Master Set Revisited - 2019

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stvnharr

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Re: Master Set Revisited - 2019
« Reply #60 on: 24 Nov 2021, 07:19 am »
Perhaps my 3D post was not as well written as it could have been.
I would hope that forward firing box speakers have the sound in front of the speakers, as that it how it is radiated out from each speaker.  I didn't mean to give the impression that it was not.

In music listening and audio most everything comes down to personal preference.

However, since this thread is about a particular way of setting speakers in a room, I think a few things stand out to me.
The ways of setting speakers that use audio cues, Sumiko/Master Set, Wilson Audio Speaker Procedure, and Stirling Trayle's way, all have the speaker in roughly the same area of the room and end up with similar results - a near perfect summation of two speakers to be as one. There are still compromises and effects that need to be accounted for, all under room effects. And if one reads the procedures, most of this stuff is addressed somewhat.

Letitroll98

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Re: Master Set Revisited - 2019
« Reply #61 on: 24 Nov 2021, 12:57 pm »
I can't see a thing wrong with any of your posts, you explained your 3D experience quite well, we just expanded on it and didn't go in the direction you intended.  And your very polite manner of suggesting we get back on topic is also well done. 

Another big roadblock to adopting Master Set comes from martine when he notes after only 4 of 5 hours he is getting close to achieving what he wants.  I can appreciate all good things come from hard work and time invested, but jeez, 5 hours to get close?  And he's not alone, every description of MS includes long periods of learning the process and performing the adjustments.  This has to be a deterrent to many who just want to plug in the Cardas formula and be done with it.  For myself it's not, I'm still interested and thinking about giving it a try. 

So let's throw out another discussion point, what about diagonal room placement whereby the listeners face a corner?  Does the process change?  Is that a no fly zone?

stvnharr

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Re: Master Set Revisited - 2019
« Reply #62 on: 25 Nov 2021, 07:35 am »
Setting speakers from audio cues is difficult and can be very time consuming. I certainly know all about this. Had I not heard the Master Set sound in person I would be like everyone else, and not really be bothered much to do it. So I certainly understand people not wanting to spend 2-3 hours, or more, setting up their speakers and having difficulty doing it. I wanted to do it enough, so I would do it. I find the end result to be worth the effort.

It is quite easy for me to recommend the audioaficianado post as it made everything much easier for me. However, I was not doing the procedure for the first time, so that makes a real difference. But I think the poster does go in to detail on what to do when/if it gets difficult, which is helpful.

Diagonal placement of speakers in a room is really no different from the more standard placements. Everything is still in play in regard to effects of the room boundaries. The reflection points would certainly be different. I think a lot just depends on the shape and dimensions of the room.

I can only add that the speaker placement ways using a tape measure, while easy to do, tend to not offer much, IMO. I did them in the past, following the instructions to the nth degree. Joachim Gerhard's Audio Physic method is at least based on something, and speakers in the middle of the room do have a particular sound. The Cardas ratios just don't seem to be based on anything and presume one has a completely symmetrically dimensioned room. With these somewhat random placements, great sound can be had with implementation of good dsp.
Then again, implementation of good dsp is not simple and can be very time consuming.

And as noted previous, it truly is all about personal preference.
« Last Edit: 25 Nov 2021, 10:47 pm by stvnharr »

Martine

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Re: Master Set Revisited - 2019
« Reply #63 on: 30 Nov 2021, 02:18 pm »
Hi, Master Set Freaks
I say this jokingly, but have since realized that the music is going to sound "real".
A 2nd attempt I did it yesterday, with the speakers further apart and no toe-in, but could not hear and determine things correctly. It now sounds a lot less, no bass pressure, a bare, less warm middle, and no focus.
I do the placement on the short wall, as can be seen in the photos. I find it difficult how far you have to stay from the side wall, now I think it was too close, or because of the straight placement the middle area is too large. It has become clear that a little toe-in is better for the focus of the soundstage.
It's very difficult to do it alone without a helper, I don't know anyone who wants, understands and can do this.. You always have to slide and listen again, very difficult but worth it! But also in the beginning the Speakers are to close too the frontwall, its about 1/2 foot..
I'm going to try again using the Link from stvnharr in audioaficionado, I hadn't studied this very well yet, it seems very good in detail. However, I still don't quite understand ONE thing. It concerns turning the Speaker for correct too-in application. It talks about the rear-outer point of the Speaker, but is meant here, the pivot point or shift point. Because the bass setting must remain correct. I hope one of you can clarify this very well. I'm decent in English, but just not good enough. Thanks in advance and let you know if another attempt was successful.
I do want to say, that in the past, and that is really 10-20 years, I always shuffle around and try to place the Speakers better. With Cardas, and Wilsen, Hales and a few more with the tape measure etc. This single has already cost me a lot of time and frustration. so I'm really glad I finally gave the MasterSet a chance. Especially partly due to the publications of some of you here on the Forum. I can already tell that the results are better than all that messing around in the past. It doesn't have to be for everyone, but as noted before, it just takes time, patience and perseverance. I am very grateful to the designers of yesteryear and a number of people here on the Forum.
Best regards, Martien  The Netherlands.
« Last Edit: 1 Dec 2021, 12:01 pm by Martine »

stvnharr

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Re: Master Set Revisited - 2019
« Reply #64 on: 1 Dec 2021, 11:35 pm »
Martine,
I will try to assist you here, as best I can. I have heard the Master Set as done by the originator, I have done it myself successfully following the steps in the audioaficionado post, and should be able to give you reasonable advise.

First off, I assume you have a copy of the desired track, Ballad of a Runaway Horse. If not, then send me a Personal Message and I can help you out.
Second, I have always done this by myself. Thus I like doing it by myself. You have complete control over everything this way.
Third, follow instructions as to size of the speaker movements. In my situation I can use the piles of the carpet as a measure. But you can also use a tape measure for this if you need to. Many of the movements need to be very small, as in a couple millimeters, which is just a nudge. It's best to not estimate as the movements that way are usually too much.
Fourth, I know you are doing it on the short wall, which makes it all a lot lot harder, but it's not impossible. It's harder because of possible sidewall reflection issues. Wilson does short wall setups and they make note of sidewall reflections and even recommend a certain product. My advise here is to be sure you have the speaker center at least 2 feet out from the sidewall, preferably more. You need to be decoupled from the sidewall!!!! You also have to use toe-in here. You can determine the toe-in from your listening seat as directed in the post.
Fifth, in the initial setup, you might like to turn the right speaker 45 degrees out, rather than straight ahead. I do this, and Rod Tomson recommends this. Also, you can start with the left speaker out in to the room a bit, rather than close to the wall. This will save you some time.
Fourth, as to "marking" a spot....... I put down a strip of wide masking tape on the carpet close to the front inside corner of the speaker. As I move the speaker out and find points to mark. I just mark the tape with a pen.

Now to the Steps:
Part 2, Step One is about setting the anchor speaker. You need to have the volume up as much as possible. This made things much easier for me when I started to do this. The post does not mention moving the left speaker out until all sound comes from just the left speaker. I believe your Bob Robbins instructs do mention this. I think it important as when this happens the speaker is decoupled from the wall behind. This should be roughly 2 feet out into the room. This 2 feet is the front of the speaker, NOT the back. The sound comes from the speaker baffle at the front. The rear of the speaker is irrelevant. Once you reach this point, that is the first place to mark, as now you are ready to begin assessing the bass output. If you have to start over again this is also the point where you can start.
Follow the step instructions as closely as possible. The difference in bass loudness is small. You have to listen very carefully. Nothing is going to jump out at you. You've done the process a few times already so are a bit familiar with the bass line. You just need to be very familiar with this to note any small changes. I like to pay attention to the 12th note of the first verse as that seems to have the most change. I tend to go with what sounds smoothest here. But listen to the whole song and the bass.
Take breaks as needs to rest your ears!!!!!
Once you find "The Spot" for the anchor speaker, I like to run a piece of tape across the rear of the speaker and a it on the outside rear of the speaker so that you have a complete corner marked. This is out of normal sight and is a good reference should the speaker get slightly moved or something.

Part 2 - Step Two, Close the Gate
This is about moving the right speaker out to match the left speaker. Do as best you can per instructions and listen to the bass line. The voice and bass will move to the center pretty quickly. But the more you move the speaker out into the room the center image will just get stronger. This is fairly easy to hear. Get the bass as good as you can, then pay attention to the voice. There is a very small area of moving the speaker where the voice gets really strong. It's an area of only a few millimeters so you have to make small movements to catch it. There is also a point in the song where the voice gets real strong at about 2:30. This is easy to hear and a good point to focus on.
When you think you have found the point of best sound, lean yourself over to the left as far as possible and note if the sound stays centered or moves with you. Also lean to the right and listen the same. If you have the proper spot the sound will stay in the middle. If the sound moves then you have to continue moving the speaker out into the room, or back to the wall until you find "The Spot. This is critical!!!! You are not done until you get this perfect!!!

Part 3... You can safely ignore this step as you are too limited in placement to adjust the speakers.
Last Step......setting the Rake angle is also something you can safely ignore.

Hope this long post helps you.