Mark Schifter's Rocket Digital equalization for 400.00

cab · « **Reply #20 on:** 6 Feb 2005, 06:50 am »

First of all, the product under discussion is not a DAC (the P-3), but a unit that was marketed as a "room correction, speaker correction, upsampling DSP engine", the P-1. It wasn't marketed as an upsampler which "may have other capabilites at some future time", but as a room correction, speaker correction unit in line with the TACT unit at a much lower price point.

Here's the hype from the 2000 Vegas audio show (yes, 2000):

"the Perpetual Technologies P1-A room-correction system, which costs $950..."

Only problem is, they have never released the software, and thus the unit is really just an overpriced upsampler. Check the Perpetual Technologies web page for all the marketing hype...Oh, wait, there is no longer a web page...

You don't need a Harvard MBA to understand that you don't release a product into the market as a room correction system until you HAVE THE SOFTWARE READY FOR ROOM CORRECTION!

Where would Apple be today if 5 years ago they started selling the Ipod for $400 as a digital music player that could for now only store addresses, saying, "hey, it can hold 20,000 tunes, store pictures, and it's an external hard drive, and oh, one other thing, we don't have all the bugs worked out yet, but the software is on the way real soon!" ??? Do you think people would say, "yeah, it's been 5 years and they haven't come through with the goods yet, but hey, it's really good at storing addresses!" ?

Whatever the holdup, if Mr. Schifter was indeed "damn genious (sic) and a true and utter gentleman" he would have apologized, recalled these units, and/or offered a refund a loooong time ago...Enuff said...

Rocket · « **Reply #21 on:** 6 Feb 2005, 06:52 am »

Hi Rob,

Quote

It seems naive to me to buy something based upon what it might later do. By all accounts, even at the asking price it's one of the elite DACs in stock form. I'd imagine that's why a pretty good percentage of the buyers bought it.

The modwright p3a is an excellent dac but i thought the stock dac was average for it's price point.

Regards

Rod

Adam_Reiter · « **Reply #22 on:** 6 Feb 2005, 06:57 am »

Cab, what speakers do you own?

They do have SOCS measurements for Onix Rocket RS-750's and Onix Ref 1's.

I do understand your frustrations... its just too bad you have taken that viewpoint of Mark Schifter as a person. The guy really is pure gold.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #23 on:** 6 Feb 2005, 07:21 am »

Quote from: Rocket

The modwright p3a is an excellent dac but i thought the stock dac was average for it's price point.

Regards

Rod

I imagine every component in the world is considered 'average at it's price point', stock, by someone!

I'm not arguing with you- to each his own. But I think nearly every pro review I've read called it a giant killer in its stock form. And truly elite once modded.

I dunno where Apple would be, Cab. I never saw the (always hyped) press releases. All I've ever went by was the reviews and web material which always clearly called it an upsampler/interpolator & DAC. A few made cursory mention of possible future upgrades, but I didn't realize that's what people were banking on.

At any rate, I'm sure Mark's not the first guy to fail to deliver on time to people's satisfactory. Michael Barnes is a guy who's legendary, too, for missing deadlines. And while I've never met either one, the inability of their company to meet projected ETAs hardly makes them bad guys.

Does it?

cab · « **Reply #24 on:** 6 Feb 2005, 07:46 am »

If you actually go back and re-read the reviews and PT web copy, you will see that the P-1A was actually called a "digital correction engine".

Here, check these:

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/perpetual_p1a_p3a.htm

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_3/perpetual-technologies-p1a-p3a-9-2000.html

http://www.stereotimes.com/acc011601.shtm

And for an unbelievably prescient bit of writing, read this intro from the Stereophile review from 2001..(remember, this was written in 2001!)

"At the Consumer Electronics show in Las Vegas in January 1999, Mark Schifter, erstwhile president of Audio Alchemy, was handing out a press release announcing what seemed like a groundbreaking product from his new company, Perpetual Technologies. The product was the P-1A, a digital-to-digital processor that would do resolution enhancement, loudspeaker correction (amplitude and phase), and room correction—all for less than $1k. It sounded too good to be true.

Four months later, at HI-FI '99, PT actually had a working prototype of the P-1A, and gave an impressive demonstration of its speaker-correction function with the Vandersteen 2Ce. I was told that I'd be getting a review sample as soon as production began, just a few weeks later.

Weeks passed, then months, but still no P-1A. I was starting to think that it might be an example of "vaporware," existing only as a concept and a prototype. However, Mark Schifter continually reassured me that the P-1A was very much a real product, and that the delays in production were caused by revisions in the design to incorporate the latest generation of DSP chips, and to build in more power to do the job even better. PT was also about to introduce a companion piece, the P-3A digital processor, which would do the basic D/A conversion. When would these products be ready? Soon, very soon—maybe just a couple of weeks.

Finally, more than 18 months after the initial product announcement, the P-1A and P-3A review samples appeared on my doorstep. The loudspeaker/room-correction software is still not ready for release..."

Deja vu or what???

He hasn't delivered on time? The problem is he hasn't delivered, period. Unless you happen to own 2 or 3 speaker models that he just happens to also peddle....

Didn't say he was a bad guy, but I would say he is a bad businessman, and that he has no credibility...

Rocket · « **Reply #25 on:** 6 Feb 2005, 10:30 am »

Hi Rob,

Quote

I imagine every component in the world is considered 'average at it's price point', stock, by someone! I'm not arguing with you- to each his own. But I think nearly every pro review I've read called it a giant killer in its stock form. And truly elite once modded.

As i've stated before Rob, i respect your opinion

. I imported my p3a from the states, i think it cost me about $1400au. I compared it to my modded pioneer pds 507 (g&d clock mod, damping mods and iec socket) and to be honest it wasn't any better. I was really disappointed with the sound quality until i was lucky enough to purchase another p3a which was modded by modwright. Wow, that was a huge improvement.

Regards

Rod

Buzz38 · « **Reply #26 on:** 6 Feb 2005, 10:38 am »

Quote from: cab

Didn't say he was a bad guy, but I would say he is a bad businessman, and that he has no credibility...

While I won't agree with the last part of this at all, from what you have stated I can see why you feel that way. For what it's worth, from my point of view after hanging around and actually meeting Mark, you words here will hurt him alot even if it never costs him one sale. It's hard to understand Mark not being willing to give you your money back once you asked for it.

I heard the Ref 1's with SOCS at CES and it more than lives up to the hype in my eyes. There is or was a smoking deal on Ref 1's and a tube amp if your inclined to go that way. Shoot Mark an email and see where it goes. I would understand if your too burnt on it all to try though. Good luck and I hope you get some satisfaction out of it somehow.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #27 on:** 6 Feb 2005, 11:33 am »

I don't doubt you, Rocket. The Modwright mods must be good since they can be purchased thru PerpTech and don't void the warranty- how many modders can say that? And as I said, I've never heard one so I can only go with what I've heard from reviews and guys like you that have them.

Rocket · « **Reply #28 on:** 6 Feb 2005, 12:38 pm »

Hi Rob,

I think it is an indictment on reviewers as i believe you just can't trust what they write. You don't know what there musical preferences are and whether the reviewer has the same musical taste as me.

Although, i am waiting for a ps audio hca -2 amplifier which i'm importing from the states. I haven't heard it, have read professional reviews and also reviews from audiophiles and have decided to take a leap of faith and buy one. It is really hard for me to demo equipment here in perth as we are so isolated and i don't have the opportunity to do so.

Regards

Rod

cab · « **Reply #29 on:** 6 Feb 2005, 03:24 pm »

"It's hard to understand Mark not being willing to give you your money back once you asked for it. "

I am afraid it would cause a "run on the bank"...From what I gather, my feelings are shared by a great many people....

"I would understand if your too burnt on it all to try though."

Very burned out indeed.....But thanks for your kind words...

angelo · « **Reply #30 on:** 6 Feb 2005, 04:26 pm »

i've only been their customer since last year, and based on my experiences dealing with mark it's all good customer service

i'll be very surprised if he don't try to solve your problem if you contact him and explain your problem, atleast tell him how you feel with the product you bought from him... if he can't deliver that then ask him if you can return it or make some arrangement that you think is fair.

i also planned to get SOCS (bought the p-tech gear used last year) then decided to try something else 'till it's actually finished and ready to ship, i understand how you feel and i hope everything goes well, just try to contact him.

angelo

Marbles · « **Reply #31 on:** 6 Feb 2005, 04:35 pm »

After reading this thread

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=5708

more than a year ago, I almost bought the P1a. Thank Christ I didn't......

Adam_Reiter · « **Reply #32 on:** 6 Feb 2005, 04:55 pm »

Don't worry, then SOCS is eventually released, everyone will be beating a path towards the P1a.

If you have actually had the chance to hear it in person, you'd buy it now and wait. The prices on the used market are down, but I dont think they will stay that way once SOCS is out.

Marbles · « **Reply #33 on:** 6 Feb 2005, 05:20 pm »

Well, let's see. $800 ($400 used) for the P1a, $400 for SOCS, and $250 to RENT the remote recording kit (MMK), and $400 for RCS. = $1850 ($1450). You can get a demo DEQX(P) for $2700 and it is much more flexible and a pre-amp! You can get a demo DEQX for $2400(no pre) that is MUCH more flexible, and you get to keep the mic and the recording gear and use it on all speakers/rooms no matter how many times you upgrade speakers or re-arrange the furniture...

Just my feelings, but RCS/SOCS is a wonderful idea, just 4 years too late for the masses. Perp Tech missed the boat and there are better products now, read that more flexible and more powerful, at only a slight premium.

There are also very inexpensive solutions that do almost as much, like the NHT X2 active XO and outboard EQ's.

I guess if you have either of the 2 models that SOCS works on you might be happy, but you are still missing out on RCS, but I'm sure that RCS will be realeased any day now.....

I'm sure Mark is a decent guy and he has brought wonderful bargains to the masses, but I find it hard to beleive anyone could defend him on the P1a/SOCS/RCS issues.

As far as everyone beating a path to the P1a, I'm sure that 4 years of empty promises will see to it that that doesn't happen, unless they give the stuff away....and at this point they should give the software away to anyone that has owned a P1a for more than a year, and they should lend(for free) the recording equipment as well. That wouldn't help Perp Tech recover their investment, but it might help clear their rep....

BradJudy · « **Reply #34 on:** 6 Feb 2005, 05:32 pm »

I agree that the DEQX has more value for many people (Marbles has shown some good numbers). Mark will have to pull out something better for the room correction measurement to demonstrate value (perhaps the right to use the equipment multiple times for that price, or equipment that the customer can keep). He will also have to pull out a good sized 'library' of ready-to-go SOCS programs to demonstrate value for that application as well. The delay has certainly lead Perpetual Tech to an uphill battle (instead of the downhill one of a couple of years ago), but I'm still curious to see how they approach that battle.

Marbles · « **Reply #35 on:** 6 Feb 2005, 05:42 pm »

My mistake on the prices, this is from another thread from September of 2004:

Quote from: Sean Parque

SOCS will be available intally for $399 and going up to $499 within the first couple months of release.

RCS is another piece of software and will be $699 I believe and that will include the measurement kit.

If you change speakers, yes, it will come back to us to be uploaded. RCS...If you move your speakers significantly or change rooms, you will need to re-measure your room. You will not be charged again, your inital purchase comes with three measurments.

Regards,

Sean

So it will be $1100 or $1200 Plus the cost of the P1a (say $400 -450 used) to get 3 measurements.

Sounds like a deal to me

BradJudy · « **Reply #36 on:** 6 Feb 2005, 07:22 pm »

Quote from: Marbles

So it will be $1100 or $1200 Plus the cost of the P1a (say $400 -450 used) to get 3 measurements.

Sounds like a deal to me

For those who have had a static setup for some time and don't plan on rearranging or changing equipment, it does cost less than the DEQX. Value proposition is a very individual thing and if there aren't enough individuals that see a value proposition in your product, it will quickly become unprofitable. The marketplace decides the fates of products and at the moment, DEQX seems to be the new golden child.

mlschifter · « **Reply #37 on:** 6 Feb 2005, 07:24 pm »

Good Afternoon...

Under the weather with a horrible flu-bug...

You can rest assured I will absolutely have lots to say here once I feel a bit better...

I look forward to addressing ALL of the issues brought forth in this thread, and perhaps answering some further questions if need be...

Thanks... and all the best...

mls

mlschifter · « **Reply #38 on:** 6 Feb 2005, 07:30 pm »

Quote from: Marbles

My mistake on the prices, this is from another thread from September of 2004:

So it will be $1100 or $1200 Plus the cost of the P1a (say $400 -450 used) to get 3 measurements.

Sounds like a deal to me

... don't think TOO FAST Marbles... I might just surprise you.

Obviously when we soft launched this a few weeks back we ALL realized that we would have to adjust some of our thinking...

The P-1A still TODAY has more than enough "correction horsepower" (1100mS apatures) --- when one considers PHASE and AMPLITUDE ---necessary to do the job right... We'll prove our point shortly with respect to this... Our hats off to the few that have actually addressed PHASE Correction... but we still have mighty high hopes for our little box...

Should be interesting...

All the best...

mls

mlschifter · « **Reply #39 on:** 6 Feb 2005, 07:35 pm »

Quote from: MGDeWulf

In typical Shifter fashion, the Rocket will be easy to use, effective and inexpensive. One big drawback right now - no software available to run it. Should be out shortly.

Marty

Hi Marty...

Not sure if I'm on the right page here... but the software for R-DES is complete and shipping with the product...

Did you get your sample at the show... (not sure)... We brought 50 units with us for old friends etc. to get a look at and use...

Lovely product... and complete --- ready to ship... We are producing "stock to ship" this and last week to fulfill the early demand...

Hope all is well with you...

All the best...

mls