[DaveC113]

Hi Dave and thanks for your reply. I listen to a lot of classical music and I’m on a bit of a different page: having owned and listened to a lot of 2-way speakers I clearly prefer the sound I’m getting from single-drivers. For me their immediacy and speed cannot be matched by 2-way systems. They are much better for opera as well as they do voices very realistically. Having said that not all single-driver speakers work for everyone and there are speakers/drivers that cannot deliver across the range and matching with the room and positioning is important (but that’s the case with any speaker). I listen at around the 75-85db range and they play very well. Could you share which 2-ways you would recommend as ideal for classical music? Cheers!

I wouldn't recommend a 2-way speaker either. The best symphonic reproduction comes from larger 3+ way speakers. IMO, there's no doubt you can get speakers that don't have the same compromises you mention, it's just a question of budget. If you want to play big music with clarity and at realistic levels, it's going to take some cash.

Single drivers offer a hi-fi experience for a lot less cash than many alternatives, but have some additional compromises that work for some tastes but not others, for example the 4.5" single driver that I use can sound amazing on female vocals but it sucks for Led Zeppelin or symphonic music on it's own. Used as a wideband midrange it's far better, but for symphonic the wideband use is the real issue because of IMD and breakup, a 3+ way speaker using hard-cone materials is much better. For example, YG, Magico, Revel, TAD, Focal, etc... 

[PeterKK]

Single drivers offer a hi-fi experience for a lot less cash than many alternatives, but have some additional compromises that work for some tastes but not others, for example the 4.5" single driver that I use can sound amazing on female vocals but it sucks for Led Zeppelin or symphonic music on it's own. Used as a wideband midrange it's far better, but for symphonic the wideband use is the real issue because of IMD and breakup, a 3+ way speaker using hard-cone materials is much better. For example, YG, Magico, Revel, TAD, Focal, etc...

I've been dissapointed with 2-way speakers and that's what started my interest with single drivers. I'm quite happy with them now and I'm getting a very "you're there" feeling that is really something. Having said I've actually haven't looked into 3-way speakers (as I considered that the even more complicated crossovers would take-away from immediacy), what are a couple of models that you would recommend listening to for classical music? cheers

[PeterKK]

The Altec has quite the reputation but i hve not heard, or even seen, one. I have sold a few EnABLed FE206eN². Not the 1st driver i’d go to, but in. abig horn can be very dynamic and are very efficient.

In that size my 2 favorites are the SEAS FA22 and the Visaton B200 (but only with phase plugs). Box for the 1st is easy, the 2nd is much more challenging.

My favorite drivers are the Mark Audio, you might look to the Alpair 10p/10.3/11ms. My favorite is actually the smaller 4” A7.3.

Thanks a lot for your message Dave. I'm not at all at the level to be able to perform Enabl so it would be off the shelf for me. Would the Seas or the Visaton work on an open baffle? cheers!

[BobM]

Single drive speakers sound better when playing simple or single instrument music.

[JLM]

Classical music covers a wide range.  Peter, are you thinking symphonic/orchestral/mass choral or chamber/solo performances?  Single driver designs are wonderful for the smaller ensembles, not so much for larger ones. 

Peter you mentioned having a small room, just how big is it?  Rooms are a highly neglected "component" and many audiophiles "over-gear" their given rooms.  Most dipole/open baffle or 3-way designs would be ill suited for a really small room.  Small rooms also tend to be squarish, so two more  strikes against them as they reinforce bass echo problems plus they make fitting room treatments harder. 

There is no perfect speaker.  Bigger/more complex speakers tend to handle larger ensembles/cover a wider range of frequencies/can produce higher sound pressure levels (spls) better but add crossover issues, mixes types of drivers, and doesn't allow for ideal location from which to propagate bass versus mid/treble frequencies.  Smaller/simpler speakers tend to be more coherent, but can't cover the full frequency range or produce high spls.  Modern thinking dictates that the best solution is smaller/simpler speakers dedicated to mid/high frequencies plus multiple subwoofers to handle bass and address inherent in-room bass peaks/dips. 

[Bendingwave]

DML's do Jazz and Classical music very well. They are also very cheap to build. DML's do great from 100hz and up and when combined with a powered sub they sound fantastic.  Of course its all designed based as the better your design the better the sound.

This is an entry level DML design that most beginners utilize. http://projectgallery.parts-express.com/speaker-projects/dml-flat-pannel/

[rodge827]

Hi Peter,

I wanted a full range speaker that can play instruments and vocals faithfully at low volume.  I have very senstive hearing so I listen at low volumes.

I found a post which directed me to the charneyaudio.com website.  After reading how these speakers handle bass frequency and the testimonials, I was sold.  I ended up purchasing the Maestro speaker with a very efficient Voxativ AC-16 driver without auditioning.  I listen in a small room at nearfield distance 55".

I have been listening to the speakers for one day and here are my initial observations listening at low volume guessing around 35-45db:

1. Faithfully reproduces instruments (pianos, guitar, drums)
2. The soft pop vocals need more burn-in time.
3. With such an efficient speaker, my EL34 55-watt generated too much background hiss and caused my ears to clog.
4. I switched to a spare cheap Tri-Path amp and the background hiss is almost gone and the music is not affecting my ears.  In my case, the tube amp will be replaced by a class D amp either DAC or Orchard Audio.  These amps are dead quiet which would be perfect for my low volume listening.

Brian is a craftsman with his woodworking skills.

I am not associated or affiliated with Brian at charneyaudio.com but I am happy to find a speaker which fits my needs.

Jeff

+1 for Charney Audio

Charney horns are designed on the tractrix theory and deliver at all volume levels. No need to clutter your room with multiple subs, crossovers, and drivers that filter out the intimate goodness of classical music. Just sweet 3D engaging distortion free sound with articulate bass. Depending on room size and budget Charney will set you up right! Charney is located in Somerset NJ and is easy to get to via mass transit or drive.

I own a pair and listen to all types of music, rock-Bach, and am very satisfied! FWIW I have gone through the gamut of multiple subs, monitors, large towers, open baffle, front loaded and rear loaded horns all with room correction. None of them have delivered like the simple Charney set up has. Source, preamp, amp, Charney horns and Done! Another interesting thing with the Charney’s is that minimal room treatments are needed. The more of them I took out of my room the better the sound!

Hope you find what your looking for...

http://charneyaudio.com/

[FullRangeMan]

Maybe the OP could like a sensible more affordable horn as Frugal Horn that Dave suggested or a hi-power handling pro-audio FR driver, the Charney prices are not funny:
 $80,000
 $85,000
 $22,000
 $25,000
 $28,000
 $6,500
 $8,900
 $12,100
 $16,500

[planet10]

Would the Seas or the Visaton work on an open baffle? cheers!

OB is the 1^st choice for the B200. If the baffle is sufficiently large, it is one of the few drivers you can get away without a halper woofer. It does need those phase plugs to deal with the laser-like top end and the rising response.



dave

[FullRangeMan]

Hi Dave,
Do you mean say the phase plugs are mandatory after the ENABL?

[doorman]

Having heard those Visaton’s at Dave’s, (a while back now !) in BIG OB’s, they were very satisfying performers indeed.

[planet10]

I suggest phase plugs with or without EnABL. All of the ones i shipped had both EnABL & phase plugs. Sonce i am going to be winding down doing EnABL (just no time), if you want EnABLed drivers you are going to have to do them yourself. I am happy to help. Maybe someone will get to the point where they can carry on the service for others.

Given the current state of my ability to build cabinets i might just part with my personal pairs of B200EN².

dave

[FullRangeMan]

I sorry for these bad news Dave, you have lots of ENABL experience.

[diyman]

I understand and that’s also my feeling supported by what I’ve heard so far in various setups. 10” might already be too big to play well higher frequencies but there might be 8 inch drivers that work well across the range. There is no question that a bigger driver can play a role on orchestral music but if it can’t deliver the higher frequencies it doesn’t work for me (although it might for other people, I tend to think that we all listen differently).

I listen mainly to classical music and opera as well.  Here is my experience although it’s probably limited compared to that of some others.

First I tried full rangers with AN Classic 10” Ferrite drivers in ported enclosures.  They were alright, but never completely satisfying with classical music.  Always seem to lack fullness and realism.

Next I build a pair of 2-ways.  Specifically, Jeff Bagby’s Piccolos with SB Acoustics drivers.   I need to pause here for a moment and acknowledge the wonderful contributions Jeff made with his designs for the rest of us.  He will certainly be missed.

To me the Piccolo 2-ways sound much better with classical music than the full range ANs.  They deliver the music with a fullness and authority that is lacking with the full range drivers. Others may disagree, but that’s my opinion. 

I think the reason is the big difference in dynamic range, which is critical for classical music.  The single full range drivers just don’t seem to be able to match the 2-ways in that critical area.  A 3-way is probably even better.

Full range fans like to point to coherence as being one of their main advantages.   However, I haven’t detected any significant lack of coherence with the 2-ways.  At least I’m not aware of any, and I think the positives for the 2-ways override any negatives.  You don't need a lot of dynamic range for Diana Krall, but you certainly do for Mahler, Tchaikovsky, or Beethoven.

I’m not sure which particularly 2-ways you have tried, but you might find some better than others.  I don’t think you can assume that they all sound the same.

[cipriano]

I've had some Caintuck Betsy OB for 4-5 years that have been ENABL'ed and phase-plugged by Dave. I love them for all types of music. I think "large music" actually sounds better through these drivers. It has a purity to it, like it's an anti-discombobulator device or something.

[diyman]

I've had some Caintuck Betsy OB for 4-5 years that have been ENABL'ed and phase-plugged by Dave. I love them for all types of music. I think "large music" actually sounds better through these drivers. It has a purity to it, like it's an anti-discombobulator device or something.

But does "large music" actually sound better through them because they are OB, or because they are full range?  I'm sort of voting for OB to be the answer, and hope to find out soon.  My plan for next build is definitely OB.  Just need to decide exactly what to do.

[planet10]

Actually OB would be less capable than a good box. I worked thr a number of OBs and came to the conclusion that people laud them over boxes because there are so many bad boxes out there. By controlling the bass, you have the potential for greater bass levels, less stress down low, greater dynamics and more potential loudness capabilities. In an OB you run into excursion limits sooner.

dave

[diyman]

Actually OB would be less capable than a good box. I worked thr a number of OBs and came to the conclusion that people laud them over boxes because there are so many bad boxes out there. By controlling the bass, you have the potential for greater bass levels, less stress down low, greater dynamics and more potential loudness capabilities. In an OB you run into excursion limits sooner.

dave

Yeah. I recognize that there are significant bass limitations with OB.  Almost mentioned it in my post above, but decided to skip over it instead. 

I might find that I need to add a sub or two to get the bass, and if that's the case I'll address it later.  Right now my main priority is to get the midrange right along with the total dynamic range, flat frequency response, and low distortions.  And I don't see how it's possible to get there with full range drivers.

The reason for OB is to get the large and deep sound stage that I want for symphonic music.  I recently heard some Magnepans in a store and it was entirely different from anything I've ever heard coming from  boxes.  Now I need to hear how it sounds in my house.  I'm expecting to like it, but won't really know until I've tried it.

[rodge827]

Maybe the OP could like a sensible more affordable horn as Frugal Horn that Dave suggested or a hi-power handling pro-audio FR driver, the Charney prices are not funny:
 $80,000
 $85,000
 $22,000
 $25,000
 $28,000
 $6,500
 $8,900
 $12,100
 $16,500

The OP never stated a budget range and I find your post to be non-sensible! Please delete it!!  No one cares about your opinion for the cost of superior sound!

He actually never asked for a speaker recommendation. He originally wanted to know if full range single drivers had to be played at lower volumes to effectively handle complex classical music. To that end the answer is NO! With the right driver and cabinet design full range single drivers can deliver at normal to loud listening levels.

Chris

[diyman]

...  He originally wanted to know if full range single drivers had to be played at lower volumes to effectively handle complex classical music. To that end the answer is NO! With the right driver and cabinet design full range single drivers can deliver at normal to loud listening levels.

Chris

I’m not sure you can be certain that the answer is NO.

When a full range driver produces low frequencies in the pistonic mode it stretches the surround.  And the higher the SPLs the more the stretch, which in turn increases the radial tension on the periphery of the cone.

Now you’re expecting that same cone to breakup in various regions in order to produce the high frequencies.  So does the increased tension along its periphery affect the cone’s ability to allow the necessary regions to break up properly?  I don’t know the answer, but don’t thing you can assume that there is no effect.