[AvsFan]

One more thing to add for anyone considering full range drivers vs. multi-way for classical music.

Complex music, such as classical symphonies, creates doppler distortions when played on a single cone full range.  The problem is the main cone is moving back and forth at a slow rate to produce the bass frequencies while at the same time portions of it are vibrating at much higher frequencies.  This creates the doppler effect.  Much the same as the variation in pitch that you hear when a vehicle siren moves towards you and then away from you.

So when you combine lack of dynamic range, limited frequency response, and doppler effect with full range drivers it makes a very strong case in favor of multi-way speakers for full enjoyment of classical music.

Can't that be said about a lot of music then? Music with a lot going on? A lot of different dynamics throughout? 

[planet10]

Yes.

And doppler distortion is somewhat disputed. A couple hearing text books i have read call it a red herring, but there are people who claim they can hear it.
What is clear that if the music gets too busy, many/mist FR will start to get a bit “confused”. How much is, i guess, related to the listeners sensitivity to it and how lous thigs are being played. In my experience most people listen at quiter levels than others think they should.

dave

[diyman]

Yes.

And doppler distortion is somewhat disputed. A couple hearing text books i have read call it a red herring, but there are people who claim they can hear it.
What is clear that if the music gets too busy, many/mist FR will start to get a bit “confused”. How much is, i guess, related to the listeners sensitivity to it and how lous thigs are being played. In my experience most people listen at quiter levels than others think they should.

dave

Dave, I think again this has an awful lot to do with the type of music you are listening to and how loud it's played.  There are some "industry experts" I've talked to who say that if a speaker sounds good with one type of music it will sound good with all types.  I think they are entirely wrong.

The dynamic range necessary for a symphony is much greater than for a jazz singer.  And this is where I think the big difference between FR and multi-way comes in.  Other things like distortions, etc., also play a role but to a lesser extent.

PeterKK started this discussion based on his search for a good answer for classical music.  That's why I keep getting back to this same point about dynamic range.

[DaveC113]

You can certainly hear a different kind of distortion becoming audible as excursion increases in single driver speakers that's different from breakup or "shout". Breakup can make the sound harsh and blurry as volume is increased, the doppler distortion is totally different and only audible as excursion reaches xmax. IME, the enabl treatment planet10 does for their drivers improves breakup distortion or "shout" by a massive amount, complex music is much more intelligible and overall clarity at higher SPLs is far, far better. On my own speakers, using a 4.5" driver as a wideband midrange, one of the last hurdles was eliminating shout as volume increased. With a 400 Hz xo it was only an issue at much higher SPL, but it simply wasn't good enough until the drivers were enabl'ed.  So in any case, if you do want better SPL and complex music performance with a single driver, I'd go with an enabl'ed 8" driver.

[DaveC113]

Dave, I think again this has an awful lot to do with the type of music you are listening to and how loud it's played.  There are some "industry experts" I've talked to who say that if a speaker sounds good with one type of music it will sound good with all types.  I think they are entirely wrong.

The dynamic range necessary for a symphony is much greater than for a jazz singer.  And this is where I think the big difference between FR and multi-way comes in.  Other things like distortions, etc., also play a role but to a lesser extent.

PeterKK started this discussion based on his search for a good answer for classical music.  That's why I keep getting back to this same point about dynamic range.

I agree. The best driver I've experienced for vocals is probably Feastrex but it can't play symphonic music well.

A big system like the YG Sonja XV might lose out to the Feastrex by a tiny margin on solo female vocals, but not by much and the YG will be far superior with symphonic... imo symphonic on a small single driver is best avoided altogether. 

[JLM]

Extended range drivers make for excellent midrange drivers.  That's how I'm using my Fostex F200a (rated 30-20,000 Hz), with 3 subwoofers and a pair of ambience tweeters. 

[diyman]

Extended range drivers make for excellent midrange drivers.  That's how I'm using my Fostex F200a (rated 30-20,000 Hz), with 3 subwoofers and a pair of ambience tweeters.

So it sounds like this is essentially a 3-way system, not just a single driver implementation.  But if the F200a goes from 30 to 20,000 Hz why do you need to add anything else.

[rollo]

  Would depend on music played. Piano goes down to 28HZ. Organ goes to below 16HZ. So if one listens to limited music I agree no need for anything else. The ambience and scale is better served with lower octaves. I use single driver with built in sub for each speaker.


charles

[JLM]

So it sounds like this is essentially a 3-way system, not just a single driver implementation.  But if the F200a goes from 30 to 20,000 Hz why do you need to add anything else.

That was my original thinking.  But then read Floyd Toole, Earl Gedde, and Duke LeJeune.  They support use of multiple carefully placed subs to help tame in-room bass peaks/dips (that can be 30 dB).  Try measuring your room.  (BTW also run Direct <500 Hz version.)  I cross the subs over at 60 Hz and they go down to 20 Hz.  The ambience tweeter was Duke's suggestion as the F200a is 8 inch diameter with no whizzer, so it beams above 4,000 Hz.  The tweeter actually acts as a poor man's "Late Ceiling Splash" device, a Duke invention, which is my case helps boost treble response and solidifies/widens the soundstage. 

So I'm using the F200a as an extended midrange, covering 7 octaves. 

[NoDisco]

That was my original thinking.  But then read Floyd Toole, Earl Gedde, and Duke LeJeune.  They support use of multiple carefully placed subs to help tame in-room bass peaks/dips (that can be 30 dB).  Try measuring your room.  (BTW also run Direct <500 Hz version.)  I cross the subs over at 60 Hz and they go down to 20 Hz.  The ambience tweeter was Duke's suggestion as the F200a is 8 inch diameter with no whizzer, so it beams above 4,000 Hz.  The tweeter actually acts as a poor man's "Late Ceiling Splash" device, a Duke invention, which is my case helps boost treble response and solidifies/widens the soundstage. , and I really

So I'm using the F200a as an extended midrange, covering 7 octaves.

I use my omegas the same way, but the result also varies greatly with power amplifier. My favorite daytime amp is single ended and at low volumes. It still took me years to appreciate how well the omegas could play by themselves, and even more time to get them to integrate with a pair of subs. Supertweeters, no problem, but the subs were another question. I really had to get them out of the omegas sound envelope for them to sound their best. They're almost not "on", but offer a fast tight bottom end. Now that I have them dialed in and really understand the omegas, I listen at nearly whisper quiet volumes, with or without their sub/super partners. Ah the wonders of having too much time at home.

[diyman]

That was my original thinking.  But then read Floyd Toole, Earl Gedde, and Duke LeJeune.  They support use of multiple carefully placed subs to help tame in-room bass peaks/dips (that can be 30 dB).  Try measuring your room.  (BTW also run Direct <500 Hz version.)  I cross the subs over at 60 Hz and they go down to 20 Hz.  The ambience tweeter was Duke's suggestion as the F200a is 8 inch diameter with no whizzer, so it beams above 4,000 Hz.  The tweeter actually acts as a poor man's "Late Ceiling Splash" device, a Duke invention, which is my case helps boost treble response and solidifies/widens the soundstage. 

So I'm using the F200a as an extended midrange, covering 7 octaves.

So, you make a very good point that seems be often overlooked, particularly by single driver full range fans.  It's not just about frequency response, it also about dispersion and power response.  A typical 4.5" full range driver will start to beam around 3KHz, and there is nothing that you can do about it.  On the other hand, a 2-way with the appropriate crossover point won't beam until about 13KHz depending on the exact tweeter.

(BTW.  I think your 8" F200A actually starts to beam around 1,687 Hz, not 4,000 Hz.)   

[JLM]

The sub concept (sometimes called a "swarm") requires 3 or 4 subs.  There was a manufacturer years ago who used a microphone on a 2nd sub placed at the opposite end of the room from the first sub.  The microphone directed the 2nd sub to generate out of phase signal in an effort to even out the in-room peaks/dips.

"Beaming" is a gradual effect.  Bob Brines, who designed/built my speakers used 4,000 Hz as a ballpark number. 

[diyman]

I miss Bob's posts and his designs.  He was very talented.  It's a loss for the rest of us that he retired from this activity.

[honfatboy]

Thanks Dave! I’ll check out the A7.3 as well. Always appreciate your shared knowledge on all the forums!