[mlschifter]

I find your offer to comp a measurement rig and set of coefffic ents for SOCS nice, but, to use a popular saying, "a day late and a dollar short"...

When a product can't do what it was marketed to do, i.e., speaker AND room correction, after 5 years, I think it is time to offer to recall the product and offer refunds. Mine has sat in its box for years waiting for the day it can actually do what it was purchased to do. I just do not want to wait any longer. If you wish to resolve this sincerely, please discuss a return and refund. As you do not sell a product I am interested in, I do not believe a credit or trade would serve my needs.

I guess I should have read your reply more thoroughly...

Of course I would have very much liked to have shared mail with you many years ago... Point One... (at ANY time over the years you've owned this product)

Point Two... without knowing who you are I cannot do much more at this moment... May I please ask you to supply to me your name, address and invoice number so I can verify and reference this in our accounting system...

While we are surely a day late or a dollar short... I am trying to show you that we are more than ready to deliver... If this is simply about a refund (and attack on my credibility in order to gain same) then simply let me know here, or via e-mail... Our duties and responsibilities are clear... and your position seems to be also very clear... Our rights AND yours are important to me... and I will serve both of them as best as I can...

Thanks so much...

All the best...

mls

[TheChairGuy]

Mark,

I was darn well hoping you had an answer to my query, and indeed you had a doozy    

Forums like this can sometimes be great to correct certain misgivings...like that I had about AV123 and Revelation Audio cables previously.  While I wasn't going to mention it publicly in a forum until now, I had pretty much banned AV123 products from my consideration thinking that you had stolen another's 'identity' to use for your own designs.

Indeed, Revelation (www.RevelationCables.com) seems to have existed from at least 1991 in Los Angeles...just as Mark has indicated.

My apologies are in order and I am thrilled that there was a perfectly good explanation for this situation.

Thanks for being a good sport and explaining this all in detail - calmly and rationally.   Really, thank you.

With considerably higher respect for you and AV123 than a few hours ago...

John aka TheChairGuy

[rosconey]

my -vaporware comment wasnt intended to be a-it was made for you comment-
sorry for the confusion-


but my take is 5 years is about 3 too many-
you go buy a new 12cyl bmw,the dealer says it only runs on 4 for now but  very soon it will run on all 12cyl -well 5 years latter you still have a 4 banger-

thats just the way i look at it

[mlschifter]

Mark,

I was darn well hoping you had an answer to my query, and indeed you had a doozy    

Forums like this can sometimes be great to correct certain misgivings...like that I had about AV123 and Revelation Audio cables previously.  While I wasn't going to mention it publicly in a forum until now, I had pretty much banned AV123 products from my consideration thinking that you had stolen another's 'identity' to use for your own designs.

Indeed, Revelation (www.RevelationCables.com) seems to have e ...

Thank YOU John...

I totally understand and I know that some of this just "goes with the territory"...

Mike is a fine fellow and I've called him a friend for almost 30 years...  

Thank you very much for allowing me the opportunity to express myself... I have a terrible flu-bug and I'm much more cranky than normal today... Just glad it came out well...

Humbly...

mls

[mlschifter]

my -vaporware comment wasnt intended to be a-it was made for you comment-
sorry for the confusion-


but my take is 5 years is about 3 too many-
you go buy a new 12cyl bmw,the dealer says it only runs on 4 for now but  very soon it will run on all 12cyl -well 5 years latter you still have a 4 banger-

thats just the way i look at it

Hey... I'm cool with that...

Your example is flawed... but I'm STILL cool with it...  

All we want to do is to fulfill the implicit promise to deliver... I'm doing that... I'm not asking for any breaks here... I understand that you have a viewpoint and that I may or may not choose to agree...

In this case... all I want is for someone to hold my feet to the fire the way Marbles is... If I'm full of shi* --- THEN string me up...

By the way... thanks for expressing yourself...

All the best...

mls

[rosconey]

so basicly what your saying is-
dont plan on winning any of the av123 raffles,still play and pay -but dont plan on winning because i have a memory like a effalant  er elephant.      

i'm kool

[mlschifter]

so basicly what your saying is-
dont plan on winning any of the av123 raffles,still play and pay -but dont plan on winning because i have a memory like a effalant  er elephant.      

i'm kool

Actually... I'd be thrilled if you win... I know you're a very good guy...

Sometimes I get cranky also... My wife is checking me into our local hospital this Wednesday for a "once over"... She told me about this while answering this thread this morning (nice huh)...

Leaving for China and Russia for 6 long months... Whew... Guess I had better prepare myself...

All the best to you...

mls

[cab]

I have sent you an email with my name and address. The serial number and/or invoice number will follow after I return home from a business trip in two weeks and can unpack the unit.

I understand you are both excited about the product, and confident that at some point you will deliver on your promises. I also appreciate your good will in resolving this.

My feeling is that after 4~5 years, I have waited long enough. I feel for you and understand the difficulties you have faced. Still, I think it was not  only a tremendous error in judgement to market a product before it was ready to do what it was sold to do, but also very poor business practice to not have come forward after a year or so and offered to recall the product. 5 years is just too long, and unexcusable. Your willingness to take responsibility is the right thing to do.

I have not attacked your credibilty in an effort to gain a refund; this discussion started after the release of another correction product announcement bearing your name, the R-DES, and the (later corrected by yourself) comment from Mr. DeWolf that the software was not yet ready. I brought the P-1 situation to light to alert people who may not be familiar with the 5 year wait, and may not wish to buy something that may or may not ever do what it is being sold to do.

At this juncture, I think that if you wish to stand behind the P-1 and take responsibilty, it would be best to offer a refund instead of more promises that you may or may not be able to keep in the near future. If your SOCS release is truly imminent (what exactly is a "soft release", by the way?), it took 5 years. How many more years until the RCS is released?

If you are sincere about taking responsibility,  I would be most happy to return it and receive a refund.

Again, thank you for your attention to this matter.

[mlschifter]

I have sent you an email with my name and address. The serial number and/or invoice number will follow after I return home from a business trip in two weeks and can unpack the unit.

I understand you are both excited about the product, and confident that at some point you will deliver on your promises. I also appreciate your good will in resolving this.

My feeling is that after 4~5 years, I have waited long enough. I feel for you and understand the difficulties you have faced. Still, I think it was not ...

I'll look forward to the mail...

I can only point to your comments made very early on in this thread... They certainly caught my attention... Our R-DES works fine (thank you) and we delivered 50 working units at the show. We allowed these reviewers to upload the software by visiting our ftp site... Simple and effcient...

I do find it interesting that you seemingly are not willing to reply to several points (Interpolation being one of these) and offers I have made with respect to this... Your choice... but your decision and "line" you've taken has also been noted in these exchanges... I'm not without understanding... I am keen to please and wonder why you have said some of the things you've said about me... Would make anyone wonder...

Lets see how this plays out... My guess is if I DO EXACTLY as you say you will be happy... If I chose another tact I'll be seeing you here again... Just my opinion... but your careful choice of wording to my reply makes it very clear and well understood to me...

With sincerest respect...

mls

[Craig Chase]

There was a VERY detailed review of the P-1A and P-3A which was done by "Secrets of Home Theater and high Fidelity" in September, 2000. According to the review, the P-1A sold for $950 and the P-3A for $699 USA.

It is a total rave about the P-3A and P1-A working together for jitter reduction, DAC ... etc... then talks about the future options of the speaker and room correction.

The speaker correction software is listed as a $399 option and the room correction is listed as a $699 option, WHEN they became available ...

Assuming this is true, that these were options to be purchased when the upgrade was available, this entire "thread topic" is certainly NOT what it originally appeared.

[Adam_Reiter]

Cab, you might also want to consider that YOU yourself never once CALLED or EMAILED Mark or AV123 about your concerns (At least you havent eluded to the fact).

If I bought something and then decided 4 years later that I was going to complain about it, I sure as heck WOULD NOT expect a refund.

I think you are extemely lucky that Mark is trying to work with you as it is.  Offering you free SOCS measurements or perhaps trade.  No other manufacturer would do that.  No way, no how, regardless on YOUR viewpoints about the products do's or dont's

[mlschifter]

I have sent you an email with my name and address. The serial number and/or invoice number will follow after I return home from a business trip in two weeks and can unpack the unit.

I understand you are both excited about the product, and confident that at some point you will deliver on your promises. I also appreciate your good will in resolving this.

My feeling is that after 4~5 years, I have waited long enough. I feel for you and understand the difficulties you have faced. Still, I think it was not ...

I have asked our staff to search the current archive for your name... So far we have not found you... so indeed we will need your invoice number...

Thanks...

mls

[ctviggen]

Will the R-DES work with stereo subs?  Is there any tecnical information on it?

[mlschifter]

Will the R-DES work with stereo subs?  Is there any tecnical information on it?

Yes...

Stereo (analog only for now) IN's and OUT's...

Please connnect with our guys about tech data... I do not want to cross the "marketing line" here in any way....

Thank you...

mls

[Mad DOg]

Will the R-DES work with stereo subs?  Is there any tecnical information on it?

you might consider asking this question over on the audiocircle's av123 forum or av123's own forum...

[ctviggen]

Where are these forums?  The av123 website lists a ton of forums.

[ctviggen]

Oops.  Amongst the list of forums was an "AV123" forum.

[rosconey]

http://forum.av123.com/index.php

hit community on top bar

[Mad DOg]

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=54

[Mikeyb]

Cab,

I am just an onlooker here and don't know anything about you, but I gotta put in .02 cents or so.

Some of what you have had to say here is valid.  Mark S. has admitted as much.  But I can't wrap my thoughts around what would entitle you to a refund (at this point).  We don't know all the facts, but let's see if we have most of the important stuff correct:

 - You purchased the the P-1a, one that came with added value to your system out of the box, and that came with the promise that added functionality would be forthcoming (very soon).

- That added functionality would come at an additional cost (optionally)

- You have never paid for that added functionality

- The added functionality is being offered way late

While I understand your frustration and your reasons for making the purchase at the time you purchased, and while I believe you do not believe Mark S. or anyone at P-Tech purposely mislead or duped you into buying the P-1a, why do you NOW believe a refund is an appropriate remedy for you?  Had you voiced your frustration say some 4+ years ago, you may have gotten that refund without any hassle whatsoever.

The P-1a was/is a working product, and as is/was, is a product with value all by itself.  The upgrade option/promise is why you purchased, and you have all the reason in the world to be frustrated that it has taken this long to have the opportunity to get it.  Many circumstances prevented you from getting it, but none are because there was an intent to deceive you.

Furthermore, your (publicly) questioning of Mark's credibility based on your buying experience is not deserved....unless you believe you were duped.  And like I said previously, I don't believe anyone including you believe that to be true.