[abomwell]

It's likely the suck out is boundary interference known as the Allison Affect. The rule of thumb is to not put the speaker, in this case the middle driver, at the same distance (or in multiples of that distance) from the floor, front wall or sidewall. The suck out will be heard anywhere you sit in the room. An ideal formula to avoid this that I read is, measuring from the center of the middle speaker, the shortest distance to a boundary (likely the floor) multiplied times the longest distance (likely the front wall) should equal the middle distance (likely the sidewall) squared. Give it a try if you can.

[Desertpilot]

It's likely the suck out is boundary interference known as the Allison Affect.

Thanks Al,

I did not try moving the speakers left or right.  I should try this.  As I look over the measurement and knowing the subwoofers are crossed over at 90 Hz, the drop from 100 Hz to about 130 Hz is all mid-range driver.  My speakers are back on sliders so I can get the additional measurement done when I get some time.

What is weird to me is that I have truly loved the sound the speakers are producing.  I never once felt I was missing anything, two channel Stereo or five channel Surround.  In fact, the wide soundstage and depth is so good I am thrilled.  I've never experienced having my speakers disappear and an entire orchestra behind them.  I'm striving for + or - 5 dB all across the spectrum.

Marcus

[abomwell]

Yes, it is the midrange driver that will likely benefit most by getting the boundary ratios better. Most people never notice the suck out between 1-3Hz until it is restored. That's the power range of the orchestra, where the trombones and cellos live.

[Tyson]

Thanks Al,

I did not try moving the speakers left or right.  I should try this.  As I look over the measurement and knowing the subwoofers are crossed over at 90 Hz, the drop from 100 Hz to about 130 Hz is all mid-range driver.  My speakers are back on sliders so I can get the additional measurement done when I get some time.

What is weird to me is that I have truly loved the sound the speakers are producing.  I never once felt I was missing anything, two channel Stereo or five channel Surround.  In fact, the wide soundstage and depth is so good I am thrilled.  I've never experienced having my speakers disappear and an entire orchestra behind them.  I'm striving for + or - 5 dB all across the spectrum.

Marcus

This is precisely the danger with measurements.  1 week ago you absolutely loved the speaker and had deep emotional connection to the music.  Now, after doing nothing but measuring them, you probably feel that your setup is lacking somehow.  It's a very slippery slope, one that I myself have fallen into many times. 

My advice?  Do some experiments with placement and get a good EQ to deal with the bass peaks, and then forget about the measurements completely.  Fussing about them over the long term is only a prescription for unhappiness and dissatisfaction. 

[Desertpilot]

This is precisely the danger with measurements.  1 week ago you absolutely loved the speaker and had deep emotional connection to the music.  Now, after doing nothing but measuring them, you probably feel that your setup is lacking somehow.  It's a very slippery slope, one that I myself have fallen into many times. 

My advice?  Do some experiments with placement and get a good EQ to deal with the bass peaks, and then forget about the measurements completely.  Fussing about them over the long term is only a prescription for unhappiness and dissatisfaction.

I get it.  And thank you Tyson for all the valuable insights you have given me since I began this adventure.  I didn't mean to use the past tense, loved, in my description above.  I still love them.  In fact, playing music this morning was a joy.  Hahaha!  "Fussing...?"  Who the heck is swapping out his X3 crossovers?  I'm just playing with you.  I'm sure the change will be awesome.  I'll do just a bit more fiddling.  But, really, the speakers are back in their original location.  Only bass volume has changed.

I'll be 71 years old very soon.  I've never been this involved in the hobby.  The results, so far, are tremendous and gratifying.  If Covid ever goes away, I'd love to come visit you and hear your system.

Marcus

Edit:  My choice of the X3s is still a great decision.  No regrets.

[Saturn94]

This is precisely the danger with measurements.  1 week ago you absolutely loved the speaker and had deep emotional connection to the music.  Now, after doing nothing but measuring them, you probably feel that your setup is lacking somehow.  It's a very slippery slope, one that I myself have fallen into many times. 

My advice?  Do some experiments with placement and get a good EQ to deal with the bass peaks, and then forget about the measurements completely.  Fussing about them over the long term is only a prescription for unhappiness and dissatisfaction.

Agreed. 

(I’ve been there as well ☺️ )

[Tangram]

Thanks for circling back with additional measurements Marcus. How does the new waterfall plot look?
In the interest of full disclosure, here are my awful looking plots. The FR is horrific, waterfall not as bad. As you can see, I have a couple of major issues. The first is the 40Hz peak (probably room resonating frequency). The second is a 200Hz suckout. Fortunately it is short-lived.
So my issues are even worse than yours. Since I have M3 Sapphires and I'm not running subs, there isn't much I can do. The speakers are actually in a better location than before (the bass peak was even worse) and I have about all the treatments I have room for in the room. But the good news is that, just like you, I love the sound. I do have a little Schitt Lokius on order that may help but they are so backordered that it could still be a while before I receive it.

Cheers,

Dave

[Tyson]

The thing to keep in mind is that this is the sound of the room.  No matter what speakers you put in there, you'll end up with the same graph.  Because it's not the speakers, it's the room.  Actually that's not quite true.  Because if you put a box speaker in that room, it'll measure even worse. 

I get it.  And thank you Tyson for all the valuable insights you have given me since I began this adventure.  I didn't mean to use the past tense, loved, in my description above.  I still love them.  In fact, playing music this morning was a joy.  Hahaha!  "Fussing...?"  Who the heck is swapping out his X3 crossovers? 

Haha, guilty as charged   

  If Covid ever goes away, I'd love to come visit you and hear your system.

Marcus

Heck yeah, you're more than welcome.   

[Desertpilot]

Final.

This morning, I completed more measurements moving speakers side to side and adjusting the subwoofer control.  All results were marginally better or marginally worse.  In other words, my original speaker locations and adding subwoofer volume adjustment gave me the best results (see previous graph).  What to do?  Nothing.  I already have several GIK panels, plenty of thick curtains and carpet w/pad.  My room has no echo.  Conversations are fine.  It is so large, there is no sense it is a dead room.  Now I need time to recover from this exercise and simply enjoy music.

I have a limited budget as a retiree.  Over the next year, I will continue buying high resolution, multi channel, music downloads.  I have Qobuz but mostly use it to test albums I am considering for purchase or jazz titles in CD quality.  I use JRiver as my music player.  Works the best for me, especially with my DAC.  I have ROON but it won't play nice and I don't see the value so I will likely cancel it.  I am also going to build a music server to replace my laptop.

I did see an audiologist a few years ago.  My high frequency hearing was good (especially for my age).  But low frequency hearing had issues.  Audiologist told me that my low frequency issues are likely congenital (inherited).  Maybe that's why I didn't mind loud low frequencies.  I think it's worth it to get a hearing check periodically.

So here I am, right back where I started.  I love the X3s music reproduction where I originally placed them by ear.  Was this exercise a waste of time?  Nope.  Sometimes you just have to know how your room is affecting frequency response.  I still think I have a great room for both music and home theater (I just received the new DUNE 4K/HDR disc.  We watched it last night and the Dolby ATMOS soundtrack was extraordinary.  The X3s subwoofers got quite a workout.).

Thanks to everyone who responded.  I learned a lot.  The responses were certainly passionate.

Marcus

[dpatters]

Enjoy the music and your retirement. We retired in 2016 and couldn’t be happier.

Don P.

[Early B.]

Final. ...

Thanks to everyone who responded.  I learned a lot.  The responses were certainly passionate.

You wanna know what I think the biggest takeaway is? -- the extensive measurements confirmed that you can trust your ears.  

[Desertpilot]

Enjoy the music and your retirement. We retired in 2016 and couldn’t be happier.

Don P.

Hi Don.  Thank you.  I ask my wife almost every day, "Did you know I love retirement?"  She smiles.

[Desertpilot]

You wanna know what I think the biggest takeaway is? -- the extensive measurements confirmed that you can trust your ears.

I like the way you think.  ...and I agree.

[Tyson]

Glad you made it back to sanity after the measurement 'adventure'. 

OK, here's a tweak you can make to your X3's sound better and it's completely free.  Take the speaker grills off.  They are just friction fitted, and removing them allows for notably more detail to come through from the midrange (and bass, but less in the bass than the mids).  Plus the speaker looks cooler with the speaker grills removed, IMO.

[Desertpilot]

Glad you made it back to sanity after the measurement 'adventure'. 

Haha!  "Marcus, come back from the dark side of the force."

Dust covers.  Two problems here.  My wife hates it when I remove dust covers.  Plus, we have 4 dachshunds, one of whom loves pushing his ball under each speaker and racing behind the speaker to fetch it.  Occasionally, the power cord is a casualty.  But, I am always up at 4AM (a leftover from my 20 years in the USAF).  So, I will try removing the dust covers when everyone (including the dogs) is asleep.

Something else that I have been very lazy about, lowering the noise floor.  My system is in our "great room".  If I turn off the HVAC, fridge/freezer and wine cooler, the noise level drops significantly.  I should do this each morning when I am the only one awake (until about 7AM).  That gives me three hours of listening.  Luckily, the X3s sound great at low volume levels.

[geerock]

Haha!  "Marcus, come back from the dark side of the force."

Dust covers.  Two problems here.  My wife hates it when I remove dust covers.  Plus, we have 4 dachshunds, one of whom loves pushing his ball under each speaker and racing behind the speaker to fetch it.  Occasionally, the power cord is a casualty.  But, I am always up at 4AM (a leftover from my 20 years in the USAF).  So, I will try removing the dust covers when everyone (including the dogs) is asleep.

There's no doubt that removing the grills from the speakers removes a bit of a veil from the sound.  The difference is immediately obvious and positive.

[Desertpilot]

Some final thoughts.

Since my speakers are back on sliders, I moved them close to my front wall, yesterday, so I could take advantage and do some serious carpet cleaning.  I went ahead and listened to both orchestra and solo piano pieces.  Terrible loss of soundstage and depth.  The X3s are great no matter where you place them, but this morning I slid them back out to five feet from my front wall and removed the sliders.

REW encouraged me to lower sub volume.  But, I felt the sound was thin.  So, I increased the sub volume level from three ticks off max to two ticks (previously I had them at one tick down from max volume).  This seems more reasonable to me (likely my low frequency hearing issues).  One thing to note, very slight volume control changes produce BIG actual volume levels.

I have truly enjoyed becoming an active member of AC Spatial Audio.  But, I feel as if I am at the end of my journey.  The only equipment change will be a new music server.  Otherwise, I am very happy with my speakers, DAC and amplifier.  I am continuing to purchase high resolution multi channel downloads and I will continue to add music to my demo worthy classical music thread.

Thanks
Marcus

[Saturn94]

Final.

This morning, I completed more measurements moving speakers side to side and adjusting the subwoofer control.  All results were marginally better or marginally worse.  In other words, my original speaker locations and adding subwoofer volume adjustment gave me the best results (see previous graph).  What to do?  Nothing.  I already have several GIK panels, plenty of thick curtains and carpet w/pad.  My room has no echo.  Conversations are fine.  It is so large, there is no sense it is a dead room.  Now I need time to recover from this exercise and simply enjoy music.

I have a limited budget as a retiree.  Over the next year, I will continue buying high resolution, multi channel, music downloads.  I have Qobuz but mostly use it to test albums I am considering for purchase or jazz titles in CD quality.  I use JRiver as my music player.  Works the best for me, especially with my DAC.  I have ROON but it won't play nice and I don't see the value so I will likely cancel it.  I am also going to build a music server to replace my laptop.

I did see an audiologist a few years ago.  My high frequency hearing was good (especially for my age).  But low frequency hearing had issues.  Audiologist told me that my low frequency issues are likely congenital (inherited).  Maybe that's why I didn't mind loud low frequencies.  I think it's worth it to get a hearing check periodically.

So here I am, right back where I started.  I love the X3s music reproduction where I originally placed them by ear.  Was this exercise a waste of time?  Nope.  Sometimes you just have to know how your room is affecting frequency response.  I still think I have a great room for both music and home theater (I just received the new DUNE 4K/HDR disc.  We watched it last night and the Dolby ATMOS soundtrack was extraordinary.  The X3s subwoofers got quite a workout.).

Thanks to everyone who responded.  I learned a lot.  The responses were certainly passionate.

Marcus

Your experience sounds a lot like mine. 👍

[sarora9]

Some final thoughts.

Since my speakers are back on sliders, I moved them close to my front wall, yesterday, so I could take advantage and do some serious carpet cleaning.  I went ahead and listened to both orchestra and solo piano pieces.  Terrible loss of soundstage and depth.  The X3s are great no matter where you place them, but this morning I slid them back out to five feet from my front wall and removed the sliders.

REW encouraged me to lower sub volume.  But, I felt the sound was thin.  So, I increased the sub volume level from three ticks off max to two ticks (previously I had them at one tick down from max volume).  This seems more reasonable to me (likely my low frequency hearing issues).  One thing to note, very slight volume control changes produce BIG actual volume levels.

I have truly enjoyed becoming an active member of AC Spatial Audio.  But, I feel as if I am at the end of my journey.  The only equipment change will be a new music server.  Otherwise, I am very happy with my speakers, DAC and amplifier.  I am continuing to purchase high resolution multi channel downloads and I will continue to add music to my demo worthy classical music thread.

Thanks
Marcus

Desertpilot, I acquired my X3's in early 2020 (a bit earlier than you). I have followed your threads with interest. I just wanted to report that I recently build a DIY AC conditioner (Folsom's FO-Felix https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/gb-round-8-fo-felix-ac-filter.374027/) for my system and it had a very noticeable impact on the sound. Realism went to another level.

I had tried other power supplies (a Furman with linear filtering, a Torus ToT) before and they didn't appear to make much of a difference.  But people on this forum know Folsom is a very good designer.

ps: Folsom's DIY power amp ---which somebody was nice enough to build for me --is amazing too.

[Desertpilot]

Okay, I lied about no more posts from me (LOL).  After I repositioned my speakers to their original location, I did not put back my bass traps, one behind each speaker (2x2 GIK monster bass trap with range limiter).  REW showed no difference with or without them.  After a few days, I decided to put them back in place.  Listening again, there was a noticeable increase in instrument clarity and depth.  How can this be?  I don't know.  Maybe subwoofer SBIR was clouding the music.  But, whatever the reason, I am very pleased with the sound.

Positioning:
-- Left edge of left speaker 20 inches from left side wall (exceeds the minimum 18 inches for side cancellation).
-- Left & Right speakers about 66 inches from the front of the baffle to the front wall.  No toe-in.
-- Center speaker 52 inches from the front of the baffle to the front wall.
-- Left & right speakers are 9 feet apart, center of baffle to center of baffle.
-- All three speakers are equidistant, 10 feet 7 inches, to the MLP.

You will also notice two GIK 2 inch thick absorber panels flanking the listening area (one along each side).  They were stored in a closet, not used, so I decided to use them.  Can't hurt having them there.

Marcus