the display tool.

It is possible with today's tools to do all the math and convolution in 128 and 64-bit until the DAC's doorstep.

I would suggest the difference between good and poor DSP performance today is the choice and consistency of the filter and processing chain (using your favorite DAC du jour).

I have found some software tools to cut corners, thus avoid them accordingly in favor of ones that do not.

[corndog71]

I was just going to ask if you were going to cannibalize your 7’s.  I’m terribly envious but look forward to your progress. 

[Early B.]

My only real question is do I go with all Miflex caps from the start?

Of course!!! And they're on sale right now, so go for it!

[Jaytor]

On a positive note, I'm in the process of building out a pair of Line Force's for myself.  Can't wait to get it all up and running.  Woot!   

That's great!  Did you find enough BG Neo10s or are you going to use the GRS or Radian drivers.

[soundofrockets]

Same question as above?

[Tyson]

I was just going to ask if you were going to cannibalize your 7’s.  I’m terribly envious but look forward to your progress. 

Thanks!

Of course!!! And they're on sale right now, so go for it!

You are a bad influence 

That's great!  Did you find enough BG Neo10s or are you going to use the GRS or Radian drivers.

I found 4 of the Neo10's on eBay a few months ago, exactly the amount I needed.  Shockingly they were only $300 each so I jumped on it immediately.  Now that I think back, I bought the drivers before I even knew if I could get the Line Force cabinets made.  Just took a gamble.  Luckily it paid off!

[Tyson]

Also I should give a shout out to Jay for working with me on the cabinets. 

I have space limitations so I did some brainstorming with Jay and we came up with a custom design that will allow the Line Forces to fit in my space. 

[Danny Richie]

You mentioned things can add up.  I agree and also stipulate they add up quicker when done in a haphazard way.

Math and processing has come a long way.  Math does not suffer from parts tolerance variances and age degradation.

Math and processing potential improves with age as history has proven.

I experimented with math and have a few examples below.

The best measuring DAC today is @ 130dB so to drive that DAC to its potential you need something cleaner than its maximum potential.

DSP can be done today in 16, 32, 64 and 128-bit, yet many tools chose lower precision math.

Here are some examples that I have tested:

Here are 4 FIR XO's processed in 32-bit ( 16-bit has a higher noise floor than -130dB so is already under-performing the DAC )

Note the noise floor of -140dB.  Just marginally better than the best contemporary DAC.

Here are the same 4 FIR XO's processed in 64-bit.

Note we are now down to @ -240dB, surpassing the best contemporary DAC's capability.

Now look at the same 4 FIR XO's processed in 128-bit.

Note we have now exceeded the precision of the display tool.

It is possible with today's tools to do all the math and convolution in 128 and 64-bit until the DAC's doorstep.

I would suggest the difference between good and poor DSP performance today is the choice and consistency of the filter and processing chain (using your favorite DAC du jour).

I have found some software tools to cut corners, thus avoid them accordingly in favor of ones that do not.

It sure would be nice if it were just about the numbers.