[PeterKK]

Hi all,

This is one thought/observation I wanted to get perspective one. When dealing with “difficult” to reproduce music (eg symphonic classical), where a single driver needs to cope with playing higher and lower frequencies at the same time, is it fair to say that at lower volumes the driver can do that more easily (as the cone doesn’t have to stretch so much) vs a higher volume where the cone stretches while reproducing a number of different frequencies? Again, I’m not arguing that single-drivers can’t play loud (they can), I’m saying whether when they are playing very demanding material a lower volume actually is easier and can deliver a better result.

Thanks for your thoughts!

[JLM]

Lots of "hand waving" in your inquiry.  Extended range drivers provide wonderful coherence (image specificity and soundstage resolution) due to lack of a crossover and different drivers being used (even if of the same type or coaxially located), but they have the toughest job in audio to try accurately producing the full human frequency range at a wide range of volumes or spls (sound pressure levels).  Naturally they make for excellent extended midrange drivers - I run 8 inch whizzerless extended range drivers, rated 30-20,000 Hz with subwoofers and ambience tweeters. 

In theory drivers operating within their intended design parameters shouldn't "stretch" (or flex), the ideal is pure pistonic action.  Any flexing produces distortions.  Extended range drivers tend to have quite limited specified "X max" (maximum rated travel) which would limit ultimate bass output prior to distorting.  Generally speaking any driver performs better at low spls.  Note that at extreme spls thermal compression limits performance too, which is why many top end speakers use professional sound reinforcement woofers and horn loaded tweeters. 

"Loud" is another subjective adjective, suggest getting a spl meter or smart phone application.  Most audiophiles I know do critical listening an average of about 80 dB.  Orchestral/symphonic and jazz peaks at 105 dB, rock at roughly 110 dB.  Realize that power (wattage) is in a logarithmic relationship to spls (dB).  So wattage goes by a factor of 10 for every 10 dB increase which translates into 300 times the wattage to reach 105 dB and 1,000 times the power to reach 110 dB from a reference 80 dB level.  Of course music is a series of peaks, classical about 30 dB, jazz about 20 dB, rock about 10 dB, so you can understand the strain drivers are under at higher spls.

[FullRangeMan]

Do single-driver speakers sound better in lower volumes?
Probably yes, large orchestral music needs big cone FR drivers.
If you want hi SPL from a FR driver you can use a pro-audio driver, Iam not at par the latest releases in that area but this an example below, one good Ferrite 12'' FR drivers for the job, put the shame many Hi-Fi FR drivers. Other option for large orchestral music are big cone 15'' FR drivers as Lii F15 or AN Super15Ferrite in a big BR box.
https://www.beyma.com/en/products/c/full-range/112GA508/altavoz-12ga50-8-oh/
Power capacity 250 W AES
Program power 500 W
Sensitivity 102 dB 1 W @ 1m @ 2π
Frequency range 70-18000 Hz
QTS 1.16

[PeterKK]

Lots of "hand waving" in your inquiry.  Extended range drivers provide wonderful coherence (image specificity and soundstage resolution) due to lack of a crossover and different drivers being used (even if of the same type or coaxially located), but they have the toughest job in audio to try accurately producing the full human frequency range at a wide range of volumes or spls (sound pressure levels).  Naturally they make for excellent extended midrange drivers - I run 8 inch whizzerless extended range drivers, rated 30-20,000 Hz with subwoofers and ambience tweeters. 

Thanks a lot for your reply. I’m really taken with single driver speakers: the experience I’m getting is ahead of anything I’ve experienced with multi-drivers and their benefits far outweight their shortcoming. I think as you say 80db is more than sufficient for most things, a lot of times what I find myself doing is increasing the volume to augment for lower bass output (I’ve also worked with speaker placement and near field listening which I felt helped). I’ve also gotten a subwoofer but I’m a bit skeptical about using it as I’m afraid of losing some of the immediacy and purity of the sound I’m getting (and in a way I feel it goes against the very principle of single drivers. Do you feel that subwoofer is a good way for supporting the low end without jeopardizing sound quality? Any perspective/thoughts much appreciated!

[PeterKK]

Do single-driver speakers sound better in lower volumes?
Probably yes, large orchestral music needs big cone FR drivers.

That’s really interesting: so you feel that bigger drivers is the way to go for classical music. I have gone a bit on a different direction: from the beginning I liked the “speed” of smaller drivers, so stayed away from bigger drivers. I had auditioned some larger single-driver speakers that I didn’t like so on my mind I started to shape the thought that it’s more difficult to get an optimum performance out of a bigger driver (the bigger it gets the more difficult to cope with such a wide range of frequencies, while potentially a smaller one can cope - the ultimate example being headphones). Having said that there is no question in my mind for the benefits of a larger driver to convey the impact & presence of classical music (potentially also helping the low-end), but wondering whether you feel it can deliver with the same level of quality as a small driver can, or it is more a matter of implementation? If a smaller driver is sufficient for my needs is it still worth to pursue a larger one? Cheers!

[JLM]

Thanks a lot for your reply. I’m really taken with single driver speakers: the experience I’m getting is ahead of anything I’ve experienced with multi-drivers and their benefits far outweight their shortcoming. I think as you say 80db is more than sufficient for most things, a lot of times what I find myself doing is increasing the volume to augment for lower bass output (I’ve also worked with speaker placement and near field listening which I felt helped). I’ve also gotten a subwoofer but I’m a bit skeptical about using it as I’m afraid of losing some of the immediacy and purity of the sound I’m getting (and in a way I feel it goes against the very principle of single drivers. Do you feel that subwoofer is a good way for supporting the low end without jeopardizing sound quality? Any perspective/thoughts much appreciated!

Yes, adding sub(s) helps sound quality.  If bass signal is diverted from the extended range driver (hesitate to call any driver "full range" to avoid quibbles) it will make the job of that driver "easier" (lower distortions).  And of course you can adjust the bass.  If crossed over low enough you can't located the sub(s).  But more importantly the use of carefully placed multiple subs is the best way to address the huge bass peaks/dips which every residentially sized room has.  Suggest reading Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" 3rd edition as it's the consummate audiophile primer for understanding how speakers behave in-room.  He's well respected and his writing reflects the latest acoustical thinking. 

Decades ago Fletcher and Munson demonstrated that the human ear is most sensitive to midrange frequencies at lower sound pressure levels and thus one level loudness switches were added to most preamps to compensate.  Now-a-days purists have unfortunately driven them (and equally useful tone controls) from nearly all components, so many compensate by turning up the volume.  I used to be a very committed purist, stubbornly sticking to my single driver speakers, used EQ instead of baffle step circuits, had balanced mono-block power amps, and not speaker cable binding posts (ran the cables directly to the drivers).  Why not try the sub? 

Many multi-driver designs don't provide coherence except for far-field listening which after listening mid-field for years sounds to me like the performance seem like it's "over there" (remote). 

I use (3) 10 inch subs in a well proportioned (8ft x 13ft x 21ft), well insulated, dedicated room.  Found the typical 4th sub found in subwoofer "swarms" unnecessary.  BTW to me the room is the second most important and most ignored "component."  They are located 12 inches from the front right corner, 31 inches from the front left corner, and roughly midway along the left side wall.  Tried crossing the subs at 80 Hz but preferred 60 Hz.  The setup is midfield (about 10ft apart, 7ft from the listener, and toed in to cross 18 inches in front of the listener - similar to what is recommended by many for controlled directivity speakers).  Together with ambience tweeters they produce the most satisfying sound I've ever had. 

Am a believer that bass is foundational for good sound and basic for high fidelity.  Bass is best produced from along the walls/corners versus mids/highs that are best produced away from walls/corners (except for specialty speakers).  So the premise of full range speakers is flawed, besides being heavy/bulky and hard to ship/resell.  Besides towers are hard to ignore/gain WAF for, and can't be vertically adjusted for individual listening heights. 

[FullRangeMan]

Hi Peter,
I have no listened the Lii F15 but there is no complaint on it on the Decware site, they said it does not have the usual shout on the 2-6kHz range, this is something new in big cones a great advance. There are several big cones drivers from AN that have no response under 100Hz, you should avoid these speakers.
https://commonsenseaudio.com/an12classicspecs.jpg

https://commonsenseaudio.com/an15classicalnicospecs.jpg
bigger drivers is the way to go for classical music.
No to all classical repertoire, only to large orchestral music or heavy rock, a string quartet could benefit from a small 6'' driver due the musical treble content, the Alpair 7 can reach 30kHz and fall out at 40kHz but not efficient only 86dB:

but wondering whether you feel it can deliver with the same level of quality as a small driver can, or it is more a matter of implementation?
My personal view are that 12/15'' have great sound quality under 400Hz or so and 6'' and smaller drivers have great quality above 800Hz, that said maybe could be that drivers between 8/10 '' are the middle way that can run both, mine are this 10'' why it appear a nice offer at the time. Implementation is always important but personally I think that in small drivers it is more critical unless they run OB.
https://commonsenseaudio.com/an10classicalnicospecs.jpg
If a smaller driver is sufficient for my needs is it still worth to pursue a larger one?
I cant really say, it was already difficult to choose for myself, but its clear that you have 3 options:
-Small cones 6'' and smaller
- Mid cones 8 to 10''
https://commonsenseaudio.com/an10classicalnicospecs.jpg
- Big cones 12 and 15''

[scooby_scrappy]

Hi Peter,

I wanted a full range speaker that can play instruments and vocals faithfully at low volume.  I have very senstive hearing so I listen at low volumes.

I found a post which directed me to the charneyaudio.com website.  After reading how these speakers handle bass frequency and the testimonials, I was sold.  I ended up purchasing the Maestro speaker with a very efficient Voxativ AC-16 driver without auditioning.  I listen in a small room at nearfield distance 55".

I have been listening to the speakers for one day and here are my initial observations listening at low volume guessing around 35-45db:

1. Faithfully reproduces instruments (pianos, guitar, drums)
2. The soft pop vocals need more burn-in time.
3. With such an efficient speaker, my EL34 55-watt generated too much background hiss and caused my ears to clog.
4. I switched to a spare cheap Tri-Path amp and the background hiss is almost gone and the music is not affecting my ears.  In my case, the tube amp will be replaced by a class D amp either DAC or Orchard Audio.  These amps are dead quiet which would be perfect for my low volume listening.

Brian is a craftsman with his woodworking skills.

I am not associated or affiliated with Brian at charneyaudio.com but I am happy to find a speaker which fits my needs.

Jeff

[planet10]

drivers operating within their intended design parameters shouldn't "stretch" (or flex), the ideal is pure pistonic action.  Any flexing produces distortions.

This is certainly oft stated as a desire. No FR loudspeaker does this. A FR at some point has to transition from pistonic behaviouer to a chaotic mode. If this is not well controlled you get the oft seen higher frequency breakups evidenced by peaks and dips in the response. Ideally the chaotic behaviour is well controlled with a complete sessation of the outer part of the cone radiating and all the output coming from a smaller & smaller part of the inner cone producing all the sound. The best FR drivers are getting closer & closer to that ideal.

DMLs are at the extreme of this, where their entire output is based on chaotic behaviour.

Typically limitations of FR drivers are a trade offs between frequency extension, dispersion and how loud they can play before they start losing it. A larger cone (has the potential) to go lower and louder at the expense of midTop, really small ones cannot go low of play loud but can have spectacular mid/top performance. The sweet spot is likely 4-6.5” but there are a few outdtanding 8” (The F200A being one of those). I have yet to here a larger one that is to my liking. Of course the details of the driver (particularily, cone shape and composition and the dustcap) pay a huge role in how well it does.

Because they are not so stressed at lower volumes they are more capable of playing complex materials, as things get loud with dense”material one starts running into the limits of a FR driver.

The best of both worlds can be had with a WAW (Woofer Assisted Wideband), where the XO is low enuff thatthe coherence of the FR is maintained, and most of the “evils” of XOs. Releived of bass, the FR does not struggle and actually does midTop better and the bass extension comes down to how capable (the usually pricier) the bass parts are. Active systems are much more common, easier, and often cheaper than a passive system.

dave

[planet10]

I’ve also gotten a subwoofer but I’m a bit skeptical about using it as I’m afraid of losing some of the immediacy and purity of the sound I’m getting

Getting a typical subwoofer to meld with a FR is often very difficult. One needs woofers that have decent HF extension. Of the ones i have successfully used have used the least exyended has reached smoothly to 1.7 kHz, but the others have reached 5k typically and one to 10k (but with somewhat limited loudness capability, but still enuff to staisfy most people). I figure multiple subs (aka atmosphere generator) can then be used below that 94-60 Hz) to fill in the extreme bass, deal with at least some room artifacts and deal with the explosions & train crashes.

dave

[planet10]

Re the Charneys. This brings up the point that a good horn (or welll done TL) can provide more gain at the bottom end that allows for a FR to go lower & louder. The compromise is that a typical good horn or TL is not small.

It is very interesting to see the look on people’s faces listeing to the 3” FF85wk or Alpair 5.2/3 playing in a Frugel-Horn Lite when the drums come in on something like the Czech Film Orchestra heavy drum tracks. They don’t really go that low, but do an amazing job of the 1st fundemental which tricks you into thinking they can.

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/275897-frugel-horn-lite-3-drivers.html



dave

[JLM]

Hi Peter,

I wanted a full range speaker that can play instruments and vocals faithfully at low volume.  I have very senstive hearing so I listen at low volumes.

I found a post which directed me to the charneyaudio.com website.  After reading how these speakers handle bass frequency and the testimonials, I was sold.  I ended up purchasing the Maestro speaker with a very efficient Voxativ AC-16 driver without auditioning.  I listen in a small room at nearfield distance 55".

I have been listening to the speakers for one day and here are my initial observations listening at low volume guessing around 35-45db:

1. Faithfully reproduces instruments (pianos, guitar, drums)
2. The soft pop vocals need more burn-in time.
3. With such an efficient speaker, my EL34 55-watt generated too much background hiss and caused my ears to clog.
4. I switched to a spare cheap Tri-Path amp and the background hiss is almost gone and the music is not affecting my ears.  In my case, the tube amp will be replaced by a class D amp either DAC or Orchard Audio.  These amps are dead quiet which would be perfect for my low volume listening.

Brian is a craftsman with his woodworking skills.

I am not associated or affiliated with Brian at charneyaudio.com but I am happy to find a speaker which fits my needs.

Jeff

Suggest picking up a sound pressure meter or smart phone app.  35-45 dB is barely past background noise.  Normal conversation is roughly 70 dB. 

[JLM]

This is certainly oft stated as a desire. No FR loudspeaker does this. A FR at some point has to transition from pistonic behaviouer to a chaotic mode. If this is not well controlled you get the oft seen higher frequency breakups evidenced by peaks and dips in the response. Ideally the chaotic behaviour is well controlled with a complete sessation of the outer part of the cone radiating and all the output coming from a smaller & smaller part of the inner cone producing all the sound. The best FR drivers are getting closer & closer to that ideal.

DMLs are at the extreme of this, where their entire output is based on chaotic behaviour.
dave

What are DML's? 

[FullRangeMan]

What are DML's?

NXT speakers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_mode_loudspeaker

[DaveC113]

Hi all,

This is one thought/observation I wanted to get perspective one. When dealing with “difficult” to reproduce music (eg symphonic classical), where a single driver needs to cope with playing higher and lower frequencies at the same time, is it fair to say that at lower volumes the driver can do that more easily (as the cone doesn’t have to stretch so much) vs a higher volume where the cone stretches while reproducing a number of different frequencies? Again, I’m not arguing that single-drivers can’t play loud (they can), I’m saying whether when they are playing very demanding material a lower volume actually is easier and can deliver a better result.

Thanks for your thoughts!

IMO if you're really into symphonic, I'd give up on single drivers now... save yourself some grief. Due to various factors they don't play complex music with the same clarity a multi-driver speaker can.

This is coming from a big fan of single drivers, my own speaker uses a single driver based midrange in a horn, and even with it's bass handed over to a 15" woofer at 400 Hz, it's only ok at complex music.

In the past it was difficult to find a multi-way speaker with reasonable coherence without spending big $ but that's not the case these days.

However, I do believe it's the case that single drivers can play at low volumes better than most types of speakers, so if this is important to you it may be a trade-off between low volume performance and ultimate clarity of the reproduction when playing complex music. 

[PeterKK]

IMO if you're really into symphonic, I'd give up on single drivers now... save yourself some grief. Due to various factors they don't play complex music with the same clarity a multi-driver speaker can.

This is coming from a big fan of single drivers, my own speaker uses a single driver based midrange in a horn, and even with it's bass handed over to a 15" woofer at 400 Hz, it's only ok at complex music.

Hi Dave and thanks for your reply. I listen to a lot of classical music and I’m on a bit of a different page: having owned and listened to a lot of 2-way speakers I clearly prefer the sound I’m getting from single-drivers. For me their immediacy and speed cannot be matched by 2-way systems. They are much better for opera as well as they do voices very realistically. Having said that not all single-driver speakers work for everyone and there are speakers/drivers that cannot deliver across the range and matching with the room and positioning is important (but that’s the case with any speaker). I listen at around the 75-85db range and they play very well. Could you share which 2-ways you would recommend as ideal for classical music? Cheers!

[PeterKK]

Typically limitations of FR drivers are a trade offs between frequency extension, dispersion and how loud they can play before they start losing it. A larger cone (has the potential) to go lower and louder at the expense of midTop, really small ones cannot go low of play loud but can have spectacular mid/top performance. The sweet spot is likely 4-6.5” but there are a few outdtanding 8” (The F200A being one of those). I have yet to here a larger one that is to my liking. Of course the details of the driver (particularily, cone shape and composition and the dustcap) pay a huge role in how well it does.

That has been my (rather limited) experience as well exactly as you’re describing it in terms of bigger vs smaller driver performance. Smaller drivers in a design that enhances/amplifies the low-end being a great way to get a balanced across the board performance. I haven’t tried the Fostex 8” but I have heard good things about it, one 8” I’m seriously considering however is the Altec 755: I’m really interested to try it considering it’s reputation, do you have experience and what would you say would be the differences vs a modern driver like the Fostex? Thanks again!

[PeterKK]

No to all classical repertoire, only to large orchestral music or heavy rock, a string quartet could benefit from a
My personal view are that 12/15'' have great sound quality under 400Hz or so and 6'' and smaller drivers have great quality above 800Hz, that said maybe could be that drivers between 8/10 '' are the middle way that can run both, mine are this 10'' why it appear a nice offer at the time. Implementation is always important but personally I think that in small drivers it is more critical unless they run OB.

I understand and that’s also my feeling supported by what I’ve heard so far in various setups. 10” might already be too big to play well higher frequencies but there might be 8 inch drivers that work well across the range. There is no question that a bigger driver can play a role on orchestral music but if it can’t deliver the higher frequencies it doesn’t work for me (although it might for other people, I tend to think that we all listen differently). 

[PeterKK]

Many multi-driver designs don't provide coherence except for far-field listening which after listening mid-field for years sounds to me like the performance seem like it's "over there" (remote). 

I use (3) 10 inch subs in a well proportioned (8ft x 13ft x 21ft), well insulated, dedicated room.  Found the typical 4th sub found in subwoofer "swarms" unnecessary.  BTW to me the room is the second most important and most ignored "component."  They are located 12 inches from the front right corner, 31 inches from the front left corner, and roughly midway along the left side wall.  Tried crossing the subs at 80 Hz but preferred 60 Hz.  The setup is midfield (about 10ft apart, 7ft from the listener, and toed in to cross 18 inches in front of the listener - similar to what is recommended by many for controlled directivity speakers).  Together with ambience tweeters they produce the most satisfying sound I've ever had. 

Am a believer that bass is foundational for good sound and basic for high fidelity.  Bass is best produced from along the walls/corners versus mids/highs that are best produced away from walls/corners (except for specialty speakers).  So the premise of full range speakers is flawed, besides being heavy/bulky and hard to ship/resell.  Besides towers are hard to ignore/gain WAF for, and can't be vertically adjusted for individual listening heights.

I’m currently experimenting with the subwoofer on 2 different setups (one in a smaller room and one in a larger one) and will report back. I’m not a “bass head” in any way and I prefer a naturally sounding system, but if it can meaningfully improve the sound then I would definitely embrace it. In my case the subwoofer offers only”in” terminals (and no out) so I have connected it in parallel to my main speakers to the amplifier, so the speakers still operate across the range as they did before. The bigger room is a medium/big room (25 sq meters) and I’m listening near field (1.8m between the speakers and me) with the speakers 1m into the room (I have experimented a lot with placement).

[planet10]

I haven’t tried the Fostex 8” but I have heard good things about it, one 8” I’m seriously considering however is the Altec 755

The Altec has quite the reputation but i hve not heard, or even seen, one. I have sold a few EnABLed FE206eN². Not the 1st driver i’d go to, but in. abig horn can be very dynamic and are very efficient.



In that size my 2 favorites are the SEAS FA22 and the Visaton B200 (but only with phase plugs). Box for the 1st is easy, the 2nd is much more challenging.

My favorite drivers are the Mark Audio, you might look to the Alpair 10p/10.3/11ms. My favorite is actually the smaller 4” A7.3.



dave
dave