[stvnharr]

Perhaps my 3D post was not as well written as it could have been.
I would hope that forward firing box speakers have the sound in front of the speakers, as that it how it is radiated out from each speaker.  I didn't mean to give the impression that it was not.

In music listening and audio most everything comes down to personal preference.

However, since this thread is about a particular way of setting speakers in a room, I think a few things stand out to me.
The ways of setting speakers that use audio cues, Sumiko/Master Set, Wilson Audio Speaker Procedure, and Stirling Trayle's way, all have the speaker in roughly the same area of the room and end up with similar results - a near perfect summation of two speakers to be as one. There are still compromises and effects that need to be accounted for, all under room effects. And if one reads the procedures, most of this stuff is addressed somewhat.

[Letitroll98]

I can't see a thing wrong with any of your posts, you explained your 3D experience quite well, we just expanded on it and didn't go in the direction you intended.  And your very polite manner of suggesting we get back on topic is also well done. 

Another big roadblock to adopting Master Set comes from martine when he notes after only 4 of 5 hours he is getting close to achieving what he wants.  I can appreciate all good things come from hard work and time invested, but jeez, 5 hours to get close?  And he's not alone, every description of MS includes long periods of learning the process and performing the adjustments.  This has to be a deterrent to many who just want to plug in the Cardas formula and be done with it.  For myself it's not, I'm still interested and thinking about giving it a try. 

So let's throw out another discussion point, what about diagonal room placement whereby the listeners face a corner?  Does the process change?  Is that a no fly zone?

[stvnharr]

Setting speakers from audio cues is difficult and can be very time consuming. I certainly know all about this. Had I not heard the Master Set sound in person I would be like everyone else, and not really be bothered much to do it. So I certainly understand people not wanting to spend 2-3 hours, or more, setting up their speakers and having difficulty doing it. I wanted to do it enough, so I would do it. I find the end result to be worth the effort.

It is quite easy for me to recommend the audioaficianado post as it made everything much easier for me. However, I was not doing the procedure for the first time, so that makes a real difference. But I think the poster does go in to detail on what to do when/if it gets difficult, which is helpful.

Diagonal placement of speakers in a room is really no different from the more standard placements. Everything is still in play in regard to effects of the room boundaries. The reflection points would certainly be different. I think a lot just depends on the shape and dimensions of the room.

I can only add that the speaker placement ways using a tape measure, while easy to do, tend to not offer much, IMO. I did them in the past, following the instructions to the nth degree. Joachim Gerhard's Audio Physic method is at least based on something, and speakers in the middle of the room do have a particular sound. The Cardas ratios just don't seem to be based on anything and presume one has a completely symmetrically dimensioned room. With these somewhat random placements, great sound can be had with implementation of good dsp.
Then again, implementation of good dsp is not simple and can be very time consuming.

And as noted previous, it truly is all about personal preference.

[Martine]

Hi, Master Set Freaks
I say this jokingly, but have since realized that the music is going to sound "real".
A 2nd attempt I did it yesterday, with the speakers further apart and no toe-in, but could not hear and determine things correctly. It now sounds a lot less, no bass pressure, a bare, less warm middle, and no focus.
I do the placement on the short wall, as can be seen in the photos. I find it difficult how far you have to stay from the side wall, now I think it was too close, or because of the straight placement the middle area is too large. It has become clear that a little toe-in is better for the focus of the soundstage.
It's very difficult to do it alone without a helper, I don't know anyone who wants, understands and can do this.. You always have to slide and listen again, very difficult but worth it! But also in the beginning the Speakers are to close too the frontwall, its about 1/2 foot..
I'm going to try again using the Link from stvnharr in audioaficionado, I hadn't studied this very well yet, it seems very good in detail. However, I still don't quite understand ONE thing. It concerns turning the Speaker for correct too-in application. It talks about the rear-outer point of the Speaker, but is meant here, the pivot point or shift point. Because the bass setting must remain correct. I hope one of you can clarify this very well. I'm decent in English, but just not good enough. Thanks in advance and let you know if another attempt was successful.
I do want to say, that in the past, and that is really 10-20 years, I always shuffle around and try to place the Speakers better. With Cardas, and Wilsen, Hales and a few more with the tape measure etc. This single has already cost me a lot of time and frustration. so I'm really glad I finally gave the MasterSet a chance. Especially partly due to the publications of some of you here on the Forum. I can already tell that the results are better than all that messing around in the past. It doesn't have to be for everyone, but as noted before, it just takes time, patience and perseverance. I am very grateful to the designers of yesteryear and a number of people here on the Forum.
Best regards, Martien  The Netherlands.

[stvnharr]

Martine,
I will try to assist you here, as best I can. I have heard the Master Set as done by the originator, I have done it myself successfully following the steps in the audioaficionado post, and should be able to give you reasonable advise.

First off, I assume you have a copy of the desired track, Ballad of a Runaway Horse. If not, then send me a Personal Message and I can help you out.
Second, I have always done this by myself. Thus I like doing it by myself. You have complete control over everything this way.
Third, follow instructions as to size of the speaker movements. In my situation I can use the piles of the carpet as a measure. But you can also use a tape measure for this if you need to. Many of the movements need to be very small, as in a couple millimeters, which is just a nudge. It's best to not estimate as the movements that way are usually too much.
Fourth, I know you are doing it on the short wall, which makes it all a lot lot harder, but it's not impossible. It's harder because of possible sidewall reflection issues. Wilson does short wall setups and they make note of sidewall reflections and even recommend a certain product. My advise here is to be sure you have the speaker center at least 2 feet out from the sidewall, preferably more. You need to be decoupled from the sidewall!!!! You also have to use toe-in here. You can determine the toe-in from your listening seat as directed in the post.
Fifth, in the initial setup, you might like to turn the right speaker 45 degrees out, rather than straight ahead. I do this, and Rod Tomson recommends this. Also, you can start with the left speaker out in to the room a bit, rather than close to the wall. This will save you some time.
Fourth, as to "marking" a spot....... I put down a strip of wide masking tape on the carpet close to the front inside corner of the speaker. As I move the speaker out and find points to mark. I just mark the tape with a pen.

Now to the Steps:
Part 2, Step One is about setting the anchor speaker. You need to have the volume up as much as possible. This made things much easier for me when I started to do this. The post does not mention moving the left speaker out until all sound comes from just the left speaker. I believe your Bob Robbins instructs do mention this. I think it important as when this happens the speaker is decoupled from the wall behind. This should be roughly 2 feet out into the room. This 2 feet is the front of the speaker, NOT the back. The sound comes from the speaker baffle at the front. The rear of the speaker is irrelevant. Once you reach this point, that is the first place to mark, as now you are ready to begin assessing the bass output. If you have to start over again this is also the point where you can start.
Follow the step instructions as closely as possible. The difference in bass loudness is small. You have to listen very carefully. Nothing is going to jump out at you. You've done the process a few times already so are a bit familiar with the bass line. You just need to be very familiar with this to note any small changes. I like to pay attention to the 12th note of the first verse as that seems to have the most change. I tend to go with what sounds smoothest here. But listen to the whole song and the bass.
Take breaks as needs to rest your ears!!!!!
Once you find "The Spot" for the anchor speaker, I like to run a piece of tape across the rear of the speaker and a it on the outside rear of the speaker so that you have a complete corner marked. This is out of normal sight and is a good reference should the speaker get slightly moved or something.

Part 2 - Step Two, Close the Gate
This is about moving the right speaker out to match the left speaker. Do as best you can per instructions and listen to the bass line. The voice and bass will move to the center pretty quickly. But the more you move the speaker out into the room the center image will just get stronger. This is fairly easy to hear. Get the bass as good as you can, then pay attention to the voice. There is a very small area of moving the speaker where the voice gets really strong. It's an area of only a few millimeters so you have to make small movements to catch it. There is also a point in the song where the voice gets real strong at about 2:30. This is easy to hear and a good point to focus on.
When you think you have found the point of best sound, lean yourself over to the left as far as possible and note if the sound stays centered or moves with you. Also lean to the right and listen the same. If you have the proper spot the sound will stay in the middle. If the sound moves then you have to continue moving the speaker out into the room, or back to the wall until you find "The Spot. This is critical!!!! You are not done until you get this perfect!!!

Part 3... You can safely ignore this step as you are too limited in placement to adjust the speakers.
Last Step......setting the Rake angle is also something you can safely ignore.

Hope this long post helps you.

[Martine]

Hi Steve,
Thank you very much for your detailed response, I will give it a 3rd attempt in a few days. Like the 1st time the Speakers closer together, before I had them with the center at 83 cm from the side wall. They are now too wide, whith a holy in the middle of the sound, also whith forniture in the room. I kept coming up with this size, so why not now. And a little toe-in. Also, you said it, I have to turn up the volume loud enough. It'll be fine, especially with your directions, I'll let you know what the result will be. Thank you again, Martien
>>Edit, Steve, I have the original 24-bit Duets CD, of which I use the first 20 sec, 30x on a USB stick via MP3 player. This afternoon I put the Speakers back on the 1th M.S. place, although perhaps just not exactly, it was immediately told that everything was correct again. Unbelievable: it sounds real again, stage. As ONE Speaker. Spatial stage. Details that were previously inaudible. Still, I'm going to make another 3rd attempt. Martien

[Martine]

Hey,
Yesterday a 3rd M.P. done, however, could be heard immediately, not good, like the 1st. The 2nd attempt was not good by being too far apart from the Speakers. This 3rd was little difference from the 1st attempt. A number of things, such as changes in the bass, were hard to hear. Adjusting the right-speaker correctly to the left-speaker was also not heard correctly. The 1st time M.S. everything could be heard correctly. Also places back to the 1st M.S. cannot be set correctly. At the 1st M.S. I used a very good DigitalAudio converter from my Mark Levinson 309s. However, this is now for repair for the CD player. Unfortunately I have to wait for it to come back. The dimensions of the settings between M.S. 1 and M.S. 3, measured at the Speakers are not more than half to 1 cm. That's how close it is between good and bad. Even reverting to the 1st settings I have not yet correct. This already says something about the correct execution of M.S. You can immediately hear whether it is right or not, from the focus, dynamics and sound. It should really pop out of the speakers. When the Mark Levinson is back I will try again, unfortunately.. The 1st time I got M.S. done, from Steve's quote, the Revisited 2019, on the 1st page of this site, a very good writing. Martien

[stvnharr]

Hi Martine,
You just have to keep at it until you get it just right.
Yes, hearing the bass is hard, but it is how it is. You just get it to the best you think it is, and that is good enough.
Getting the second speaker to match the first is the most critical element. It is a very small spot where this happens, only a few millimeters. Everything should stand out very well when you get this spot right.
Be patient.

Steve

[Martine]

Hi, I'll be back soon and very happy. The measured distances of the 1st M.S. , which I had noted, I checked this morning with extra care. It only differed here and there by 1 or 2 millimeters, really. It was immediately heard, everything is right again. The only thing I have trouble with is the voice in the middle and the size of the voice. For the rest it's really live music again: lots of space, small details in the room, no inclination to skip a song, the bass can be felt in the stomach. the 2 speakers really form a unit by ear. If everything sounds perfect, a few other facts also stand out, the music seems to sound slow and relaxed and you can listen to it for much longer, even at a higher volume.Unbelievable that this has to depend on a few millimeters!! Regards, Martien

[stvnharr]

Congratulations!!!
You have been able to do it! Getting the second speaker to make the perfect match with the first speaker so that they are as ONE, is hard to do. But it is the essence of what this procedure is all about.
It is truly amazing how just a tiny movement can make such a difference in sound.
All the Best,
Steve

[Martine]

Thanks a lot Steve for all the time and care you put into it. It's a very good procedure. My Dialogue's have never given such extensive bass and bass pressure and such a beautiful soundstage. Thanks Steve

[Martine]

Hi Folks,
It's been a while since I posted something. I'm curious if anyone else has taken this seriously. It is still amazing how wonderful and real the music sounds when both speakers sound as one. The great thing is that all sources can now perfectly let themselves be heard. Whether it's the Turntable or the CD player, or an MP3 player, everything is reproduced perfectly. This is by-far the best upgrade!! I know it's not 100% right now, such as the correct size and placement of the voice, but if the bass pressure and the speakers sound as ONE, a lot has already been achieved.

The things that stand out to me in the music in my wording are:
- increased dynamics, a wider frequency range from lower bass to highs without sharpness - more power and pressure in the low and mid-low (body) of sounds - a more spacious image of instruments, making small details more noticeable, both in width and depth - really detached from the speakers - tendency to play louder because it sounds so good - more sounding out (extinction) - less boredom - no listening fatigue - more calm - not intrusive - music seems slower, you want it out of the speakers draw - really natural sounding of the music with more emotion ! As music is meant to be...
 
Many thanks to Steve, Bob Robbins and Guy Stuff and several other people.
Best regards, Martien

[Martine]

Hi, I'll tell you how good this upgrade is. A number of people talk about the time it takes to get close to perfection. However it is worth it. It is not only good in the center. Usually I sit on one side of the couch, a little closer to 1 speaker, at least 6 meters further away from the speakers. A live recording of e.g. a good piece of Blues, John Mayall, Eric Clapton, etc, but also the 9e off Beethoven is, phenomenal.! It sounds when they are really in your room. Do not forget that you first set up 1 speaker ideally in the room, stated on the bass pressure. This is then an acoustic loss of the room, and separate from the other 2nd loudspeaker, so not disturbed by the effects of the room. Then you go the other 2nd speaker overview on the 1st speaker. When this is ideal, they sound like ONE speaker, unimaginable. Wherever you are in your room, it sounds like ONE whole, with space, depth, with more focus and dynamics. The music is hardly influenced by the effects of the space, it comes out of the loudspeakers with force and pressure in the low, mid-low and live to the high tones. A lead guitar, man it's just real. Drums have power and pressure, as they should be. You want/can turn it up because it fatigues much less, because it is real. I may seem crazy, but I missed this for years, that's how music should sound. Yes, just our ears can recognize everything in a natural tone. It's not perfect, the trunk in the middle could be better and also the right size, but that's a small point that doesn't stand out. What is striking is the authenticity and dynamics of the music in the room, wide and separate from the speakers, with depth and signature that you cannot achieve otherwise. I hope to surprise more people with this as it is very nice your music sounds as it is intended. And if you put a better cable somewhere or a nicer Amp, better speakers, it might sound better. But if you can't arrange the placement of the speakers as well as possible, the upgrades are disappointing.
THIS is and remains the best upgrade!!   Regards, Martien

[stvnharr]

Hi Martien,
Great write-up!!!!

Steve

[Martine]

Hi,
Just an additional note. Especially for Steve, as a result of the photos you asked what is hanging in front of the window, witch is the backwall behind the speakers. This is a thin curtain, net curtains. I already answered this. However in the  evening I lower Luxaflex in front of the window and curtain, against a view. I have noticed a few times that it sounds much less in the evening as a whole. So this is because of the Luxaflex, I found out. As soon as I pull it back up, the good stage is back. This concerns the influence of the wall/window behind the speakers, which is very important. As a result, the distance from the speakers to that wall is no longer correct, and has a lot of influence on the entire display. I don't know if everyone knows what Luxaflex is, these are 2 cm plastic slats that you can open and close. You can pull them up with a cord and lower them in front of the window. I hope this is clear, I didn't want to withhold this comment from you.
Best regards, Martien     

[stvnharr]

New November 2022

The post below supercedes all previous posts in this thread about Master Set. I have done my best to clean up my previous postings to eliminate any discrepancies.
This is a set of DIY instructions for those people interesting in trying this procedure for themselves. This is all based on the actual Sumiko instructions that became Master Set. The actual Sumiko instructions can be found in the audioaficianado link. However AA now has a paywall and I respect this. Subscribing is not expensive however, if you wish to read the actual instructions.

BEGINNINGS
1. Listen to the song Ballad of a Runaway Horse and get familiar with it. Try to get a reference for how this song sounds to you in your present speaker layout. This procedure is all about audio cues and hearing small changes in the song. It helps to have a reference at the very beginning.

2. The beginning speaker layout has the speakers flat up against the wall in with their usual spacing. The listening position can be a couple feet behind the triangle point with the speakers from this setting. Keep in mind that the speakers will end up coming into the room a couple feet or more and you want to position yourself a bit behind the final triangle point with the speakers. That will work best.

3. Take a moment and just observe the listening room layout with regards the left-right symmetry of the room. This may helps you later on if you have issues of any kind.

4. Play the song LOUD, louder than normal listening level.

STEP ONE
This is known as Setting the Anchor Speaker in Master Set. This involves setting the left speaker as a reference point in a position so as to give the best and smoothest bass response.
You start by playing the song set on repeat. You may turn the right speaker out 45 degrees as I find this helps. Then you move the left speaker perpendicularly into the room until ALL sound seems to come just from this left speaker. This will occur when the speaker baffle is about 2 feet into the room. At this point you can put a piece of masking tape behind the speaker on the floor as this is a kind of beginning point. Also, adjust the toe in of the speaker so that you have what you want. I find it best to keep the toe in to a minimum. But do it now and keep the toe in the same as you move along.

Now the procedure really begins. Move the speaker out into the room another 2-3 inches and place the piece of tape behind the speaker. This is the true beginning point that you can refer back to if you need to do a reset at any time. Also place a long piece of masking tape along the inner front corner of the speaker and place it perpendicular to the wall behind. This will help you keep the movements straight and give you something to make the needed markings on. Then move the speaker in very small increment, about 1/8th inch, and listen to ONLY the bass line. The Sumiko instructions note that you should listen to BASS PRESSURE. Do the best that you can. The bass line is easiest to listen to in the first minute of the song and I do most of my bass line listening in this portion of the song. At the very first position just listen to the bass a couple times and get real familiar with it. You will be listening for changes to this reference as you go along. With each speaker movement note any change you think you hear. Changes tend to be small and subtle so you have to listen hard. Note any change as in a quieter note or a louder/twangy note. The Sumiko instructions state, "What to look for: Your priorities in the step are 1) Bass output - Is it louder? 2) Bass Extension - Does it go lower? 3) Bass Linearity - Can I hear all the notes?" Do the best you can with this in mind is all I can tell you.
My experience is that I mostly only hear changes in the 12th bass note of the first verse of the song. The changes go from smooth to slightly loud/twangy. Your experience may vary.
The final position you select should be the one that gives the smoothest bass while hearing all notes and none of them twangy. When you think you are happy take some masking tape and tape all around the speaker. Or at a minimum, tape at the rear of the speaker and the outside so as to from a tape corner point on the rear outside corner of the speaker. Then check the top of the speaker for level, and measure the distance to the wall from the two rear corners. Write these measurements down on paper. This establishes the speaker position. When you put the spikes back under the speaker make sure the speaker position matches the taped corner and the measurements, EXACTLY.
I find that you can now put the speaker spikes back under the speaker and consider the Anchor speaker to be set, and never moved from this position.

STEP TWO
This is known as Closing the Gate. This is a step where you move the right speaker into the room so as to match the bass pressure of the Anchor speaker which will then firm up everything that is desired.
Now move the right speaker out into the room from the position against the wall. Be sure to have the same amount of toe-in as in the anchor speaker. You can start by moving it a few inches. You will note that the voice sound will quickly center itself between the speakers, even with the right speaker still not very far out into the room. However, final speaker position will be somewhat the same distance out into the room as the Anchor speaker, so keep moving the right speaker out until you are about 3-4  inches from the distance as the Anchor speaker. Then do as before with the anchor speaker with tape behind and along the inner front corner. And as before now move the speaker in small 1/8th increments listening to the bass pressure, if possible. When you near the matching point the bass will get slightly stronger, as will the voice. But in general you will not hear any change in anything with most movements. The voice will stay centered and the bass will stay the same. It is only at the matching point will there be any changes. And if you move too far into the room the voice will move to the right and get a bit less. IF this should happen then move the speaker back about an inch and place a piece of tape across the front of the speaker, and go back to the starting point. The matching point will be somewhere around the middle of the 2 pieces of tape, so that can help you narrow the search area.
At the matching point you should note a stronger bass line, or increase in bass pressure, and a stronger vocal line. The bass can be heard throughout the song. The best place to hear a stronger voice line is at about 2:25 to 2:35 in the song.
When you think you are near the matching point make smaller movements with the speaker, 1/16th, or just a small nudge, is all that is needed. You are searching for a spot that is no bigger than 1/8th inch, so it is easy to miss.
If you think you find this matching point, then confirm by doing the following:
Lean yourself way to the left and then over to the right. Only listen to the bass pressure. Note if it is the same on each side. If not, then note how the right side compares to the left. If right is louder, then move the right speaker towards the wall. If right speaker is lesser, then move the right speaker out more. At the matching point the bass pressure will be the same when you do these leaning movements.
Then when you succeed here, a good double check to do is the following:
Play a mono recording, any mono recording will do. The sound should be fully centered during the leaning test as above. For a further check sit over in front of the right speaker and note the position of the mono sound. It should stay centered. It will stay centered if you have succeeded in finding the matching point.
The next thing you can do is to move the right speaker laterally about 1 inch and either way will do. Listen to the size of the voice and how/if it hanges when you do this lateral movement. Ideally the voice should be 3-4 inches wide.
Then when you are happy, do as with the anchor speaker regarding tape corner and distance measure to the wall, and replace the spikes under the speaker.

THAT IS IT
The Sumiko instructions have 2 more additional fine tuning steps. They are even more difficult and are not really needed. You can consider yourself DONE.

FINAL NOTES
This is all not easy. It took me a long time to get success in this. I have tried to include as many helpful notes as I can in the posting. The audio cues and changes you are listening for are subtle and hard to hear. They do not just jump out at you. You may very well do everything in the instructions and never hear anything different. This is actually quite common, and it has happened to me. You then have to start over. That is why I mention some tape placings as beginning points It will likely happen the first time you do the Anchor point step after getting all the sound to the left speaker.
It gets even harder in Closing the Gate step. If/when this gets hard and repeating doesn't seem to work, STOP and take a break. Go back and watch the You Tube video from Co Guy. That video can get quite helpful.

[Letitroll98]

Thanks so much for the post, very appreciated.  I'm redoing the audio room after a couple disasters and I'm thinking about a corner placement.  How does master set work for that and would you recommend any changes.

[stvnharr]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Corner Placement". Do you mean like a Klipschorn in the corner?
If so, that would not be good as the speakers would be fully coupled to both walls and the walls would be the speaker baffle. Unless the speakers are designed for that, it would not be so good.
At least that is my thought, since you asked.

[timind]

Thanks so much for the post, very appreciated.  I'm redoing the audio room after a couple disasters and I'm thinking about a corner placement.  How does master set work for that and would you recommend any changes.

Or do you mean speakers in a diagonal setup? That's what I got from your question.

Curious how this would affect the master setup.

[Letitroll98]

Or do you mean speakers in a diagonal setup? That's what I got from your question.

Curious how this would affect the master setup.

Diagonal, yes, not corner like Allison or Klipschorns. Duh.  I'm redoing the listening room, I may or may not change to diagonal.  I'm more likely to try the master set the way it is.  I had it dialed in really well before things went south.  But if someone's tried it on the diagonal I might give it a go.

Since I had Maggie's years ago I became a placement guru.  I sold the Maggie's and bought the Meadowlarks so I wouldn't be trying a new placement every week.  Master Set is the only one I haven't tried yet.